Which TIG?

admin

Im sure this topic has been beat to death but I'm looking for a tig welder for home.. nothing to fancy but I do want aluminum capability..I was set on the diversion 165 for its simplicity and mostly price. As usual came across some cheaper offshore welders for less money with more bells and whistles. Does anyone have an opinons on the dx200 that everlast sells?The extra 35 amps would be nice along with the features, (pulse, a/c balance, ECT.) but the obvious concerns of buying a chinese machine are present.. even tho Im sure half the miller is made offshore anywaysAny Help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks
Reply:Originally Posted by deanlerIm sure this topic has been beat to death but I'm looking for a tig welder for home.. nothing to fancy but I do want aluminum capability..I was set on the diversion 165 for its simplicity and mostly price. As usual came across some cheaper offshore welders for less money with more bells and whistles. Does anyone have an opinons on the dx200 that everlast sells?The extra 35 amps would be nice along with the features, (pulse, a/c balance, ECT.) but the obvious concerns of buying a chinese machine are present.. even tho Im sure half the miller is made offshore anywaysAny Help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks
Reply:Originally Posted by deanlerThe extra 35 amps would be nice along with the features, (pulse, a/c balance, ECT.) but the obvious concerns of buying a chinese machine are present.. even tho Im sure half the miller is made offshore anywaysAny Help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks
Reply:PowerTig 250EX video review series:http://www.everlastgenerators.com/fo...719-post1.htmlPowerPro 256 video review series:http://www.everlastgenerators.com/fo...-reveiw-2.htmlCertain users on this board just like to troll. I have a 250EX, and its a great machine.Millermatic 251Spectrum 300 PlasmaEverlast PowerTig 250EXEverlast PowerCool W300Harris / Victor OACraftsman 13 Speed Drill PressProTools Air/Hydraulic Bender48" BrakeCompressor, Notchers, Grinders, etc.
Reply:Well, not trolling here, but from a personal standpoint, I would buy the Miller.  I would buy it for the following reasons:1.  I'm just a hobby welder, but when I need something or have an issue, the local Miller rep will actually drive out to my house here in WA to help me out...basically, their service is awsome2.  Miller welders are made in the USA in WI3.  China actually imports quite a few miller welders instead of using the welders made in country4.  For any warranty issues, I just take my welders down to the local AirGas and they deal with it...I don't have to ship the welder anywhere5.  I honestly think that Miller produces a better machine period.  It's not that the Everlast machine isn't a decent machine...just that the Miller is better which translates to better welds and the welder holds it's value better.  Of course, it does cost more, however, the cost is well worth it in my mind and experience.just my 2 cents.  I'm not against Everlast...but I am for Miller for the reasons stated above.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Originally Posted by RugarPowerTig 250EX video review series:http://www.everlastgenerators.com/fo...719-post1.htmlPowerPro 256 video review series:http://www.everlastgenerators.com/fo...-reveiw-2.htmlCertain users on this board just like to troll. I have a 250EX, and its a great machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardCertain users of this board just like to give jobs to China and screw their neighbors.
Reply:I have a Everlast 200DX and have been very satisfied with it.I am not a professional welder and don"t have a budget for a Miller simple as that.It was either do without or buy a cheaper machine that in my opinion has performed beyond my expectations.Do as I did and buy what you want and can afford its your money.The guys on here will make you feel like you starved some poor Miller employee's children but I bet if you looked deeper into it there is some Miller CEO with a million dollar home and a couple of $100,000 dollar cars that could give a rats *** about the employee's that work for him as long as he stays rich.
Reply:I have a hobart EZ Tig, which is exactly the Miller diversion 165, but for quite a bit cheaper, and it comes with a foot pedal.It is ridiculously easy to use, but also does a great job IMO.
Reply:Originally Posted by sixturbosixThe guys on here will make you feel like you starved some poor Miller employee's children but I bet if you looked deeper into it there is some Miller CEO with a million dollar home and a couple of $100,000 dollar cars that could give a rats *** about the employee's that work for him as long as he stays rich.
