Removing broken bolts too hard to drill.

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Recently a logger brought a hydraulic cylinder to my shop that had eleven 7/16 inch broken grade 8 bolts where the end plate mounts. About three were broken flush with the face of the cylinder but the rest were broken off below. All were broken at an angle so drilling was not an option. As they were grade 8 bolts, it would have been very hard to drill them. I used a method of welding to the bolts that I have used for years. Using a 3/32 inch 7018 rod, I welded to each bolt up to the cylinder face, then welded a nut on top. Some had damaged threads when the bolts broke off, so it took some gentle persuasion to remove them, but all were removed without welding to the thread. Not all of the bolts are shown in the photo, but it shows that hard bolts can be removed by welding.
Reply:H,mmm the pix seems to have tumbled off or was never glued on.Just the fact that they got heated might have played a good part. But still a neat trick with some skill demo'd.You got to be able to see a pix in the post preview or we ain't going to see it either.
Reply:sounds like a good little trick, thanks for sharing. Now where the PICS
Reply:I was gonna say the heat helped because we almost always used either red or green loctite on cylinder flange bolts and clevis threads.  Just good insurance to keep from blowing out a gland.  Glad it all came out well, nothing is worse than fighting hard and losing the battle.BobI'm spending my Kids inheritance, I dont like him that much anyway!!!!!!Enuff tools to do the job, enough sense to use em.Anybody got a spare set of kidneys?  Trade?
Reply:Here,s the pic showing the broken bolts I got out. Attached Images
Reply:kool,,,,l but that is OLD magic been a few threads about welding on nuts to remove broke boltsidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:Been doing that for years.  I usually have a pile of nuts on the floor.   Looks good.The heat expands the bolt in all directions.  It cant expand around so it only expands in length.  When it contracts in all directions and loosens the bolt. Nice job.   316 stainless works well  utectic  680 works the best for me.Last edited by David R; 11-05-2011 at 05:30 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I have found that when the bolts are broken down in the bore and you are in a sensitive area , say near a water jacket and you are nervous about drilling off center I learned a trick from a guy years ago, might work for the angles break you talk about.  Get a bolt of the same diameter and thread, put it in a lathe and center drill it . Now start it in the bore to be drilled and use it as a drill guide so you hit dead center on the bolt. This works good for easy outs, I have yet to find Easy outs to date that impress me and do what they are supposed to do without stripping.  Anybody have suggestions on a good Easy Out."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:I use 306 and 316 stainless too but when the bolt is hard to move or is bottomed out, stainless isn't strong enough to withstand the torque to break it loose. Sometimes a hard tap on the nut will break it loose. Otherwise it will take a lot of patience working it back and forth.
Reply:Originally Posted by kolot  Get a bolt of the same diameter and thread, put it in a lathe and center drill it . Now start it in the bore to be drilled and use it as a drill guide so you hit dead center on the bolt.
Reply:I usually weld something "grabbable" to the offending fastener, and a little wax touched to it while it is still hot gets em out every time.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:I dont know why but I have better luck makeing nut out of 1/4 inch by 1inch steel and welding to bolt
Reply:My son says that is my answer to everything.  "Weld a nut to it"Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Dave, we see things different than people that don't weld.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Originally Posted by TozziWeldingDave, we see things different than people that don't weld.
Reply:I see new things every time I pop in to see you. BTW I think I have you a beam.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:I have planted my share of store bought easy outs and being a machinist/welder if the bolt is large enough, I use a square lathe tool bit, grind a taper and make flutes on each side to grab the bolt. I drive it into the hole in the bolt. Works great without stripping.
Reply:Both were broken flush and too hard to drill, somebody had all ready started and gave up.Tig a nub on it, tap with a diamond shaped chisel in a circle round and round to unscrew works too!See the attached photo, one has a nub tigged on it.The other I got just plain lucky and tapped it round and round to unscrew it. Attached Images
Reply:I hate it when they bring me a job where the bolt has already been drilled off center and they want you to get it out. If I can set it up in my milling machine. I'll use a center cutting end mill and cut it out.
Reply:Probably the idea of heating by some method it is a big factor. That always makes it far more easy. The Drujinin idea of tapping it in a circle also works if you can find anything to get some purchase on. What is being shown is bolts of decent size, gets more challenging the smaller they are. For those I have metal engraving tools, try to cut a slot across it and then use a fully charged 18 VDC drill to unscrew it. The idea of heat the bugger is probably most key.
Reply:I got a bucket for EZ Outs, right there with the rest of my scrap iron. Originally Posted by TrainI just found the excuse I need for buying a lathe.
Reply:Does this method work out of position or with really deeply broken bolts/pins?Check me out on Facebook, you'll like it!     Post pics of your welding or metal project and win a Cryotreated Rotabroach set valued at ~$250!
Reply:Best thing I ever did was to learn how to weld nuts and bolts to stipped out / broken bolts and rounded off nuts. The heat from welding seems to help break loose the nut/bolt. Jeep loves Torx bolts which wouldn't be bad except they then cover them with thick sealant and paint. Qualified & experienced at welding scrap metal
Reply:Originally Posted by Cryo GalDoes this method work out of position or with really deeply broken bolts/pins?
Reply:Originally Posted by TozziWeldingI see new things every time I pop in to see you. BTW I think I have you a beam.Just a quick (and probably very stupid) question. Welding nuts to broken bolts seems to work nicely.... as long as the piece where the bolt is threaded into... is not made of steel, right? Only worth trying in aluminum parts?We used (or tried to use, took a few tries) in a few broken bolts from a gearbox (aluminum). What about broken bolts into steel pieces? I think that welding will probably make it worse as you could easily weld the broken bolt to the piece it is threaded into...Mikel
Reply:It works if they are threaded into steel, cast iron, aluminum, & stainless. Never saw one seize in aluminum bronze but I'm sure that would work too.
