My first big project...An all metal garage

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So I started this about the beginning of November. The plan was to build a metal garage building for my grandparents because they own a bed and breakfast and live there as well. The b&b they own is a castle built in 1888 and was an exact match to a castle in Scottland. My grandparents have been doing this for 14 years and they have never had a garage. They own several cars, some being worth quite a bit of money and they finally decided to pay me to build them a garage.  I am 18, I have never really done anything like this but there is a first time for everything, right? The plan is to be able to fit 2 cars with plenty of room and to have storage space above.I started taking pictures a little late so you don't see any of the concrete work and you don't see the first part of the frame coming together.Keep in mind I build from scratch, this was not a kit. I had to measure cut and weld everything myself.Getting the angle iron cut and added to the roof.Finished the angle iron for roof support and started building the doors.With the east side of the roof on!Roof finished, back and sides partially finished.Everything finished except the doorsThe last few pictures were taken yesterday, I should finish the doors up today!! Then I just have to add the trim pieces!!! How's this for a first project? I designed myself and built entirely by myself (except for the little help I needed hoisting the trusses up)Last edited by Skytard; 12-23-2011 at 08:12 AM.
Reply:Looks very nice!  Can I ask you how much you've got into it so far, not including the cement?  This may be something I look into in the future.
Reply:Yeah no problem. I am not actually paying for it, they are, so I only have a rough number. We are about $1,200 in for metal, $1,400 in for panels and the $0.27/piece self tapping screws, and around $100 for misc supplies like welding wire and cutting blades and cut off wheels, etc.... So the total is around $2,700 for supplies. Just if anyone is curious, this is our B&B. The Castle Inn Riverside
Reply:Skytard, Looks very nice!  Kansas, gets pretty windy out there, not to mention in winter, a lot of snow.  Was stationed out at Fort Riley back in "67. We where issued heavy felt masks because of the windchill.  Just wondering if your building can hold up to these conditions, high winds and snow load. Bob
Reply:Nice job, Sky.Contrary to popular opinion, I do NOT have a pet turkey that craps molten steel.  It's a goose.
Reply:$3k to fram up and roof a garage isn't too bad at all.  How many hours you ohave in on it?
Reply:While I congratulate you on taking this on I see a lot of issues with this.Number one is I have a strong feeling your roof is way under sized for snow loads in your area. That's a mighty big span and those "trusses" look to be very light. Also I seriously doubt you have any understanding about how a truss is actually designed, yet you went out and designed one on your own. Your angled members don't transfer any vertical loads to anything other than the horizontal members. That's wrong. You need to understand exactly how a truss works. Vertical members transfer vertical loads, horizontal members transfer vertical loads. Angled members transfer both vertical and horizontal loads. When your angled members dead end into horizontals, there's nothing there to take the vertical loads and transfer them on. The only thing there to support the weight is the tube steel itself, and that's mighty thin to take the kind of bending loads it looks like these will receive. The front wall with no diagonals will be particularly susceptible to bending possibly as there is nothing to really transfer any vertical load to the outside posts except the top cords themselves.I'll also agree about wind loading. You've built a moment connection structure with all the welded connections. while the sheeting will add some shear strength, I wonder if it's enough. Also I can't see your welds all that well from the picts, but those I see don't look the best. I see several that look pretty high on that front wall. I'm also looking at that machine and wondering if it's enough for the job. Here's a few things I note. You are  a new welder, You are using what appears to be a 140 amp HF machine from the picts, You are welding in place out of position... All of this makes me wonder about the integrity of your welds. Add in the fact these welds will be repeatedly run thru cyclic loading with wind, and I just see this as a recipe for disaster at some point.Now basic fab work... I see a lot of day light thru the roof/wall  joints. That means you will get a lot of lift if the wind gets under those roof panels. It also means you will get a lot of wind driven snow under inside that structure. ( trust me I know how much get's thru the gaps in the eaves at the shop I'm using in the winter.) I'm hoping the trim remedies some of these issues.I also think you may have some liability issues if this thing collapses. I doubt you have any insurance to cover your azz on this if someone God forbid gets hurt when it comes down. Keep in mind this  IS a commercial property. Clients who are staying there may be injured or may have vehicles damaged if this was to collapse under a heavy snow. I doubt the B&B's insurance will want to cover damages or injuries on a project that was likely done with no permits, inspections or insurance by the installer, especially with the glaring structural issues I see.Not trying to bust your balls on this, but it looks like you bit off quite a bit for a first project. Take small bites as you go rather than huge leaps. Some projects simply are not "learning" projects.I do love the look of the house itself. I've always been a big fan of that era in architecture..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Great Job Sky I Wish That When I Was 18 I Could Have Done Something Like This - Might Be In Better Shape Today - How About Some Dimentions - What Type Welder - And How Much Wire Once Again Great Job - It's Young Fellows Like You That Will Carry This On After Us Old Ones Are Gone