Reply:i can recommend a Thermal Arc arcmaster 185 tig... ive had mine for 4 yrs, its a nice machine. thermal arc is owned by thermaldyne which owns tweco,victor, thermal dynamics, cigweld,arcair..i might be wrong, but i think thermaldyne is based in chesterfield missouri..Last edited by brucer; 11-04-2010 at 05:25 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by djuosnteisnI have a hobart EZ Tig, which is exactly the Miller diversion 165, but for quite a bit cheaper, and it comes with a foot pedal.It is ridiculously easy to use, but also does a great job IMO.
Reply:Hi guys, i'm new here , I've been a welder for almost 5 years now, mostly Tig stainless.I see this dispute about everlast vs a brand name welder, well i must say i never tried everlast, i think it sells in europe under a diffrent name Freetech or something like that. This freetech i have used only once an it died under industrial conditions in less then a week, whyle it was working it( I ) produced good quality welds and the HF worked well.I think all the fuss about everlast is that it works as advertised, i never saw a review from a guy who put the everlast at work in hard conditions (milk factory at 35-40+ celsius) 6 hours+ arc time/day if not 2 or even 3 shifts working on the same machine , now that will put a machine to work.I would chose a second hand miller or lincoln over an everlast any time, if not for the economy support then for the quality and resale value and the ensurance it will not fail when u need it most.
Reply:I thinks some of you guys are missing the point. Most of the people asking about Everlast (or other imported) welder are just hobbyists or weekend warriors. These people aren't welding in subzero conditions, 8+ hours a day and if something stops working need it back up and running immediately. Some of you guys put more hours on a Miller in a week than some of these Everlast welders will see in a year. In that case, and with cost being a big factor in whether or not he will even be able to get a welder, I'm sure you can understand why some people would look at them.Campbell Hausfeld Fluxcore 80Thermal Arc 185Millermatic 250JD Squared model 32 bender
Reply:@gtcway sure i understand, the price is so low and u get so many controls and extras , like foot pedal included in the package etc. and they do work. And then Miller and Lincoln are not that expensive , they are 20-40% cheaper then a similar product from a german or sweeds top product . It's somehow frustrating that anybody with 1,5k can have an 200A AC/DC welder, damn i payed more then twice for my 170A ....@deanler , man , any machine will give good results, nice beads etc , that is not the point, if a weld is bad 100% of the time is because of the operator ,not the machine.
Reply:Well said, DSW.Not to mention: you get what you pay for.  Go miller & you will be happy for years to come.I buy American products because my American clients in turn support my American business, which enables me to buy more American products.  I know, it's a terrible cycle but not one I'm about to end anytime soon.I have an American childto support & put through college.  No Chinese ones...Buy American, or don't whine when you end up on the bread line.
Reply:I was reading a similar thread on another site, but the machine being discussed was an English Wheel. The consensus seemed to be that the Asian import ones are all crap and that the only proper one is made of cast iron and must weigh in excess of 1,000 pounds and cost at least 3K, anything less is not a proper English WheelNear the end of the thread one poster included a link to an interview of Ron Covell, the metal shaping whiz who created many of the Boyd Coddington custom cars bodies.His comments were interesting, really dead opposite to the collective wisdom of all the posters.He owns a giant cast iron English wheel and rarely uses it. Instead he finds he can do nearly anything he needs to on a much smaller steel framed unit which is much quicker to use due to its quick release top roller. He also  pointed out that pound for pound steel is 2.5 times as rigid as cast iron!He had no problem with the Asian E.Ws as he felt the most important thing was to " buy one you can afford and get shaping metal!"Really it's much the same with welding, as long as the machine is working as designed it will do the job, the rest is up to the operator, so buy whatever you can afford and get at it.I wouldn't rule out older transformer machines either, just look at the work done by Zapster, ZTFab and others here on their older, often very basic transformer welders.It is obvious that the quality of weld has more to do with the ability of the tradesman doing the work than whether it is done on an X,Y or Z brand of machine.Last edited by worntorn; 11-04-2010 at 11:08 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by deanlerI would actually buy the ez-tig if I decided to go that route for the foot pedal..  have you done any aluminum with yours and if so what were the results like?  Don't suppose you have any pictures of some beads
Reply:Originally Posted by djuosnteisnWorks wonderful on aluminum.  Easy to start and has a post flow timer to keep the gas over your weld while it cools.Here's some beads i did last week or so:The whole reason i bought it was for aluminum welding, and i'm very happy with the results.  The main limitation at this point is simply my welding skills hahahaha.
