Something For The "Skeptics"..

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Lately there has been "discussion" regarding Aluminum and how clean it should be..Well I'm gonna clean up some of the "opinions" we have run into here..Heres some 1/8" Aluminum that needs the "treatment"...The piece on the left was cleaned with just acetone and a rag..Notice how dirty it started out by the piece on the right..Now look close...The end of the cleaned piece was brushed with a stainless "toothbrush" and acetone..You can see the diffrence in the shine..Look close..Now heres the pieces welded together after both were cleaned with the brush..Nice huh?Now just for laffs I cut another piece and just acetone and rag cleaned it then welded it to the first 2 pieces..Here they are "side by side"..The weld on the right looks way better than the weld on the left..You be the judge..I'll take the brushed side anyday..How about you?Cleaner is everything..And if you do not agree..Thats your problem.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:we use aluma bright.. it is an acid based cleaner that truckers use to clean dump beds and such...it is a pretty strong product, you def dont want to get any on your skin..we simply put a bit in a spray bottle and spray it on then let it sit for a bit. Then rinse with water and dry and you are ready to weld.Jason www.Z28.comOwner/Admin
Reply:Originally Posted by MasterZwe use aluma bright.. it is an acid based cleaner that truckers use to clean dump beds and such...it is a pretty strong product, you def dont want to get any on your skin..we simply put a bit in a spray bottle and spray it on then let it sit for a bit. Then rinse with water and dry and you are ready to weld.
Reply:Hey Zap,You left out the dime.   Basic welding and metallurgy info.  You weld METAL.  You don't weld paint or dirt or grease or crud or rust or anodizing or things that are not METAL.Note that -some- welding processes can tolerate some crud because of the flux or other filler chemistry that tries to compensate or get rid of the crud to varying degrees.  But tolerate or compensate is not the same as 'put crud in or leave crud in and hope to get a quality weld'!Aluminum is a metal that has interesting properties, like it usually self-forms a self-protective oxide layer that is mostly chemically inert that protects the rest of the metal underneath from further corrosion.  You don't see this aluminum oxide layer too much, because it looks almost the same as the plain aluminum metal, just a little 'duller'.  The oxide layer on plain steel is pretty easy to see, because it is a different color.  Namely RUST!The aluminum oxide layer melts at a MUCH higher temperature than the aluminum itself.  So you really-really should remove that oxide layer before welding aluminum.  You mechanically remove it with a stainless steel wire brush after cleaning grease-n-crud off with a solvent and you weld the METAL soon after the oxide layer is removed, because it will start to reform itself (just like clean shiny plain steel will start to rust all by itself).Clean the crud off first, including anything not METAL like oxide layers, and the weld will look and be better.Thanks for the demo pics Zap.
Reply:We use that stuff by the 55 gallons for our aluminum bulk trailers, and that stuff is VERY nasty. Very effective also, however.
Reply:If anyone can't see the difference between the two weldsTheir head is stuck on AD... Craftsman 230a Buzz-box,  Lincoln 140T & 180T, Century K2789, PUROX W202 O/A14" cheapo chop saw that cuts straight and square!A toolbox of the cheapest Chinese tools money can buy"Real" tools all old reliable Husky/Craftsman/Proto stuff
Reply:Good show Zap. Clean material always before welding. As the two most favorit quotes on this site of mine, are."the diffrence between an average person and a true professional is that the true professional will do a really good job..even if they don't want to"and" If you don't have the time to do it right, then you definitely don't have the time to do it over."Words to live by.Last edited by jamlit; 02-20-2007 at 04:54 PM.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Hey Zap!         Why don't you just get some of that aluminum wire that's made for dirt and all the other crap on the surface...... save yourself some time!!!! I mean it must have taken all of what........ 5 mins to clean that. I can think of more efficient and economical ways to be spending that 5 mins......      Really.... if I wasn't a welder I could be one of your customers and I don't want to be charged for acetone that needs to be squeezed from one of your rags!!!!! LOL DISCLAIMER... This reply was posted in good humor so don't tweak!!!_________________Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by lorenzoHey Zap!         Why don't you just get some of that aluminum wire that's made for dirt and all the other crap on the surface...... save yourself some time!!!! I mean it must have taken all of what........ 5 mins to clean that. I can think of more efficient and economical ways to be spending that 5 mins......      Really.... if I wasn't a welder I could be one of your customers and I don't want to be charged for acetone that needs to be squeezed from one of your rags!!!!! LOL DISCLAIMER... This reply was posted in good humor so don't tweak!!!
