Un-warp me please

admin

So I screwed up a little bit now I need some help.  The ends of my rope spool warped when I welded them to the big center tube.  It's really just a cosmetic problem, but it's a paying job and needs to be right when it goes out the door.  Any help would be appreciated.IF you say to use heat please be specific on where, how, and how much.  I'm trying to get this one out the door so we can settle up on a number of jobs. Attached ImagesMy name's not Jim....
Reply:The problem is that the center has shrunk do to the weld. Thus you have two choices. Either stretch the center or shrink the outside. Since there's so much outside it would be a big job to shrink it just right without more warping.   I would first try placing a large dolly (big piece of metal) against the flange near the weld and center part. Then using a medium sized ballpeen hammer tap from the outside against the weld and dolly (use the flat side for less defacing of the piece or the ball side for faster work). What you're trying to achieve is thinning the metal a little bit all the way around near the weld. This will stretch it out and should relieve the stress causing the warp. There are a few options for the dolly. It could simply be a big piece of metal with a flat side. If heavy enough it would work. Another option would be to use a nice heavy piece of something like solid square shaft laid across two saw horses and sitting the spool on the shaft near the weld. That would would work nicely but I think you'd need something like 2" minimum for the shaft.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Can you clamp it down to the table and the pull and push the outer parts.  Or is that wheel all one piece now.I am tired of Ketchup, I want the Gravy...
Reply:I tried beating on it with a dolly to stretch the weld back out.  I wasn't getting anywhere and gave up on that.  I'm worried that heating the outer edge will just give me a bowl shape. What about heating a line from the center out in about a dozen spots?My name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by partagasCan you clamp it down to the table and the pull and push the outer parts.  Or is that wheel all one piece now.
Reply:I assume that is approx 11 gauge? and about 10 inches in diameter? I'm not to sure what you have going on there as far as the shaft through the center and then the pipe through the center and how that is welded together but based on the answers to that question you can decide if you expanded the center of the circle or put it under compression.  It seems wrong but it looks like you have the center of the circle expanded.  If that is the case you need to either shrink the center or stretch the edge.  You could try to stretch the outside with a ball pein hammer on the anvil which may work but could be a pita or you could shrink the inside by heating it red and quenching it with water(start with small areas. If you have the center shrunk like I would be more apt to believe I would start by heating the weld bead red in short spots to relieve the tensions in the weld and the welded on circle.  You are there with your own eyes so you can probably decide which scenario you have going on better than me.  You may find you need to work primarily with the part of the circle between the pipe and inner shaft.
Reply:The disks are 10 gauge and 14" in diameter.  The center is a 4" pipe and the 1 1/2" axle is really two stubs welded in the ends.  Not a complete through shaft.  I wanted the pipe hollow cuz I'm going to cut in a window to stuff the loop on the rope into before spooling it up.  This is to store a 150' tree rope.The soap stone lines are where I was thinking of applying heat, but do I go from the outside in or inside out?  I was thinking that would shrink and relieve the portion of the disk the weld didn't shrink. Attached ImagesMy name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmThe disks are 10 gauge and 14" in diameter.  The center is a 4" pipe and the 1 1/2" axle is really two stubs welded in the ends.  Not a complete through shaft.  I wanted the pipe hollow cuz I'm going to cut in a window to stuff the loop on the rope into before spooling it up.  This is to store a 150' tree rope.The soap stone lines are where I was thinking of applying heat, but do I go from the outside in or inside out?  I was thinking that would shrink and relieve the portion of the disk the weld didn't shrink.
Reply:btw Irish's idea should work too, we just have all have different ways of doing the same thing.
Reply:That's a tough one.  I vote for using a really heavy piece of metal over five pounds in the inside and peening against it from the outside.  You will have to peen tight up against the heat affected zone all around where you welded.  The area you want to stretch is that blue discolouration I can see on the outside.  Make one trip around then inspect.  You have to watch the effect as it is easy to stretch it too much and have it buckle again.
Reply:Have seen some old timers fix warps with heat they also use a spray bottle of water to keep the heat where they want it cool to watch never had the balls or need to try itMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:Well, I can tell you what didn't work.   Heating on the lines I drew made things many times worse.  Then I tried heating the back side of the weld.  Things looked pretty good while hot.  Went back to warped when it cooled.  Then I tried heating about 1/2" all the way around the outer edge and got no change.   Then hung it on the press sandwiched between two pieces of plate to fix the warp from my first heating attempt. I'm thinking it may get the **** beat out of it tomorrow.My name's not Jim....
