plasma cutter against a safe box

admin

Hi,I'm new to welding and I'm thinking about building a safe box from 5 m"m steel.How can I prevent a plasma cutter to cut the steel ?Is it possible to protect the steel ?It sounds stupid for me to use 5 or even 10 m"m steel because of the plasma cutter issue.Thanks.
Reply:You would have to make it so the plasma cannot get a current thru the metal.   No current no cut.   You could always glue wood or plastic to the outside or coat the metal in something that would have to be scraped off to get a ground.
Reply:I wanna know what you are going to put in there that you are worries about someone with a plasma cutter?You don't need a ground to cut it open with an oxygen/acetylene torch.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Layer the box with a ceramic coating, or embed it in concrete.  A plasma torch is useless against concrete or ceramic coatings.Have a good alarm system, too.  And keep the safe in a front room, not a room in the back!Some years back I saw a store safe that had been broken into in the middle of the night.  This was no small safe, either.  It was about a 3 foot cube, I do not recall the manufacturer, but it was a big name. The burglars had defeated the alarm system by cutting the telephone wire then removed a section of wooden exterior wall to gain entry.  Once inside they beat the crap out of the safe with a BFH and a prybar to peel away the outer layer of  steel, chipped their way through 2" of concrete then beat the crap out of the inner steel box until they gained access to the inside then cleaned out several grand in cash and nearly 50K in credit sales tickets.  The entire job must have taken them about two or three hours.  Why did no one passing by the store notice?  The office was at the back of the building away from the road and the several acres lot behind the building was owned by the store and filled with shrubs (it was a garden center store) so there was no visibility at the back.The credit sales tickets were usless to the theives, other than to garner the credit card numbers, but the store lost most of that value because they didn't have any other records of those credit card sales.  This was in the days before instant on-line credit card approvals.  Safes are like door locks, they only keep honest people honest, but safes have two problems:  One problem is that as the value of the contents increases the honesty of the people in the area decreases.  No one is going to beat their way into a safe for $10 when they know that is all that  is in it. But stuff the safe with $100k in cash and attitudes change.  Another problem is a safe is an attractive nusiance.  The fact that the safe exists attracts the wrong kind of attention even if it is empty or no one knows what is in it.- MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:If somebody wants to get in, they're gonna get in.It's only a matter of time.And in fact, that's how safes are "rated" – by how much time it takes, with or without tools, to get in.Most consumer "safes," you don't need anything as exotic as an oxylance, plasma cutter or o/a torch. A $15 angle grinder, some $1 cutting wheels and a crowbar (and a few hours) will do.
Reply:I saw a demonstration of gun safes once, they took a well known brand with an excellent safety rating, within 15 minutes they were able to pry the door open with a couple spud bars and 10lb hammer. To someone motivated enough, nothing is safe
Reply:The best 'safe' is discretion and keeping your yap shut.
Reply:I want to build a computer/server case for sensitive data , what they sell in the stores is crap in terms of security.I want to protect data and not money, but it seems to me that with steel there is no way to do it.Steel cases even with ceramic coatings are not the complete solution. Coating with epoxy will take time to scrap.The solution is something like alarm together with the steel box but alarms can be disabled as well.A military personal or a business man or a lawyer needs protection to his computer data.This is a big problem without no solution.