Reply:"the diffrence between an average person and a true professional is that the true professional will do a really good job..even if they don't want to"
Reply:Simple Phosphoric Acid is what is used to "etch" aluminum after stripping to prepare for painting. It stinks, but can be sprayed from a spray bottle and rinsed with water. For just cleaning, it could be diluted.Not a beginner, not a pro !
Reply:Oven cleaner (sodium hydroxide solution) kicks butt on aluminum too. You can strip anodizing off in a few minutes with just a rag. It will remove type1 color anodizing and even type 3 hardcoating easy as pie. It will also etch the surface, leaving it super clean.
Reply:Nice job.  I use a SS wire brush until I can feel the brush dragging on the clean aluminum.  Acetone would probably make my wire brush need less elbow grease, but it works if I use it with athority. ( didn't speel that right did I? )DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Ive got to try that oven cleaner idea..  Thanks for the tip zap.  Have you ever got aluminum that just doesnt weld well even after cleaned?Various GrindersVictor Journeyman torch200cf Acet. 250cf oxygenLincoln 175 plus/alpha2 gunLincoln v205t tigLincoln 350mpEsab 650 plasmaWhen you can get up in the morning, Its a good day.Live each day like its your last.
Reply:Be careful with the oven cleaner.... When I was just a lad, I used oven cleaner to get the carbon out of the combustion chamber of an aluminum head. Left it overnight and it ate through the head. It was an expensive lesson.
Reply:Yeah, I guess I left out the "RINSE WELL!" LOL.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:Great contribution Dapper Zapper. Thanks for taking to time to show the final result. Clean is definately mean on aluminum, SS and mild steel.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Gad I wish I could take one of your classes.  Good example.ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:Adding caustic soda to aluminium produces vast amounts of hydrogen. As well as dissolving the workpiece, unless this is carried out in a well ventilated area, the first spark and it all goes BANG!
Reply:what about something simple like vinegar or a baking soda solution?
Reply:Originally Posted by LSX89RSwhat about something simple like vinegar or a baking soda solution?
Reply:Vinegar works great removing rust from steel. I clean gas tanks with it.
Reply:Originally Posted by YamahammerVinegar works great removing rust from steel. I clean gas tanks with it.
Reply:Make sure to mix the vinegar and baking soda real good first. See how that works   HenryA bad welder makes a good grinderA grinder and paint makes a welder that ain't!If you can't put a good weld on it, put alot of weld on it!
Reply:Originally Posted by MNSTRBLDRMake sure to mix the vinegar and baking soda real good first. See how that works   HenryIn the electrical sign industry, we use similar products like Alumiprep, and the aluminum trailer wash diluted.  We use a pump up sprayer outdoors to wet down aluminum, then wash it off with a hose.  Excelent wash before painting.
Reply:Simple Green will clean aluminum.  It will also remove anodizing, as will any caustic/alkaline solution.It's just that it is not all that fast about it.A strong NaOH (lye) solution will remove anodizing PDQ.  It will also remove the aluminum too.Note - Lye is DANGEROUS!!!  If you don't KNOW what you are doing, don't do it!Safety first!!!There are different ways to clean things, depending on the size and scale of the parts and the operation and the materials available and the chemical disposal and use restrictions and safety requirements, etc, etc.Clean the dirt and grease off, then clean the oxidation (rust on steel or anodizing on aluminum) off, then you can actually weld the METAL.  Because you can't weld dirt or grease or oxidation.