Reply:Originally Posted by gtcwayDo you always go out of your way to buy American made products when it often means paying double or more? If you do, I salute you, a true patriot.I think everyone who comes here looking for advice on buying a welder, would prefer to buy a Miller or Lincoln. But not everyone can afford to spend so much more. If you're a professional, using the welder every day to make a living, then it is easy to recover the extra expense. For the hobbyist, unless wealthy, spending so much money is very difficult.
Reply:Originally Posted by gtcwayI thinks some of you guys are missing the point. Most of the people asking about Everlast (or other imported) welder are just hobbyists or weekend warriors. These people aren't welding in subzero conditions, 8+ hours a day and if something stops working need it back up and running immediately. Some of you guys put more hours on a Miller in a week than some of these Everlast welders will see in a year. In that case, and with cost being a big factor in whether or not he will even be able to get a welder, I'm sure you can understand why some people would look at them.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardYou are the one missing the point. Save your country and quit spending money on junk that will kill the USA.
Reply:The chinese stuff has come up alot in quality in the last couple years so I was merely asking if anyone had experience of problems with the everlast machines because I do know of some people that have had great success with them. I was hesitant at first when I bought my lathe and mill because they were offshore (flame away) but was very impressed with them for the most part.. If an offshore welder was as good to me as my mill/lathe I would buy one in a heartbeat
Reply:maybe these american companies need to drop their prices a little more... seems like they have some.. the 165 amp millers and lincolns in the same amperage seem to be a little cheaper than they were a few years ago...  each american company miller and lincoln need to put out an economy tig unit like the hobart, and i mean a unit with the amperage and also a price point to compete, just to hit that level in the market... when i bought my ta185 i almost got the hobart econotig outfit, but i looked hard on the internet about info on the thermal arc and at the time i couldnt find any negative info about them, so i went with the ta185..
Reply:Part of the reason that most American brand welders cost more is due to the fact that they are just better pieces of equipment.  It costs more to make a machine with better components that holds up to more demanding use.  Miller had contemplated producing a value priced machine back sometime ago, but came to the conclusion that it would dilute the brand itself since the value priced machine would have to be of a lower quality in order to meet the value price point.  Lincoln offers most of their lower end machines in either MIG or Stick and not TIG.  Hobart is made in the US, but isn't valued as a brand/quality as highly as Miller...  If I had to go with a lower end machine (I try not to though...even as a hobbyist, I tend to kill lower quality tools pretty quickly) I would go with a Hobart since they're at least made in the US.  The only way I would buy a Chinese piece of equipment is if it were going to be used so lightly as to be almost a throw-away purchase.  Much like going to Harbor Freight in order to buy any tool I really only need to use once or twice before it breaks and then I'll never need to use it again.Again, just my 2c.  I tend to find that buying quality to start with keeps me from spending more money.  If I buy something lower end and cheaper, I find that once it breaks I have to replace it with the higher end system anyways.  I'd rather not waste the money on the lower end tool and then buy the higher end tool after that one breaks...just doesn't make any fiscal sense.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellowdeanler,You come on the board (4 posts) and ask what tig to buy.You don't like the opinions some posters give.My experience says that guys who enter the "welding field", especially tig, with an attitude like your's will never become proficient with tig welding in the first place.  They have the wrong attitude towards the time and effort it will take to become good tig welders.With that said, go buy yourself one of those Chinese welders and put it to work.  When it "lets the blue smoke out", remember we told you so.You asked for opinions.  You got them.  You didn't like what you heard.I'd say it's time for you to GTFOH.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermute...Again, just my 2c.  I tend to find that buying quality to start with keeps me from spending more money.  If I buy something lower end and cheaper, I find that once it breaks I have to replace it with the higher end system anyways.  I'd rather not waste the money on the lower end tool and then buy the higher end tool after that one breaks...just doesn't make any fiscal sense.--Wintermute
Reply:Originally Posted by deanlerI think you've proved your point about 6 times already, buy in america blah blah blah.