Reply:We need Farmersamm to save the day. Paging Farmersamm... Paging Farmersamm... Your heat shrinking experience is needed stat! .No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I believe trying to shrink anything is the wrong way to go here. Since wacking it with a hammer doesnt do it I think heating up the area around the shaft red hot and beating it will stretch the metal back out. Everytime you heat it just shrinks it more. I want to think I have run into this before and had to heat and beat to get alot of stretching action happening. Good luck.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Cutting it off and starting again isn't an option?I find when I make a mistake it's often best to just start again from scratch. I've spend loads of time fixing stuff mistakes and never been all that happy with the fixes.Yeah, I carry.House keys, wallet, some change, usually a newspaper, maybe a pen.
Reply:Can you just cut those off and start over? Possibly laser cut use some 3/16 and not fully weld them up? Just some heavy tac welds?Or laser cut 1/4 thick flanges (like the ends of a 5 lug axle) to be welded to your center tube and then bolt those large diameter plates to them ... no welding at all.
Reply:Originally Posted by scott brunsdonCutting it off and starting again isn't an option?
Reply:I don't know how to fix this one now that it's welded, but you can prevent the warping by add some shape to the flanges before welding.  Flare the center hole like you would the lightening holes you make in a race car or aircraft . . . better yet, extrude the center hole and only weld the edges of the extruded flange.
Reply:Wonder what would happen if you make one maybe two radial cuts from the outside to the center, follow a couple of the lines you marked for heating and weld them up from the inside out. It might allow the disk to shrink and pull it flat when you weld it back up....Mike
Reply:although I lost mine and need a new one, I suggest everyone has a copy of Hal Wilson's Welding Secrets, there is a lot of real world information in there that is very handy and it speaks of problems like this. Now that you heated it the whole way to the outside I think you might as well cut it off and start over, it would likely be quicker in the end.  A few 1/2" welds are all you need, its just to store rope on.
Reply:Originally Posted by cd19  A few 1/2" welds are all you need, its just to store rope on.
Reply:I wonder if you could do something with push tooling in a lathe and coax each end flat (either with or without some judicious heating)...
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWell sort of. Lots of times with outdoor equipment and such, the extra weld isn't so much for strength as it is to keep out dirt and water. I've seen rust and ice do almost as much damage to stuff as the knuckle heads who use it.
Reply:Most likely you're not hitting it hard enough. You have to hit it hard enough to leave a mark. If you can't see where the hammer hit it then it's not hard enough. A LOT of small marks is going to be better than large ones (and look better). But it's going to take a lot of hits to make this work. It's not for the impatient. It may seem like nothings happening at first but you just have to keep at it till it does. Another thing I didn't think of last night was to use a rounded off chisel to hit the weld itself with. You lay the spool on it's side with solid support under the weld area. Use the chisel to leave a series of dents on the weld working your way around. The idea here is to leave a solid ring of dents in the weld with the chisel.   I agree with the poster above about the heating here. Since you've heated such a large area you're really in trouble now. There's so much stress in so many places that it's going to take a long time to fix it now. Especially if you're not experienced at it. If you're going to use heat on a piece like this you need to do small spots and work slowly allowing full cooling between rounds to see what the piece does. This is the reason I didn't recommend heating the first time.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:How much room is there to put lips on the edges of the disks?  Could you widen the frame at all?Dont know if it would help here but I had an issue with a lid warping for a box I built. I pulled it down in place with clamps while it was cool. Once I had it flat and securely clamped I heated it up with a torch and then let it cool while clamped. It stayed in place when I released the clamps. Could you use a peice of 1/2" flat plate or something similar cut a hole in the center that the hub would stick through so the flange would sit down on the plate. Clamp it in sevral places where it pulls it down flat. Then heat it to let it relax into this position and cool that way. not sure if this fix would work or not but its how I would try it.
Reply:I hope you already fixed this but FYI Originally Posted by BoostinjdmThe soap stone lines are where I was thinking of applying heat, but do I go from the outside in or inside out?  I was thinking that would shrink and relieve the portion of the disk the weld didn't shrink.