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWhile I congratulate you on taking this on I see a lot of issues with this.Number one is I have a strong feeling your roof is way under sized for snow loads in your area. That's a mighty big span and those "trusses" look to be very light. Also I seriously doubt you have any understanding about how a truss is actually designed, yet you went out and designed one on your own. Your angled members don't transfer any vertical loads to anything other than the horizontal members. That's wrong. You need to understand exactly how a truss works. Vertical members transfer vertical loads, horizontal members transfer vertical loads. Angled members transfer both vertical and horizontal loads. When your angled members dead end into horizontals, there's nothing there to take the vertical loads and transfer them on. The only thing there to support the weight is the tube steel itself, and that's mighty thin to take the kind of bending loads it looks like these will receive. The front wall with no diagonals will be particularly susceptible to bending possibly as there is nothing to really transfer any vertical load to the outside posts except the top cords themselves.I'll also agree about wind loading. You've built a moment connection structure with all the welded connections. while the sheeting will add some shear strength, I wonder if it's enough. Also I can't see your welds all that well from the picts, but those I see don't look the best. I see several that look pretty high on that front wall. I'm also looking at that machine and wondering if it's enough for the job. Here's a few things I note. You are  a new welder, You are using what appears to be a 140 amp HF machine from the picts, You are welding in place out of position... All of this makes me wonder about the integrity of your welds. Add in the fact these welds will be repeatedly run thru cyclic loading with wind, and I just see this as a recipe for disaster at some point.Now basic fab work... I see a lot of day light thru the roof/wall  joints. That means you will get a lot of lift if the wind gets under those roof panels. It also means you will get a lot of wind driven snow under inside that structure. ( trust me I know how much get's thru the gaps in the eaves at the shop I'm using in the winter.) I'm hoping the trim remedies some of these issues.I also think you may have some liability issues if this thing collapses. I doubt you have any insurance to cover your azz on this if someone God forbid gets hurt when it comes down. Keep in mind this  IS a commercial property. Clients who are staying there may be injured or may have vehicles damaged if this was to collapse under a heavy snow. I doubt the B&B's insurance will want to cover damages or injuries on a project that was likely done with no permits, inspections or insurance by the installer, especially with the glaring structural issues I see.Not trying to bust your balls on this, but it looks like you bit off quite a bit for a first project. Take small bites as you go rather than huge leaps. Some projects simply are not "learning" projects.I do love the look of the house itself. I've always been a big fan of that era in architecture.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW You need to understand exactly how a truss works. Vertical members transfer vertical loads, horizontal members transfer Horizontalloads. Angled members transfer both vertical and horizontal loads. When your angled members dead end into horizontals, there's nothing there to take the vertical loads and transfer them on. The only thing there to support the weight is the tube steel itself, and that's mighty thin to take the kind of bending loads it looks like these will receive. The front wall with no diagonals will be particularly susceptible to bending possibly as there is nothing to really transfer any vertical load to the outside posts except the top cords themselves.
Reply:Building metal buildings for a whole lot of my pay, I too have some questions. You doubled the bottom of your front and back trusses and not the middle ones. Why? The middle ones take the load half way to the trusses on either side of them. The front and back trusses only half way to the next truss. That means the middle trusses are holding up twice the load of the front and back ones.You would have come out much cheaper and used a tiny fraction as much labor if you had used purlanes, as is used in most metal buildings, instead of square tubing.It does appear that you did an excellent job on your square, level and plumb though and I commend you on that.