Reply:A solid sealed safe with computers. Nope. They gotta breath! Need vent holes.Look into a secure server rack. I work in a data center and have seen some really nice stuff.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:On the contrary...as long as you can find a ground somewhere...plasma with a pilot arc will blast through ceramic and concrete with no issues. It will make it a bit more difficult though if the concrete is an inch or more thick!  We use plasma to cut concrete lined steel pipes quite often.Jim Colt Originally Posted by MondoLayer the box with a ceramic coating, or embed it in concrete.  A plasma torch is useless against concrete or ceramic coatings.Have a good alarm system, too.  And keep the safe in a front room, not a room in the back!Some years back I saw a store safe that had been broken into in the middle of the night.  This was no small safe, either.  It was about a 3 foot cube, I do not recall the manufacturer, but it was a big name. The burglars had defeated the alarm system by cutting the telephone wire then removed a section of wooden exterior wall to gain entry.  Once inside they beat the crap out of the safe with a BFH and a prybar to peel away the outer layer of  steel, chipped their way through 2" of concrete then beat the crap out of the inner steel box until they gained access to the inside then cleaned out several grand in cash and nearly 50K in credit sales tickets.  The entire job must have taken them about two or three hours.  Why did no one passing by the store notice?  The office was at the back of the building away from the road and the several acres lot behind the building was owned by the store and filled with shrubs (it was a garden center store) so there was no visibility at the back.The credit sales tickets were usless to the theives, other than to garner the credit card numbers, but the store lost most of that value because they didn't have any other records of those credit card sales.  This was in the days before instant on-line credit card approvals.  Safes are like door locks, they only keep honest people honest, but safes have two problems:  One problem is that as the value of the contents increases the honesty of the people in the area decreases.  No one is going to beat their way into a safe for $10 when they know that is all that  is in it. But stuff the safe with $100k in cash and attitudes change.  Another problem is a safe is an attractive nusiance.  The fact that the safe exists attracts the wrong kind of attention even if it is empty or no one knows what is in it.- Mondo
Reply:This is very odd for a first couple of posts.Need to keep data safe? Encryption.  Story, end of.
Reply:Originally Posted by bart222I want to build a computer/server case for sensitive data , what they sell in the stores is crap in terms of security. I want to protect data and not money, but it seems to me that with steel there is no way to do it. Steel cases even with ceramic coatings are not the complete solution. Coating with epoxy will take time to scrap. The solution is something like alarm together with the steel box but alarms can be disabled as well. A military personal or a business man or a lawyer needs protection to his computer data. This is a big problem without no solution.
Reply:For office use with linux or windows machines I think the standard is not enough, cdrom and usb's are open to all .The best is to make a steel case with ventilation option and put in an expensive safe box if needed, but for the medium demand it is good idea to make a strong 5 m"m steel computer cases with STRONG locks welded INSIDE the box.this is bad lock :http://securitysolutions.com/new_sec...core-padlocks/this a good lock :http://www.ebay.com/itm/Abloy-PL350-...item460fa34aa5this a good lock :http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLEX-Padlock...item1e7a7272baWith epoxy coating and small spaces for air to get in with small vents. Hard disc get protection and usb + cdrom are closed inside.
Reply:-------Look, if you put a HD in a place like a safe, and someone tries to cut their way in with a thermal lance, plasma cutter, or O/A set. The inside of the safe would reach thousands of degrees, the HD would be completely destroyed.-------Do you mean 5 m"m steel case in the size of a DELL desktop computer is going to reach 2000/3000C    with plasma cutter ? Why so high temperature ?
Reply:Why so high a temp?Molten Metal!Seriously 256 bit encryption is plenty. Add biometric locks(fingerprint) to log in, it is fine You are trying to make a super complicated and impractical solution, for a problem that isn't there.
Reply:Originally Posted by bart222-------Look, if you put a HD in a place like a safe, and someone tries to cut their way in with a thermal lance, plasma cutter, or O/A set. The inside of the safe would reach thousands of degrees, the HD would be completely destroyed.-------Do you mean 5 m"m steel case in the size of a DELL desktop computer is going to reach 2000/3000C    with plasma cutter ? Why so high temperature ?
Reply:I'm thinking a shock sensor and a strong electromagnet...also assuming non solid state drives...miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:I don't think most people work with data encryption.A minimum physical solution is also needed.