Reply:What do yall know and/or think about  Longevity combo welder...weldall?Sorry to interupt.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIdeanler,You come on the board (4 posts) and ask what tig to buy.You don't like the opinions some posters give.My experience says that guys who enter the "welding field", especially tig, with an attitude like your's will never become proficient with tig welding in the first place.  They have the wrong attitude towards the time and effort it will take to become good tig welders.With that said, go buy yourself one of those Chinese welders and put it to work.  When it "lets the blue smoke out", remember we told you so.You asked for opinions.  You got them.  You didn't like what you heard.I'd say it's time for you to GTFOH.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardWhen you have no job no prospect for a job and are begging the government for food you might change your tune, then again you might just move to China.  Excuse excuse excuse.   I don't think you get to decide how, where, when, what or who I post or reply to. If you don't like what I post use the "ignore" feature and you'll never see my avatar again. But do not attempt to tell me that I can't.... I will.  Flames you want flames you get.This has nothing to do with the quality of a foreign manufacture, it has everything to do with saving my country. I see this as truly un American. I see communism as a threat to my way of life, my freedom. Feeding China our dollars is feeding the communists, they get stronger we get weaker. The goal of all communists states is the abolishment of all free capitalists. In China women are second class at best, all information and knowledge is state controlled.  Google, Yahoo and Bing are heavily censored. Protest of the state is outlawed. Why would you support this?   I see this as all connected, buying Chinese junk and my freedom, I don't know how anyone could not see it the same. That you see it as something other than me defending my freedom is sad.
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermutePart of the reason that most American brand welders cost more is due to the fact that they are just better pieces of equipment.  It costs more to make a machine with better components that holds up to more demanding use.  Miller had contemplated producing a value priced machine back sometime ago, but came to the conclusion that it would dilute the brand itself since the value priced machine would have to be of a lower quality in order to meet the value price point.  Lincoln offers most of their lower end machines in either MIG or Stick and not TIG.  Hobart is made in the US, but isn't valued as a brand/quality as highly as Miller...  If I had to go with a lower end machine (I try not to though...even as a hobbyist, I tend to kill lower quality tools pretty quickly) I would go with a Hobart since they're at least made in the US.  The only way I would buy a Chinese piece of equipment is if it were going to be used so lightly as to be almost a throw-away purchase.  Much like going to Harbor Freight in order to buy any tool I really only need to use once or twice before it breaks and then I'll never need to use it again.Again, just my 2c.  I tend to find that buying quality to start with keeps me from spending more money.  If I buy something lower end and cheaper, I find that once it breaks I have to replace it with the higher end system anyways.  I'd rather not waste the money on the lower end tool and then buy the higher end tool after that one breaks...just doesn't make any fiscal sense.--Wintermute
Reply:Originally Posted by deanlerIs hobart owned by miller? the diversion 165 is the exact same as the hobart ez tig 165
Reply:Originally Posted by brucermaybe these american companies need to drop their prices a little more... seems like they have some.. the 165 amp millers and lincolns in the same amperage seem to be a little cheaper than they were a few years ago...  each american company miller and lincoln need to put out an economy tig unit like the hobart, and i mean a unit with the amperage and also a price point to compete, just to hit that level in the market... when i bought my ta185 i almost got the hobart econotig outfit, but i looked hard on the internet about info on the thermal arc and at the time i couldnt find any negative info about them, so i went with the ta185..