Reply:I'm worried about the angle iron purlins sagging over timeI can destroy a steel ball in a rubber room
Reply:I have to commend you on taking on such a project at such an age.  Too bad more young adults don't have the ambition, and guts to try something new on thier own.
Reply:Originally Posted by smokin_dodgeI hate to say it , but there seems to be some hootspa with the younger generation that is coming of age...
Reply:It troubles me that skytard has not made anymore post, I'm sure hes been back to see every ones opinion of his work. I am sure that he is very hurt. To him I'm sure that he thought he had built the perfect garage only to find out that it may not even be safe.Indeed for a first timer myself I think you did very well. Also I'm sure that the grandparents are very proud of his work! I wish that some of you who are more knowledgeable would offer him some advise on what he could do to made his project better.
Reply:Originally Posted by Softail RiderIt troubles me that skytard has not made anymore post, I'm sure hes been back to see every ones opinion of his work. I am sure that he is very hurt. To him I'm sure that he thought he had built the perfect garage only to find out that it may not even be safe.Indeed for a first timer myself I think you did very well. Also I'm sure that the grandparents are very proud of his work! I wish that some of you who are more knowledgeable would offer him some advise on what he could do to made his project better.
Reply:Originally Posted by Softail RiderIt troubles me that skytard has not made anymore post, I'm sure hes been back to see every ones opinion of his work. I am sure that he is very hurt. To him I'm sure that he thought he had built the perfect garage only to find out that it may not even be safe.Indeed for a first timer myself I think you did very well. Also I'm sure that the grandparents are very proud of his work! I wish that some of you who are more knowledgeable would offer him some advise on what he could do to made his project better.
Reply:Originally Posted by WATCH YOUR EYES It would be much more helpful if the experienced people on this board would offer detailed instructions to him on HOW TO FIX IT...
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI honestly don't think you will like the basic answer as to how to fix this... Take almost all of it down and start over. There's not really a good way to "fix" an undersized truss, except to maybe add more trusses to the structure. There's no good way to "fix" using the wrong materials except to cut it out and replace it with the right stuff. There's no good way to "fix" the poorly designed trusses, except to cut them apart and redo them correctly, and with the possible weld damage and cuts, it would be simpler to simply replace them.Any questionable welds would need to be ground out at a minimum and redone. I'm betting the majority of the welds will have issues simply based on my experience with new welders doing out of position welds, and my belief that the machine used is probably underpowered from the look of the machine in the picts.Unfortunately reality hurts some times.Some projects simply are not "learning" projects. Overhead structures, vehicle suspension components and trailers all fall in this category. These need to be designed by someone who knows what they are doing, and executed by a welder who has the skills and experience to make them right the 1st time.Blunt, brutal... yep, but that's what it takes to get the point across many times.
Reply:Clearly Wichita, Kansas has less snow load requirements we have here. http://www.wichita.gov/CityOffices/OCI/commercial/What are the Structural Design Requirements?    Roof Live Load: 20 psf (no reductions allowed)    Ground Snow Load: 15 psf    Wind Speed: 90 mph    Seismic Design Category A
Reply:I think you need a central beam from front to back with 2 posts holding it up. You could position them so the car doors don't open onto them.
Reply:Probably the last time he posts again, eh good on ya kid ignore ignorance and keep going, the thing has sheet metal on it not fricking concrete blocks it,s not gonna fall, i.ve seen shantey shacks hold more weight than that thing has its steel, duh if your welds are pretty  good i would,nt worry its basicly a lean two thats seriously overbuilt nice job.Hobart mega arc 250 Airco dipstick160 air liquide cutting torches arc air gouger and so many more goodiesIf you cant dazzle them with brillants baffle them with bullsh$t
Reply:I live in north dakota where we have lots of snow and wind. There is no reason this building will not stand up. I was looking at the rafters in my pole barn and they are basically the same design except they are made of 2x4 wood. My barn is 40' by 75' and the rafters are 8' apart. It was here when I moved here and is at least 30 to 35 years old. I think DSW and smoking dodge need to go out in to the world and get a grip on reality. It is obvious by the number of posts some people have on here that they spend more time on thier computers than they do hands on work. These people are always the first to respond to every post whether they know anything or not. Skytard the building looks great. I have seen quite a few welded structures built a lot lighter than this. Skytard, keep on building, you do not need a professional engineer to complete this project. It is obvios that you know what you are doing. For dsw and smokin dodge to need an engineer for a simple project like this is laughable.