Reply:People that have sensitive data use encryption.It is as simple to use as a USB flash drive.You plug it in, set a password and scan your fingerprint, and it encrypts all data. Remove the USB and it cannot be viewed or used by anyone.Plug the USB drive back in, enter password and scan finger, it will open access to you again.
Reply:Here is one without a fingerprint scanner.http://www.memotrek.com/blog/securit...y-your-pc.html
Reply:I had some usb sticks lost all my data , I don't trust them.
Reply:Regardless, you are imagining the problem.
Reply:This is for a desktop but what about NAS server ?Samba server running on linux.
Reply:256bit encrypted hard drive that uses pin number access..http://www.7gadgets.com/2013/05/29/a...rd-drive/78511Last edited by brucer; 06-06-2013 at 03:39 PM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Originally Posted by bart222This is for a desktop but what about NAS server ?Samba server running on linux.Encryption is indeed the best solution but many people still don't use it.I think you right, no need for steel case if you learn how to proper use encryption.
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcoltOn the contrary...as long as you can find a ground somewhere...plasma with a pilot arc will blast through ceramic and concrete with no issues. It will make it a bit more difficult though if the concrete is an inch or more thick!  We use plasma to cut concrete lined steel pipes quite often.Jim Colt
Reply:It would depend on if you want it safe from all harm, or if it being destroyed would be an acceptable solution.
Reply:Originally Posted by bart222I don't think most people work with data encryption.A minimum physical solution is also needed.
Reply:Someone told me that securing alarms is more important because as soon people break into a house they search and destroy the alarm system.Or the small box that holds the disks for the cameras.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_video_recorderMaybe that's an idea.I'm doing a welding course now, electrode, and searching for ideas to build something useful and sell it.This forum is amazing, very good advices, Thanks !Last edited by bart222; 06-06-2013 at 05:20 PM.
Reply:Destroying an alarm system is a fool's errand.  Disabling it's link may not be, but a good system has a cellular backup.  Once the alarm has been sent, what's the point of smashing the equipment?  It just waste's the thief's time.Protecting your DVR from being stolen is not however, unless you can afford to send your camera data off-site.
Reply:Most people will not work with encryption because they hardly know how to work with mozilla or excel.Not everyone is a computer professional.------------It seems that there is not to many things that I can build as a welder, most item are industial items, not for the hobbist.Safe boxes are the only thing I can think of.
Reply:Please read this :http://security.stackexchange.com/qu...tfs-encryption--------------The password is the weakest part of the system. You would have to have a very long (more than 14 characters) and very random password to prevent it from being hacked.The other parts are secure. The private key and encryption key are both un-crackable with today's technology.There are still ways around this. For example, somebody might install a USB keylogger between your keyboard and machine, and steal your password that way.--------------USB keylogger is something to worry about.I really think that encryption is the best answer to plasma cutter issue I was worried about.But still, some basic (or more) physical security is needed to any computer. http://www.keelog.com/Simplicity wins !     just a steel box can prevent this.
Reply:It uses AES-256 in XP, and ECC in Windows 7 But if someone gets a hold of your machine and can crack your password, they can access your files. So better than nothing, but only just barely.----But if someone gets a hold of your machine ----
Reply:http://superuser.com/questions/27864...-really-secure-----Even with filesystem encryption in place, a suitably motivated hacker with physical access to a machine can break security, either by infecting the OS to log passwords, or by bugging a keyboard. Even biometric security isn't a full guarantee - for example, capture raw signals from a fingerprint reader, then play it back later.Data can never be kept 100% secure if it is to be accessible at some point.-----There are plenty of ways of securing things (e.g. Smartcard authentication) which can't be so easily bugged as a keyboard. Further such behavior requires physical access to the target machine for a long time----Last edited by bart222; 06-07-2013 at 04:07 AM.