Reply:a rim would be my suggstion, too
Reply:That was a great explanation.  I have heard of removing bearing races as you described, but I never could visualize why that worked...Thanks! Originally Posted by cd19I hope you already fixed this but FYIDo you understand why your welded area shrunk?  When it was heated it tried to expand outward, however the cooler parts of the disc could not expand, upon the metal getting hot enough to soften it pushed against itself which would have slightly gained thickness.  The weld bead itself would have likely added its internal tension to the scenario making it worse.  Your idea did not and would not work because the rest of the disc is free to expand.Experiment.  get a piece of steel. lets say 5/8 round rod.  cut it about 3 inches long.  measure it with calipers in length. write this down.  now let it lay on your bench or anvil and get it cherry red hot with the torch. let it cool and measure it again.  it will be the same.  now pinch the shaft in your vise lightly gripping both ends in the vise, heat it red hot again and watch it fall out of the vice when it cools.  you will find when you heated it, it tried to expand, in all directions, when it could not expand length wise it compressed itself which is easy to do when it is red hot.  when it cooled the just mentioned compression that happened does not reverse and the piece is now shorter.   this is why heating a bolt or bearing race or even welding around the inside of a bearing race makes these types of things easier to get apart.   ps buy the book I mentioned, this thread made me realize mine has been missing a few years and I am going to either find it tonight or order a new one, its worth the money.
Reply:Originally Posted by cd19I hope you already fixed this but FYIDo you understand why your welded area shrunk?  When it was heated it tried to expand outward, however the cooler parts of the disc could not expand, upon the metal getting hot enough to soften it pushed against itself which would have slightly gained thickness.  The weld bead itself would have likely added its internal tension to the scenario making it worse.  Your idea did not and would not work because the rest of the disc is free to expand.Experiment.  get a piece of steel. lets say 5/8 round rod.  cut it about 3 inches long.  measure it with calipers in length. write this down.  now let it lay on your bench or anvil and get it cherry red hot with the torch. let it cool and measure it again.  it will be the same.  now pinch the shaft in your vise lightly gripping both ends in the vise, heat it red hot again and watch it fall out of the vice when it cools.  you will find when you heated it, it tried to expand, in all directions, when it could not expand length wise it compressed itself which is easy to do when it is red hot.  when it cooled the just mentioned compression that happened does not reverse and the piece is now shorter.   this is why heating a bolt or bearing race or even welding around the inside of a bearing race makes these types of things easier to get apart.   ps buy the book I mentioned, this thread made me realize mine has been missing a few years and I am going to either find it tonight or order a new one, its worth the money.
Reply:Try putting a doubler on the outside that is half the diameter of the original plate and spot weld it
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmIt is an option, but I'd rather keep it as a last resort.  I've run in to this particular warpage situation before (welding a disk to a tube or shaft) and I'm sure I will again.  I'd like to learn how to fix it now because starting over may not be an option next time.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderIf doing more is an option, then you might want to start over-- just to  find a better fabrication method. You have too much welding around the disc, it wouldn't be practical or better if you get a large order.     not to derail, just noticed it appears you welded on both sides of the disc.
Reply:I have the above mentioned book as a PDF. If anyone would like a copy PM me. I will have to compress it the file is16 megs.Wayne
Reply:Originally Posted by Mick120I don't mean to throw cold water over the book but, some of the reviews on Amazon leave a lot to be desired and make me think I've got more info in my old 1947 encylopedia "Engineering Workshop Practice".
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmI won't get a large order.  This is a one off and will stay that way.  Yes I welded on both sides.  I welded the disk to the big pipe first.  That's when the warping happened.  The center was still flat so I welded in the stubs.  It spins great and would work as is, but I want it right when it leaves.  I know of several ways to prevent and minimize distortion.  This one just kind of caught me by surprise and I'd like to know how to correct it.