Reply:I've seen far less substantial 2 car carports with open sides and NO truss designs at all withstand a pretty fair load as well as winds over 50mph....   I didn't pay much attention to the truss design which is odd since I used to build them in a truss plant they don't actually fit the designs we assembled,but considering the span and materal welded together there is going to need to be a pretty good wet snow load to cause a failure. If there is a necessary "fix" for this in case of a snow load sitation in that area of the country the matter could be resolved by adding a webbed truss beam front to back down the center and since the front & back trusses are doubled already adding a single post or two posts under the two center trusses should support the structure to prevent any structural failure that might occur. The span between trusses looks to be 8' .... I've seen 10' spans with NO truss design what so ever ...only the single square tube structure with the tin running front to back (so it holds the snow/ice instead of allowing it to slide off).I'm sure a 2' wet snow load might cause a failure and if that sort of weather occurs in that area the center web beam & posts might be a welcome addition. There is a way to fix any issue that's far less costly than total destruction and total rebuild... After all it's only a garage not a house. If it was mine and heavy snow wasn't an issue I could live with it as is or just support the center in some manner. My Uncle assembled a larger structure with NO trusses for a hay barn and while we only got a few inches of snow a couple of times...we got some severe wind storms and the building was only partially enclosed...NO issues at all.He's since disassembled it and rebuilt it LARGER (without trusses) for a shop. We seldom get heavy snow,but it will be an issue if we do...Not the framework ,but the way he's running the metal roofing from front to back with no support between the rafters... It's gona leak ,but you can't tell some folks anything at all...Bottom line... That garage will probably stand just fine as is and be servicable as a garage... If the builder is concerned by the issues raised there is a "fix" that will keep it from making him loose sleep over it...Last edited by mudbugone; 12-26-2011 at 03:45 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by nodak ironmanI think DSW and smoking dodge need to go out in to the world and get a grip on reality.i like buildings that have approved designs, and pass building code inspections. minimally its time to have that structures design get an engineers stamp.....or make the changes necessary to get one.  theres lots of hard work there just keeping pushing through now to make it safe so you can be proud of what you built.bobs77vet/37ford4drEastwood digital TIG200HH190Lincoln Invertec 155sLincoln weldpak 100sears/craftsman (lincoln) 50a 240v buzz boxO/A rig Harris gaugesnexion cut 50 dxchicago electric (HF) 240v spot welder
Reply:Not picking sides here in any way but where I live if you are out in "the county" which is outside of the city limits there are no building codes that I know of.I think it varies by county.Trailblazer 302Hobart Stickmate AC/DCLincoln SP 135 TSmith torchSpoolmatic 30A
Reply:I congratulate Skytard for a great accomplishment with his first-time building project.I can't exactly recall my very first project, but I know it was nothing as nice as this and it probably flopped. Good work Skytard.The structure shows great workmanship but the design could have been different.Basically what happened here was that a steel building was designed with "wood thinking."Had the building been designed with "steel thinking," the same amount of steel -or even  less steel- but in a different configuration, would have been easier to fabricate and erect and could have yielded a building with a taller inside height too. But that's for next time, this building's gonna be okay with what's done.My built-in "gut calculator" which is calibrated for a 40# zone, says that the purlins look light and probably should be braced mid-span, if extreme snow loads are expected. I also wonder about the ground anchors.Skytard should keep an eye on the shed during its first exposure to extreme weather and be ready to tie-off or crib any weak spots. Once it survives that he may tweak a few things but then he'll  have proven "as-built" construction.  