What do I tell him?

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A kid, a fairly new up and coming welder came up to me the other day and told me that he wanted to get his Journeyman status in three years!  To which I replied, hesitantly ("must be nice...must be nice..."), "You would be better off getting practical, on the job experience before even attempting to do so!"Congratulations British Columbia, your government funded "pound the welders out" College mentality has succumbed to accomplish nothing!It's even more buggered here in that fabrication and welding is seperated into two seperate trades and the thought that some kid can get his journeyman in 3 years is baffling.  I have no idea how a proper apprenticeship (and it isn't even an apprenticeship!!!) got buggered up in this province, but my good lord...  Thoughts?  Opinions?
Reply:Same thing is going on in Nova scotia,welding course and metal fabrication course.the only difference i can see is the fabrication course has a rigging section and a three part fabrication section which is basically the using of fabricating shop equipment and layout which the welders should have anywayStill need 6000 hours on  the job down here for your journeyman ticket.  here the definition of a welder from the government apprenticeship program"welder trade" means the occupation of a welder, which consists of laying out, fabricating, repairing, installing and modifying metal assemblies, and includes the use of plastic materials to carry out these undertakings. So as far as i can see the two seperate courses are a scam by the teachers union to hire more teachers  FelonCaution lurker lives here" hmmm That is serious,pass the ganja and pick up a  24 of MGD"
Reply:Hello mb-welder, I can understand your frustrations. Unfortunately, just about every system can have it's pitfalls and you as an individual who has likely gone through the school of hard knocks and may or not have had certain amounts of formal school as well as countless hours of working alongside others to pick-up and master your skills is frustrated by what you hear. I have worked both sides of union and non-union work, been in production type facilities, and been in job shops that did everything from A-Z. A journeyman in any one of these environments takes on a different description even if they are using the same processes and skills in many cases. Worked with an individual who came in touting 22 yrs. as a "journeyman" machinist. The boss gave him instructions to jump on a particular lathe and produce a particular part. He didn't even know the first thing about starting on the job. Came to find out that he had worked in a production facility and was a parts loader all of those years. He had his journeyman "status", his card, retirement, etc. Was he a journeyman machinist? That could be debated relative to your description of one. I now work in a community college as a welding instructor. We see a large number of individuals pass through our program, many are very talented and have the kind of drive that will bring them future success. Others are not quite so well equipped when they leave, yet even many of them do get "there", possibly not so quickly. We do our darndest to let them all know, in no uncertain terms, that their working careers have just begun and to leave their cockiness checked at the door when they venture out into the working world. If this kid is "young" as you have stated, he may have his own view of himself whether his instructors planted it there or not. He may have already been told by his instructors, peers, parents, and any number of others that his journey is just beginning, yet being that youngster that we all once were he may need to find this out on his own. When I was 18/19, as the cliche goes; my parents just weren't very smart, as I got older I can't tell you how much smarter I believe they became. Certainly share some of your frustration, yet much of this has a way of working itself out in the long run. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:We've got three guys at work that have their red seal, geeesh, they shouldn't even be a trained seal. It's not bad that they're young, everybodys got to start somewhere but the fact that they have a red seal tics me off. One fella can barely strike an arc and can't fit for s$!t, the other can weld better but not the best and he can't fit neither. The third can weld, relatively good fitter and what he doesn't know he'll ask...and listen when you tell him something.The day they arrrived at work and announced that they passed their test for certification, I lost all respect for the red seal system. To me it means very little, sorry :-(......Mike
Reply:Fresh out of college professionals!  Every few months we have one of these "professionals" come around and try to tell us what we are doing wrong in our business that has been in the family for over 100 years.