Reply:For what it's worth, a stainless scratch brush and acetone is adequate for most of the girls we dance with. It will do a very good job and requires no rinsing since the acetone evaporates quickly, and can be done right before the welding starts to prevent any oxide formation. While I agree the acid based chemicals do a great job, however they all require  rinsing (one more step) and considering no one responding to this thread had anything good to say regarding the aroma of these products when they are simply sprayed on the material and given the porosity of an aluminum casting that will retain some amount of the acid even after rinsing, do you really feel safe breathing those fumes? We are exposed to enough risky environmental fumes and such, do yourself a great favor and stick to something that is safe or at least safer then breathing acid fumes.Brushing after the acetone has evaporated will remove the aluminum oxide and the traces of acetone.
Reply:I've been tig welding aluminum for about six months now, and while my results have improved appreciably, I still have some questions.  I've been using the stainless brush/acetone combo for aluminum cleaning and I would like some input from the members of this forum.  I'll clean my material and filler with acetone, then SS brush or scotchbrite(for base metal and filler) then another acetone wipe to get rid of the dust.  Is the second wipe necessary, or could I just blow the dust off ?  It seems that the dust wouldn't be any good for the weld, but the tiny fibers left behind from the wiping aren't good either.  I use paper towel by the way.  Next question:  if I have a weldment tacked but can't complete all of the welds soon after tacking, is there a way to clean the root face of my joints?  I can brush till my hand hurts, but the root face will still have an oxide layer, not to mention the dust that gets in there from the brushing.  Last question:  Do 6xxx series extrusions have a thicker/more tenacious oxide coating than say 3xxx or 5xxx sheet?  When I do open corner joints, the welds come out much better than a fillet.  It seems that the filed faces of the corner joint are much cleaner than the brushed surfaces of the fillet.  I've been trying a carbide burr to quickly get to bare metal when I clean extrusions.  Then I can brush just a few strokes and be ready to weld.  I remember from my tig class at Lincoln Electric that the oxide layer that immediately forms on aluminum is only several angstroms thick.  How thick is it on a typical extrusion?  Or on sheet?    Last last question: what did I do with my short back cap?  I can't find it anywhere.....
Reply:Originally Posted by MNSTRBLDRMake sure to mix the vinegar and baking soda real good first. See how that works   Henry
Reply:Originally Posted by YamahammerBe careful with the oven cleaner.... When I was just a lad, I used oven cleaner to get the carbon out of the combustion chamber of an aluminum head. Left it overnight and it ate through the head. It was an expensive lesson.
Reply:Hey Zap, for those of us that don't weld alum., how does the weld penetration and strength compare between the two welds? I see that there is surface porosity, but does it permeate through the weld? I ask this out of interest and, if it's just the surface of the bead that's affected and you were going to sand down the weld anyway, would it be worth the extra cleaning( IE: time saved + material costs) or just do the wipe and skip the ss brushing?Thanks,B200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:Originally Posted by bert the welderHey Zap, for those of us that don't weld alum., how does the weld penetration and strength compare between the two welds? I see that there is surface porosity, but does it permeate through the weld? I ask this out of interest and, if it's just the surface of the bead that's affected and you were going to sand down the weld anyway, would it be worth the extra cleaning( IE: time saved + material costs) or just do the wipe and skip the ss brushing?Thanks,B
Reply:Hey Zap,Ask the fellows who own those $25K+ show cars if those welds would be acceptable on the polished alum D/plate accessories they pay dearly for. Believe me, I know. I had to redo a couple pieces last year for a customer with a '49 Merc & he wasn't a happy camper with the fab shop that made his accessories with seams full of pinholes.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Did you increase the cleaning for the dirty metal? (to where it wanted to be anyway)... if not then the test doesn't really mean much.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Thanks for the demo Zap. As a homeshop welder that has only been doing aluminum for a few months now your demo really reinforces how cruicial the pre-weld steps are.ThanksGordhttp://gordsgarage.wordpress.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverDid you increase the cleaning for the dirty metal? (to where it wanted to be anyway)... if not then the test doesn't really mean much.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI have an "Old Style" machine with no bells and whistles..Sorry no cleaning action to play with.....zap!