I'm not worried about a light dusting of snow, it's that 12" fall followed by rain that I'm concerned with.IMHO - Some diagonal bracing from wall-post to truss would be nice.The bottom cords of the trusses should probably be tied together with at least some type of light gauge shape so that they can't "kink out." Also, if the shed simply had one continuous length of sheeting screwed to the inside of the posts, the "sandwich" effect would make for a very strong brace against diagonal loads. Same with any trusses that seem inadequate, a "sandwich" does wonders for 'em. If the sheet over the end trusses -particularly the door end-  had some screws added to "catch" the vertical bracing, then there would never be a concern with truss strength. Basically, a metal building has to be thought of as one integral unit in its construction, not sheet-on-frame.If it were mine I would probably add the braces that I described and ready some temporary roof supports in case big snow shows up soon. The posts could just hang on the wall, out of the way,  until it  looks like big snow is on the way. Then as the snow was accumulating I'd check on sag and if I had any concerns I'd prop up those areas. I'm not worried about a light dusting of snow, it's that 12" fall followed by rain that I'm concerned with.Lots of farm and industrial sheds and car-ports get a temporary anchor, brace, or column, when extreme weather is expected. Maybe through a machine parked inside,  or against, something like that. Same goes for incomplete construction. A good monitoring  trick is to attach a light wire or light gauge strap that's in tension between members; if there's any movement the strap "pops" its connection  as an early warning indicator that  the structure has begun to shift, flex, sag, or whatever the concern is. Yeah when the first tornado comes through you might "yellow strap" the garage to Auntie Em's Cadillac that's parked inside.Skytard - I'll mention it again because it's important: Be ready to "nurse" the shed through its first exposure to extreme weather. That's common practice with "Hooverville" construction too. Once your structure weathers that test you may want to tweak a few things. It'll be fine. Stop back around, Skytard. Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 12-26-2011 at 11:34 PM.
Reply:1.  I commend your ambition.  That much initiative bodes well for your future.  I did the same thing at 15yrs old back in NY in the late '60's except 24'x32' with wood.  I read LOTS of stuff first, loved design/building things, and even did a "seat of the pants" truss design that later actually calc'd out!  And, of course, it's still there and not saggy.  Wood is more forgiving than steel.2.  Structurally I agree with DSW - just about everything he said.  So I won't repeat, except to clarify that almost all trusses [except Vierendeel] have all the members in tension or compression - not bending - usually in a triangle configuration with "hinged" connections.  Except for gable trusses, which on the back wall are completely useless, and over the doors - simply inadequate.  Simply Googling 'trusses' would have probably refined your design.Also  - you're sort of in Tornado Alley, and the primary loading on most metal buildings is UPLIFT!  Code load 90mph wind will probably generate about 75 pounds per square foot trying to rip up the sheeting at the trailing corners of the roof.Dorothy ... where did Toto go?3.  Secondary framing - purlins & girts - are all "cee" or "zee" members commercially.  They act as beams to transfer the wind loads from the panels to the frames.  Angle iron is not as stiff or as light and after a couple seasons of wind, will probably lend a wavy [cheap] character to the building! 4.  Design - small metal "Butler" buildings have always had a "cheap" connotation.  With a building of such obvious value in the background, I'm shocked that the owner did not seek design assistance to harmonize with the existing.  Wood frame construction detailed "like" the porch [that metal roof is okay] with a [even a fake] stone wainscot or sill course would have been much more appropriate!Originally Posted by DSWI honestly don't think you will like the basic answer as to how to fix this ... Take almost all of it down and start over.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fabn4FunAlso  - you're sort of in Tornado Alley, and the primary loading on most metal buildings is UPLIFT!  Code load 90mph wind will probably generate about 75 pounds per square foot trying to rip up the sheeting at the trailing corners of the roof.Dorothy ... where did Toto go?