Reply:repairing taco'd parts all the time ,that looks easy ...  im  seeing baby 3# sledge 32 ounce ball pein , edge of a  bench ,  clamps , bending , hammering ,  little tapping on the anvil , then heat shrinking any small area that keeps popping out ... then praising self         thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:You can easily flare the center hole in a hydraulic press.  The residual stress from the forming operation is opposite the stress that will be created by welding, and the flange will isolate the outer portion of the disk from the weld.  As dbotos suggested, adding an outer flange would be a further improvement, but is harder to produce.  Dynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:I can put up a suggestion drawing in the morning.  It's kind of late here now.I believe you can bring it back with heat, and some patience.You'll start heating from the center next to the welds, and work out in stages as the metal shrinks.I'll put up a drawing in the AM.  It might not work, but then again it might."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I would cut of the two warped ends and redo them,BUT hammer or pre-stretch the inside where you plan on welding, AND only weld about a 1/4'' or 1/2'' at a time.Lincoln pro mig 180Lincoln Square Wave Tig 300/wp 20/home built water cooler Victor, Purox, Harris, O/A welding/cutting setupsVintage Craftsman drill pressVintage Craftsman/Atlas 12"x 36'' lathe7''x 12'' w/c band saw Everlast 140 st
Reply:Day's begun here.You got lucky I guess that it warped in the shape of a taco.  I'm looking at the pics.  It bent "up" in two directions, and bent "down" in two directions.....both on opposite sides of the disc.Take the worst bend, and clamp two pieces of square tubing across the bend in order to flatten it.  Put as many clamps as possible along the length of the tubing.  It will be like bridging a valley.  The "deep" part of the bend will be in the center "under" the tubing.  Clamp it flat.Start the heat next to the weld in a half circle.  Heat it dull orange, and let it air cool.  Then see how it affects the metal.  Loosen the clamps, and see what happened.  Remember to apply the heat uniformly.You might find that full circles around the axle work best, or working in 1/4 segments (tubing clamped in pie slice segments of the circle, working around the circle a bit at a time).I've never had to do a circular thing before, but I'd bet on a radial heating of the entire circle, working outward in steps towards the edge.  The final shrink on the edges will require peening, otherwise stay away from the hammer until you have to final tweak the edge.  Hitting anywhere in the center of the disc will make for bumps or pockets.Most importantly....always apply heat on the outside of the bend, not the inside.  Any bend has metal that stretched on the outside radius, it's this stretch that you want to shrink.Do everything in slow stages, and be patient.  Small changes are easy to correct if you find it's not working.  A lot of the stuff I do is exactly like this.........I'm not absolutely sure which way the heat will affect the metal, so I take my time and always work in small steps.Oh yeah, you'll hear ticking sounds if the heat is working to shrink the metal.  It's stress relief or contraction.  Wait till the clicking/ticking stops before loosening the clamps to see what results you're getting Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:You might also want to clamp the entire circle around the edge.  Make a square of 4 pieces of square tubing.  This would really do a good job of flattening the disc.  But still only work on the single bend, not both bends.  When the single bend is corrected, the chances are it will pull the other opposite bend into place"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I would first clamp the circle to a flat surface and then heat four areas with a pie shape and use a spray bottle to control the heat.  Here is a picture of what it should look like.  What you are doing is controlled shrinkage of the rim and limiting the heat in the center of the disc.  I would start with smaller pie cut heat areas and see how much movement you get.  You also need to keep the disc clamped to a flat top to move the metal in the direction you want. Attached ImagesLast edited by Scott Young; 12-01-2011 at 12:24 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mick120Hey Boost,How'd the straightening exercise go???
Reply:Ditto woi2ld! First off you should have clampped it down to a welding table with some plate scraps on it to keep it as flat as possible. Now, place an edge on the welding table, heat the section that sticks up , lay a piece of heavy plate on it and smack it with a heavy hammer. Do that on the sections that stick up, then flip it upside down, working on the same face and do the same for the inside. then do the same for the opposite end. Shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to have it squared back up. Use a lot of heat!
Reply:I ended up pretty much just beating the high spots.  I wish it would have turned out better, but I had to draw the line some where.  It still had about an 1/8" of wobble to it.  Here's a finished pic. Attached ImagesMy name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmI ended up pretty much just beating the high spots.
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedHot or cold?
Reply:I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier Boost. If you have an air chisel you can stretch metal pretty quick. I have a number of the shanks with the end ground to a gentle radius and don't mark things up bad at all. I'll start at 20psi and go up from there.It looks like you fixed it pretty good from the pic anyway.Matt
Reply:I have had my best luck clamping everything in jigs for welding and cooling. I don't remember the last time I had to put up with warping problems.