Reply:http://www.velocityreviews.com/forum...on-system.htmlPerhaps the greatest risk in using these kind of programs that I've seen isnot in worrying about if someone can break the encryption or not, but rathermaking sure you don't end up being locked out of your own data, by losingkeys and/or not backing them up.Most people don't use 14 caracters passowrds but 6 - 8  only.http://www.petri.co.il/whats_efs.htmNote: EFS does not offer 100% security against all sorts of attacks. Besides EFS you must also use other defensive strategies such as physically securing your data and computersLast edited by bart222; 06-07-2013 at 04:16 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fnord5Need to keep data safe? Encryption.  Story, end of.
Reply:You are getting sidetracked by messages about password security and fears of keyloggers, etc.Augment your password with two factor authentication, and you don't have to worry about this.Forget about EFS.  It is way more of a headache than it is worth, and the underlying user password encryption in Windows is too hackable if you cannot guarantee physical security.If you are looking for file/filesystem level encryption on a system, get truecrypt, and set up an encrypted volume that uses a keyfile AND a password.Put the keyfile on a thumb drive.  Insert the drive and enter your password to unlock the volume.  Then remove the thumb drive, and keep it on you.The keyfile can be anything, and doesn't have to be anything identifiable as a keyfile.  It could be a picture of your dog licking itself (on that note, pictures you took yourself make excellent keyfiles).  You can even specify more than one keyfile, if you're afraid the NSA is going to catch onto this.Last edited by rlitman; 06-07-2013 at 07:47 AM.
Reply:I think that encryption AND physical security are both needed, one is the complement of the other.What about your ipad or iphone ?   there is so much data inside, how do you secure them?  In your office or at home, all your data must be physicaly secured.Someone can install a small camera in your office or just steal your small drive.   Because of the economic depression people search for ways to make money, and data is high valued in some cases. And again. many people just don't use these things, they hardly know how to surf the internet.Last edited by bart222; 06-07-2013 at 07:59 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinSnicker.Guffaw.
Reply:Originally Posted by bart222It seems that there is not to many things that I can build as a welder, most item are industial items, not for the hobbist.
Reply:@ bart222 - your solution seems to center around a "1s and 0s" approach.  There are a GoogleTon of commercially available software packages for maintaining data integrity (e.g. PGP).  Changing gears.  IRT to the "physical" approach Rule No #1 should be installation/placement discretion of the safe.  Your client needs to decide WHERE to place the safe.  Location, location, location.  All safes are "unsafe" and vulnerable to unwanted physical entry.  No steel enclosure regardless of whether it's coupled to tungsten, osmium, iridium, 17-PH, rhenium diboride, or unobtanium, is undefeatable from a combination of mechanical (i.e. grinder, hammer, crowbar, sledge, drills) or energetic (i.e. plasma, oxy-lance, O/A) techniques by (un)skilled humans.Approach the problem from this angle with your client and you will see the light.Last edited by ManoKai; 06-07-2013 at 10:21 AM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Good idea to hide the computer but not enough. Good idea to install it on top of the room and not on the floor .But If someone finds it , then you need to make his life VERY HARD take away your data.==================================The king of operating systems security .http://openbsd.org/Paranoia or not ?Linux is enough, most people work with it for many years with no issues.Then why to make such a secure heavy operating system?Last edited by bart222; 06-07-2013 at 11:25 AM.
Reply:Where are you located?
Reply:I'm from Israel.I worked with computers until the 2009 crisis and since then I'm working as a security man for an IT company and saw some accidents where people stole things like iphone's or even broke into the offices to search for valuable data.That is the reason why I'm trying to build a secure computer cases.I live inside this problem and I know that some physical solution is needed.Last edited by bart222; 06-07-2013 at 01:05 PM.
Reply:Ok, so you absolutely want to secure the computer.My suggestion is to see if you can buy an old ATM.  That has a computer inside, and a vault to secure it, plus a lot of junk you don't need.But remember that there have been plenty of theft rings where the theives pick up an 800lb ATM, haul it off, and take it apart at their leisure.  Do you expect to build something heavier?If you do your security right, there should be no retrievable data from a stolen computer.