Reply:Looking at some of the newer replys, I think a large plywood triangular gusset properly secured to the trusses would probably rectify many on the major truss issues. It would definitely reduce bending. It would cut down on the "openness" of the inside however. I wasn't really thinking about a composite structure before. Not really sure why that thought didn't occur to me the other day. It's a system I frequently use to build premade trusses / rafter units for sheds. I stand corrected on that point.thinking about it now, if I had to retrofit the structure, I'd be thinking about construction adhesive and some small self tappers and clamps. Probably using 1/4" or 3/8" exterior plywood to keep the weight down. I hadn't really thought much about the "style" of the building in relationship to the main house. I do agree it would have been an opportunity to tie the two together and improve the overall look of the place. Guess I'm just used to working around "utility" buildings on many sites, and didn't think much about it when I 1st saw the picts of the shed..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by nodak ironman I think DSW and smoking dodge need to go out in to the world and get a grip on reality.  you do not need a professional engineer to complete this project. It is obvios that you know what you are doing. For dsw and smokin dodge to need an engineer for a simple project like this is laughable.
Reply:What can a goose do that a duck can't do that a lawyer won't do? . . . Stick his bill up his A...$....$.
Reply:I'll put my .o2 in. I agree the truss design is not what is readily acceptable but may get by. I look at this and then I look at the fabric hoop houses I see everywhere, and I don't mean the arch shape ones, I own a gable type and see many more that have a lot less structural material and hold up in the northeast. After the winter I has last year I am even more surprised just how much they hold up, but I will admit I was nervous and made sure I kept up by roof raking the snow off.     If it were me or I was involved I would first make sure the ancorage was very good, can't tell what you have here , please let us know. I would sink some sonotubes 3 to 4 feet and bolt down the vertical upright members. I would agree a structural ridge would do wonders but would require you to put a column down the middle of your double door but that is not a deal breaker. If your budget allows, double the amount of trusses and cut the spans in half.This would only benefit you if you added more uprights at the outside walls to support extra trusses. In any event I would definately add some diagonal braces at the corners at a 45degree from the top of the corner post down to the bottom ancorage to give it stability under wind and other loads. The lateral parralell bracing is OK and good for fastening the side panels but you should diagonally brace for more stability. Square tube used for (perlins) on the roof is a little less in dimension than I would have used but if you shorten the spans should be fine. The biggest issue here is keep and eye on it when it snows and roof rake it down if you get a buidup. son on metal buildings tend to melt the snow away anyways.     I once worked for a construction company 20yrs ago who had a staff PE, made over 100K then, everything we did he brought in a consultan engineer for a design, I asked one day, what do we pay you for? back and forth we went but in the end I said , if you were a true engineer, you would design it, review it, and say buid it cause I know my business and I will put my *** on my design and any liability involved. I told him the day you do that is the day I will give you some respect.  As welders we should be able to build something because we feel it will hold or work without being afraid of being sued for every little thing. No one would invent anything new it this was the case across the board and the world would not progress. At 18 you aren't there yet but keep at it, and take the advice you get here both pro and con and build better in the future. It's like the whold trailer hitch thing here, some should and some shouldn't but if no one wanted to put a hitch on a truck we wouldn't need trailers."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Add to you statement that most lawyers will use the "shotgun" effect. They will sue anyone and everyone even remotely involved in the case.A few that would come to mind besides the owners. They would sue the city ( failure to properly inspect and maintain the code standards on a commercial property), the fabricator ( the OP), any and all material suppliers for example the metal supplier ( possible defective materials), the landscaper ( information comes to light in discovery he hit the side of the building with his mower once and may have damaged it)... and so on. The idea being that most people with insurance will settle for a lesser amount, rather than fight this in court and even if they win still have to pay their own legal fees, unless they want to counter sue to cover the costs.We got caught up in something like this plowing. A customer claimed they were injured when snow/ice slid off the roof of the shopping center and hit them on the side walk. We got dragged in to court as well as the shopping center and several others. Our contract specifically says we only do the parking areas, no side walks or pedestrian areas. That didn't matter, our insurance company agreed to pay $70K to settle out of court. They said it was cheaper than fighting it in court, even if they won. If we wanted to refuse the insurance companies settlement and take our chances in court, we'd have had all the risk and