Reply:Originally Posted by deanlerthanks for posting that.. do you think the 3/16s recomended thickness is pretty accurate? A couple people have told me that you'll need more than 165 amps do do aluminum that thick.. but also stated that pre-heat goes a long way
Reply:Originally Posted by deanlerIs hobart owned by miller? the diversion 165 is the exact same as the hobart ez tig 165
Reply:Originally Posted by deanlerThe fact is that this thread was about 2 welders.. both of which fat bastard had no expierence with, he just wanted to give everyone a lesson in economics.  Every post in my thread was replied to by him with made in america preaching.. we get it, buy american
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermuteNope, Illinois Toolworks Inc. owns Hobart.Miller owns Miller.--Wintermute
Reply:This guy owns both companies
Reply:He says, "BUY MY WERDERS"
Reply:all economy & patriotic stuff aside, I'd say that were talking about electronics here & there is a big difference between cheap electronics & good electronics. you can't compare a steel english wheel to a sophisticated assy of electronics... forget about who is actually building the stuff for a minute & look at the quality & the reputation for that quality long term... comparing a china welder to a miller welder is like comparing a daiwoo to a mercedes (notice I did not say cadillac ) the difference is one is over engineered where the other is engineered to be just good enough but to also be as cheap as practical...a 100k mercedes will get you to your destination just like a 14k daiwoo will, but you really can't compare the 2 side by side as one is obviously far superior to the other, in many ways, & the one that is over engineered obviously costs a lot more to build so it obviously has to sell for much more too, some want the cheaper one though & the cheaper one can be not all that bad to some, but of course it's nothing more than a compromise to save $$$...bottom line, if you want a cheap welder then buy a cheap welder, if you want a quality welder then buy a quality welder... by now I'm sure we all know what's a cheap welder & what's a quality welder... the best advice I'd give to someone that wants an inexpensive welder would be to buy a used quality welder, period.... this is not about who makes what & where, but what's good & not good....  if your only going to use a welder for a few hours a few times a year maybe you really just want a cheap welder, but if you have hope & aspirations of using it to become a better welder & plan to use it a lot then it only makes sense to buy quality...as far as off shore vs us made, I honestly believe that if a large Japanese company decided to build a really good welder that they probably could & it probably would even be better than the us made stuff while being competitively priced, no, not dirt cheap like the china stuff, maybe somewhere on par with the good american made stuff price wise though, for an indication of this just look to the auto manufacturers... if sony or mitsubishi decided to become competitive in the welding market then miller & lincoln would have to start to worry... luckily for them the only ones shooting for there market share so far has been the cheap china stuffyeah I'm patriotic & yeah I used to always believe & preach that you should buy american, but, on the same hand you have to realize that the reason an american car for a long time now has just been crap compared to some foreign cars has been nothing to do with patriotic, it has everything to do with the american car companies total disregard for scale of economy, everything to do with the union workers making a but load of money while all not caring at all about there job & just trying to get paid for doing the least amount of work possible... this has nothing to do with patriotic & everything to do with waste. this is not just me talking, it's the whole country & it's why the american auto manufacturers have almost failed to the point of extinction, it took public opinion & government intervention to at least slap them with a wake up call... it's actually gotten to the point that a honda is more of an american car than a chevy is... that's just sad for a long time now the average 30k american car could be directly compared to a 20k Japanese car, that's a damn shame... while the american car was built buy a bunch of over paid union workers who try to do as little as possible & take home as much as possible & take home whatever they can too, all while assembling a car that is built from parts from china japan & mexico anyway... I do believe in supporting local business & do all the time, but if the local business was screwing me expecting me to pay for there waste & bad business practices then I would shop elsewhere too... I don't believe miller & lincoln to be the same as the auto manufacturers though, I do believe them to be us companies who's focus is on building a quality industrial product, quality & cheap don't go together... even if they are using outsourced components they are at least specifying more expensive quality components... in the end it's not where it's made but more how it's made... there is no question that currently the lincolns & the millers are way superior quality to the budget stuff coming from china. it's up to the millers & the lincolns to uphold there quality & standards & reputation, nothing to do with where it's made & everything to do with how it's made, a capacitor for example can cost 19 cents or it can cost 4 dollars, they will not be the same, don't matter where it was built, matters how it was built... I wouldn't be upset to learn that many of the components in my american made equipment actually came from a quality electronics manufacturer in japan, I'd still prefer that over a cheap china made unit...miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Originally Posted by djuosnteisnI think you could honestly weld 1/4" or thicker.  3/16" seems to be a very conservative limit on their part.  But the torch is only air cooled, so it'll get hot pretty quick when running it at full power for any extended amount of time IMO.