Reply:If I was in the market to steal your data, and I came across a computer locked up in a steel box in an attempt to keep it safe, and saw a laptop sitting next to it guess which one I would take?Both actually lol. But I would MAKE SURE I got the locked up one because there is probably something juicy inside.The more secure something is, the higher value it will be assumed to have, and will instantly become the priority target.
Reply:The scenario :  3 people came at night just to steal data, they can't make a lot of noise or they will be caught.they can't spent to much time , to risky.   The scenario  :   at 11:00  AM ,  someone got into the building and into someone's room and in 10 seconds take his disk away, at his home he cracked the disk because the CEO uses only 6 digits as password, then all the hard disk encryption is broken.The scenario  :   the air condition worker who work at the building saw everyone go to lunch and installed the usb key on the keyboard usb plug, he knew the password to the computer and broke the encryption.Encryption alone is not good enough, you do need some minimum physical protection to make the bad man think 5 times before trying to steal something.If it's a matter of 5 -10 seconds to steal data so the RISK in small, but if he needs a hammer or to make a lot of NOISE to take your disks then he will go away .It is a matter of  : RISK,  TIME,  NOISE,  HOUR,  KNOWLEDGE, PLACE.Encryption alone is not enough because with physical access to the computer you can disable it.There are many ways to do it.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RootkitJust make it not a 10 seconds issue to take the disk or to install something, but 20 minutes with making noise and 99% of them will go away !http://www.techsupportalert.com/best...on-utility.htm----Most if not all of the programs below leave the user exposed to the non-obvious threats described directly above in Cautionary Note #1. TrueCrypt - which is volume, not file and folder based - does not create this vulnerability.----I tried Truecrypt, knowing it was the king of all encryption software. However, it is not for the lame user like myself, it's very complicated application. So not for everybody.----http://www.navyfield.com/Community/F...ead=20&page=16----Typically, an attacker installs a rootkit on a computer after first obtaining root-levelaccess, either by exploiting a known vulnerability or by obtaining a password (eitherby cracking the encryption, or through social engineering)----It is enough that I will open your computer case and install a small USB inside to crack your disks WITH the encryption.Your keyboard as well is in danger.http://www.reddit.com/r/crypto/comme...nst_root_kits/Last edited by bart222; 06-07-2013 at 04:20 PM.
Reply:---------------https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...aid_attac.html"Evil Maid" Attacks on Encrypted Hard DrivesEarlier this month, Joanna Rutkowska implemented the "evil maid" attack against TrueCrypt. The same kind of attack should work against any whole-disk encryption, including PGP Disk and BitLocker. Basically, the attack works like this:Step 1: Attacker gains access to your shut-down computer and boots it from a separate volume. The attacker writes a hacked bootloader onto your system, then shuts it down.Step 2: You boot your computer using the attacker's hacked bootloader, entering your encryption key. Once the disk is unlocked, the hacked bootloader does its mischief. It might install malware to capture the key and send it over the Internet somewhere, or store it in some location on the disk to be retrieved later, or whatever.You can see why it's called the "evil maid" attack; a likely scenario is that you leave your encrypted computer in your hotel room when you go out to dinner, and the maid sneaks in and installs the hacked bootloader. The same maid could even sneak back the next night and erase any traces of her actions.---------http://www.reddit.com/r/crypto/comme...nst_root_kits/Using full disk encryption leaves the boot sector unencrypted, because something has to be readable by the computer and able to decrypt the driveLast edited by bart222; 06-07-2013 at 04:23 PM.
Reply:https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...aid_attac.htmlIn the meantime, people who encrypt their hard drives, or partitions on their hard drives, have to realize that the encryption gives them less protection than they probably believe. It protects against someone confiscating or stealing their computer and then trying to get at the data. It does not protect against an attacker who has access to your computer over a period of time during which you use it, too.