Reply:So I guess then its 75% fit, 5% cleaning and 20%welding?  Got another semester of arc and mig before I get to tig. Gonna be cool when I get there....I'm a glutton for punishment.....
Reply:Originally Posted by cyclops6LOLReminds me of my days as a chef. I was working in this restaurant and we used to clean the flat plate each night with a product called 'FireDog'. Very powerful stuff !!As the hot plate was cooling we used to pour on about 2 cups of this stuff and it used to bubble and froth up immediately, cleaning the hotplate to brand new. We used a scraper to then scrape of the gunge into the front drainage tray. As I was scraping back towards my body the stuff splashed onto the front of my chef's pants without me knowing. I used to 'Free Ball' back then as it was a very hot environment. Anyway, I started to get very hot on the crown jewels as the 'FireDog' soaked through my pants. Pretty soon there I was standing over the sink with my pants down around my ankles slashing water over my pecker screaming in pain. I laugh now, but at the time it took skin of my delicates and was very sore indeed ! Not to mention the laughs that happened as front of house staff caught me in the kitchen flashing the sink.Now when it comes to chemicals I am very careful ( I also make sure I am wearing underwear !)
Reply:Originally Posted by jmanNow that's Funny Stuff right there... Heh, heh...We used to use the ol' 'Grill Brick' with Vegetable Oil instead of the chemicals.Cheers,
Reply:I really wish I could get my boss to read this. We don't TIG anything at the shop...All push-pull MIG, but I can't get him to clean anything. He thinks it is a waste of time. "Just turn up the voltage and it will burn through." Almost all our work is ornamental and non structural so the "just turn it up method." kinda works, but I know the non cleaned welds are weaker."If you live in Sacramento you have seen my work."
Reply:Just starting to learn Tig and just moving to aluminum, but the guy that taught me to stick said clean,clean, clean!  Anytime you want to melt it together clean it first, (especially aluminum) !AEAD 200LE, Lincoln precision tig 185, Millermatic 251, Spectrum 625 extreme, Victor torch , Smithy 1220LTD. and  Do all C-4 band saw ,  Always adding.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jonnie FrazI really wish I could get my boss to read this. We don't TIG anything at the shop...All push-pull MIG, but I can't get him to clean anything. He thinks it is a waste of time. "Just turn up the voltage and it will burn through." Almost all our work is ornamental and non structural so the "just turn it up method." kinda works, but I know the non cleaned welds are weaker.
Reply:acetone and some of the other chem, mentioned are very toxic, obsorbed thru the skin and not good for the stuff inside your body.....Have a nice day
Reply:Originally Posted by Ric HavelFor what it's worth, a stainless scratch brush and acetone is adequate for most of the girls we dance with. It will do a very good job and requires no rinsing since the acetone evaporates quickly, and can be done right before the welding starts to prevent any oxide formation. While I agree the acid based chemicals do a great job, however they all require  rinsing (one more step) and considering no one responding to this thread had anything good to say regarding the aroma of these products when they are simply sprayed on the material and given the porosity of an aluminum casting that will retain some amount of the acid even after rinsing, do you really feel safe breathing those fumes? We are exposed to enough risky environmental fumes and such, do yourself a great favor and stick to something that is safe or at least safer then breathing acid fumes.Brushing after the acetone has evaporated will remove the aluminum oxide and the traces of acetone.