costs ourselves. The insurance company wouldn't back us at all at that point. So the lawyer and the person suing, got a "free" $70K from us on top of what ever else they could extort from say the roofing manufacturer, or the roofing installer's insurance company on top of what ever came from the shopping center.Don't think that just because you were not directly involved it will keep you out of court. If you are on the job, chances are the lawyer will find out and find some way to try and lump you into the suit. Even if they get $5-10K from you out of court, it doesn't really cost them any extra except to file a few more papers. It will cost you however a lot more to fight it out in court, and if you want to get reimbursed for your costs, you will have to counter sue and lay out even more cash to lawyers and hope you win.Chances this will change in the future are slim at best. The reason, most politicians are lawyers. Suits are one of the reasons insurance and medical costs are so astronomical today. Think about the woman who got boat loads of money because she spilled hot coffee in her lap and sued Mc'D's. You'd hope someone smart enough to drive would be able to realize that coffee is a hot liquid with out needing a warning label on the damn cup..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:What do you call a sinking ship full of lawyers?                                           A start
Reply:Originally Posted by spurwelderWhat do you call a sinking ship full of lawyers?                                           A start
Reply:Not sure what the codes are in Wichita but if they are like the ones here that building may just be small enough to not require any permits. We don't need them for small structures under 200 square and some cities around are under 400 square for non living quarters. But I do know Wichita has a high wind load and they occasionally get hit with heavy snow. I know hwy 54 that runs through there was closed last week because of snow. Have any of you looked at the way the cheap carports are built? Get up close and take a look you might be scared to park close to one. The major flaw I see here is that he doesn't have his trusses webbed. They need the triangle shape to move the forces out to the supports. And yes it would take a little math for him to figure this but it isn't a secret on how to do this it is in numerous books so I suppose it is on the web with a little search."Liberalism is a mental disorder" Dr. Savage
Reply:one last thing...a good attorney will know how to do detailed and in-depth web searches, or at least find someone who knows how and most likely will stumble upon your web post - thus adding more fuel to the fire. One really must be safe nowadays about what they put on the internet and their potential personal liability. be careful with what you post in regards to paying jobs - in the event of something wrong happening, its a semi-detailed report that could be used against you!it is also why i love to look through pirate 4x4 to see the people who modify their street legal vehicles - its just another way for me to have proof they not only did the job incorrectly, but that they had no clue in the beginning of what they were doing.Im sure most of you think im an evil individual or have your own choice words, but ive been burned, and if we continue to have people who try to do things on their own terms its not only themselves they are potentially harming, but myself or some one i know could be potentially harmed or worse - killed!
Reply:Me thinks he may not be back.
Reply:That would be a shame.... Most everyone here are only trying to help and maybe rectify the issues .... We aren't the building inspectors....We're just giving advise and thoughts to prevent an accident...His lead in post stated he didn't take pics of the cement work ?... The area looks like it's asphalt...so maybe the cement is where the posts are anchored into the ground (might prevent the wind from taking it ? )I'm no engineer,but I still think by adding additional webs to the existing center trusses or  a trussed center beam with a couple of posts (or Both) would "fix" the structures short falls.
Reply:Originally Posted by mudbugoneThat would be a shame.... Most everyone here are only trying to help and maybe rectify the issues .... We aren't the building inspectors....We're just giving advise and thoughts to prevent an accident...I'm no engineer,but I still think by adding additional webs to the existing center trusses or  a trussed center beam with a couple of posts (or Both) would "fix" the structures short falls.
Reply:Originally Posted by smokin_dodgeWhile im no legal expert, I have 3 attorney's in my family all of whom are ruthless and are the worst of lawyers. They have sued people for mowing across property boundaries, sued for someone putting the wrong oil in their vehicle at a quick lube - you name it they have done it.
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Reply:Originally Posted by Softail RiderSkytard don't let it get to ya ...
Reply:Originally Posted by spurwelder  What do you call a sinking ship full of lawyers? A start
Reply:That's one way to put a fire under their worthless butts...Where's the thumbs up icon ?
Reply:Originally Posted by David HillmanHave you considered taking them out back and putting them down, you know, for the common good?
Reply:Anybody care to guess the dimensions of the foot print?  I would guess 24 x 24'.  What about the tubing used ?  Three or four inch x 1/8?   The only hint i see is the cost estimate.   I'm toying with the idea of doing a complete load analysis...
Reply:Five ribs every three feet of sheet.Overlap rib is "free."