Reply:there's welding rod out there that wont burn thru its own flux...making this a piece of cake for beginners and shaky hands.  Works out of position too.Check me out on Facebook, you'll like it!     Post pics of your welding or metal project and win a Cryotreated Rotabroach set valued at ~$250!
Reply:i have had crap luck in using my mig welder to do this.....maybe i need to use the arc welder like you say, i am going to try that next timebobs77vet/37ford4drEastwood digital TIG200HH190Lincoln Invertec 155sLincoln weldpak 100sears/craftsman (lincoln) 50a 240v buzz boxO/A rig Harris gaugesnexion cut 50 dxchicago electric (HF) 240v spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by 37ford4dri have had crap luck in using my mig welder to do this.....maybe i need to use the arc welder like you say, i am going to try that next time
Reply:[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkIH7DhQJzA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkIH7DhQJzA[/ame]Has anybody used one of these? Seen it on MotorHead Garage on Fuel TV the other night.Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"
Reply:I've heard of or seen a number of plans for homemade EDM equipment. A friend went to his Modelmaking club recently and saw one version demonstrated, one which used a Model T coil to produce the electrical current; the repulsion of the current-induced magnetism was what controlled the feed of the electrode. This system works for very small pins and screws which are too small to reach by 'normal sized stick electrodes and welding. A number of companies list 'special' electrodes just for reaching in holes and welding to the tops of stuck bolts, and most of my catalogs showing them are a few dozen years old so yes, this idea is clearly nothing new.  The process has been used by many of us, in my case always with standard stick rods or ones I've modified myself, not any special versions.
Reply:Originally Posted by OldtimerIt works if they are threaded into steel, cast iron, aluminum, & stainless.
Reply:This is where the utectic680 works.  With some care and a lot of patients  the flux keeps the weld from the threads.  I usually just use 3/32 7018.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mikel_24I see what you are saying but.... what about the chances of permanently welding the broken bolt to the piece it is bolted in? With big bolts you might have some more room to play but for bolts arround 1/4"... I don't see much room for screw ups! That's why I see no problems doing it in aluminum but I feel it is much more risky to do it in steel pieces.Mikel
Reply:Originally Posted by Mikel_24I see what you are saying but.... what about the chances of permanently welding the broken bolt to the piece it is bolted in? With big bolts you might have some more room to play but for bolts arround 1/4"... I don't see much room for screw ups! That's why I see no problems doing it in aluminum but I feel it is much more risky to do it in steel pieces.Mikel
Reply:I was about to "suggest" careful use of a sharp chisel, which has always worked well for me, but now that I know a bit about welding, I see your idea is clearly better.Thanks!Last edited by wirehead; 11-07-2011 at 04:12 PM.XMT304 (school)SP125+ (home)HF 4x6 BandsawGood judgement comes from experience and much of that comes from bad judgement.
Reply:Once again I'm going to put in that stainless rod works better than most. One thing is that it sticks to alloy bolts better and the other is that it's one of those rods where the flux makes it almost impossible to weld to the sides. In fact most of the time if the bolt is near flush I'll just butter the bolt with stainless and then weld to the nut with 6011 because it's so hard to get stainless to stick to the nut till you're at the top. I've never had any luck with MIG unless the bolt was loose to begin with then anything can get it out.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:I can't find the right name to Google...but I think the same kinds of metal which are available to make drill bits out of...are available as TUBES.... thus you can fashion a ' core drilling ' bit which is the correct size to just drill into the Threads of your stuck bolt.... and you are avoiding the hard center where easy outs are broken off, etc...  I have seen pictures of these shop made drills.... might have been in ' Machinist Bedside Reader' books....Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Hello irish fix-it and others, here are a number of photos of removing a broken tap from a blind hole. It is also shattered(multiple pieces). GTAW process with stainless steel filler. To add a bit to some of the benefit to using stainless steel, it tends to lend itself to not "swiss cheesing" when you have oils, greases, or other metal working fluids in the proximity of the repair/removal. I have also used this sort of process on bolts that have been broken off deeply in a hole, 3/4" to 1", certainly with some limitations on diameter of the hole. Yet, in many instances, with patience, a long stick-out, a pre-purge, small tungsten and filler wire(in some cases I have used .023 GMAW wire), you can be very succesful with removal of broken fasteners. Have even gone as small as a 4-40 screw in tool holders with replaceable inserts. Definitely had the cheaters in and no caffeine. Attached Imagesaevald
Reply:Hey Little Jeep I've had to do that on a lot of bolts on my old YJ, yeah lots of fun.........
Reply:I've had some jobs where there was enough flat surface to use my Milwaukee Mag Drill to center drill the bolt and use a left hand drill to back it out. Sometimes it don't work but at least you have a better way to drill it out.
Reply:The easy outs from MAC tools that are a spline with a nut that goes over them to get a wrench on are the best ones i have used.They come in a small and large sets.you still have to be carefull.Also bashing a torx socket into a drilled hole sometimes works
Reply:I broke off an 8-32 tap in a coil bracket i made the other day flush. I figured we would have to cut out another coil bracket. My partner said he know an easy way to get it out. We chucked it up to the laser bed, put the tip almost on the tap, touched the laser and the tap was gone! Blew out the hole, started tapping again! There was no need to drill or do anything!
Reply:[QUOTE=gow589;572649]I broke off an 8-32 tap in a coil bracket i made the other day flush. I figured we would have to cut out another coil bracket. My partner said he know an easy way to get it out. We chucked it up to the laser bed, put the tip almost on the tap, touched the laser and the tap was gone! Blew out the hole, started tapping again! There was no need to drill or do anything!/QUOTE]Great. Now I have to buy a laser. Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"