Reply:Originally Posted by djuosnteisnI think you could honestly weld 1/4" or thicker.  3/16" seems to be a very conservative limit on their part.  But the torch is only air cooled, so it'll get hot pretty quick when running it at full power for any extended amount of time IMO.
Reply:the premise that the Chinese can't build good electronic equipment seems a bit strange when you consider we all all posting via Computers  that have been made there, driving cars with electronics mfg'd there , and on and on. I would say they are pretty good at  electronics, in fact, who can equal them?Also, I'm not sure the Mercedes /Daiwoo analogy works anymore since Mercedes has gone so far down in quality. In every survey I've seen in the last few years Mercedes did very poorly as did VW and BMW. The German automakers are in last place overall on most quality  surveys such as the JD Power, behind the US cars which are now very close in quality to the Japanese overall.But I do get your meaning! FB:Why on earth would you recommend the Thermal Arc line when some or all of these are not North American built?Last edited by worntorn; 11-05-2010 at 07:35 PM.
Reply:i too would have to agree with the above statement about the chinese and electronics.. go check the ignition system in your gm, ford, dodge trucks and cars and tell me where the cam sensor, crankshaft sensor and o2 sensors are made.  hobart and miller are owned by the same parent company.. if i was sitting on $1500 and was in the market for a tig machine and also didnt already own a plasma cutter, i think i would consider an everlast machine but i would get the biggest combo unit they make.. gues thats the 256 unit... the next thing i would consider would be the Miller diversion 165, and one of the chinese plasma cutters that go for $300-$350 on ebay.. friend of mine bought a collosal tech 50 amp plasma for $350 and it cuts great, actually very good...  that would also seperate the machines into 2 different units..  thats one thing i dont really care alot about is having a combo unit, its nice for compactness, but i would also think if the plasma side messed up the tig side would mess up and vise versa, just more to go wrong in one unit.. its ok but i would rather have seperate machines now that i think about it..... wish i had the money for one of those hobart air force 250 plasma cutters...i'd swap that for 25 amp bluepoint plasma any day.Last edited by brucer; 11-05-2010 at 08:33 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardI thought both were owned by ITB?
Reply:and Lincoln owns Century now i believe.. and this thread is actually informative if you read it..
Reply:Anybody know anything about Longevity weldall machines?Had one in Iraq but couldnt run it on our generator.
Reply:Good questions, good answers. After much thought, much tossing, I will save up and get a Dynasty 200DX. Even used they get a great price. That's one thing that is hard to argue with. I also have what I guess is something that I suppose is pretty silly to many but pride of ownership has some weight with me. The old SnapOn tools my Dad left me from the 40's and 50's are still my favorite and I love having them. I guess I'm a materialistic snob but I can't help it!  My old Lincoln stick and my old Millermatic 90 MIG are still working very well. When I get the Dynasty, I'll give away my old Lincoln 180 ARC welder vintage 1964. I was in second grade then and that's when I started welding. Thanks for the comments.
Reply:Originally Posted by worntornthe premise that the Chinese can't build good electronic equipment seems a bit strange when you consider we all all posting via Computers  that have been made there, driving cars with electronics mfg'd there , and on and on. I would say they are pretty good at  electronics, in fact, who can equal them?Also, I'm not sure the Mercedes /Daiwoo analogy works anymore since Mercedes has gone so far down in quality. In every survey I've seen in the last few years Mercedes did very poorly as did VW and BMW. The German automakers are in last place overall on most quality  surveys such as the JD Power, behind the US cars which are now very close in quality to the Japanese overall.But I do get your meaning! FB:Why on earth would you recommend the Thermal Arc line when some or all of these are not North American built?