Reply:You guys have the same problem with welders that I had with the ASE master techs that showed up every 4 months from the local community college.  It was like clockwork, hire one or two in, spend a ton and a half of money training them and out the door they went to change the world of auto repair.  Once in a while we would get one worth keeping, but they were few and far between.  Most had an inflated view of there abilities that soon got deflated in the real day to day world of getting to work on whatever came through the door.  Unfortunately it is a dog eat dog world where the fitest survive and the others get eaten on the way out.  Many possibly good techs get hammered like this before they have paid there dues and bled enough to get a clue.  Some leave before they get enough experience, but the ones who stick usually make good concentious high quality techs.   The trick is deciding which ones to mentor and which ones to let fall by the waysides.  The trades are self cleaning if given enough time to allow them to get winowed out by demanding they meet the same standards we meet, work on what we got or go hungry "flat rate aint fer sissies".BobI'm spending my Kids inheritance, I dont like him that much anyway!!!!!!Enuff tools to do the job, enough sense to use em.Anybody got a spare set of kidneys?  Trade?
Reply:There needs to be some clarification about welding as a trade.  Historically on the West Coast of Canada welding was a qualification and not a trade.  I got to see the history first hand when working in the shipyards and reading some of the arbitration rulings.   Riveters in the yards ( this is 70 years ago) began losing those duties and started doing the welding in the shipyards.  Fitters who did the installation of ship plates and assemblies relied on the riveters to follow after them.  The duties of the riveters turned to welding and so fitters would tack weld only and the welders would follow along welding.  A common rule today is that ship fitters only do tacks no longer than two inches.   This is one of the reason you see the separation of fabricator as a trade and welder as a qualification and only recently ( last 30 years) a trade.  I am a journeyman fabricator and also an A certified welder.  Slagging welders and fabricators is standard for the industry.   Sit around a lunch table and the friendly jibes will start.   I really do not consider myself a pressure welder even though I qualified long ago.  I have seen fully ticketed pressure welders fired after only two days working with light gauge tubing and sheet.  I have seen fabricators shown the road in structural shops simply because they spent most of their career working in sawmills and had little knowledge about structural work.  I have seen very competant ship fitters that are totally confused when presented with a structural drawing.  mb welder:  You live in the Okanagan as I once did.  I can remember coming back down to the coast working in a large tank shop.  The first little job I was given was quite mickey mouse and when I had tack welded the things together I proceeded to weld them up.  The boss ran over and stopped me because he had a welder he was going to put on that job.  I was used to procedures in the interior of BC where fabricators were expected to weld also.    Go to Alberta and a "fitter" is what we in BC call a "fabricator" only he likely has 90 percent experience with pipe and is lost when asked to to some fancy connection on a wide flange beam.    Having a Red Seal is a "minimum" qualification telling the employer that he person has some basic training and expereince.  That is why smart employers ask where a guy has worked before to understand from which part of the industry he comes from.
Reply:Hello lotechman, enjoyed your post. There are so many different descriptions and expectations for "Journeymen". Whether we are a welder in a sawmill or a nuclear plant we may very well possess all of the skills required by our position, which does make us "journeymen". Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by mrmikeyWe've got three guys at work that have their red seal, geeesh, they shouldn't even be a trained seal. It's not bad that they're young, everybodys got to start somewhere but the fact that they have a red seal tics me off. One fella can barely strike an arc and can't fit for s$!t, the other can weld better but not the best and he can't fit neither. The third can weld, relatively good fitter and what he doesn't know he'll ask...and listen when you tell him something.The day they arrrived at work and announced that they passed their test for certification, I lost all respect for the red seal system. To me it means very little, sorry :-(......Mike
Reply:lotechman, and allan, Thank you both for your contributions to the forum.  I for one, appreciate your input.
Reply:Sorry for not explaining.  In Canada we have a national list of trades and about twenty years ago they started to create standards so that if you were trained as a plumber in Ontario you also would be recognized in British Columbia.  To create the standard they decided that after you have your provincial qualifications as a Journeyman ( four years apprenticeship plus schooling), you can write an exam.  I think you need 70 % to pass and be issued your Red Seal.  Most apprentices now have to write the final Red Seal exam in order to get their provincial journeymans qualification.  I have a Red Seal in metal fab but never got my Red Seal in welding.  The exams are about two to three hours long,  They give you something like the whole morning (4 hours)   An alternate way from a 4 yr apprenticeship is to prove that you have been working in the trade for five years.  You have to supply letters and record of employment from your employment insurance.  You take the challenge test and if you pass they give you a TQ ( trades qualification) .  I have seen welders attempting the TQ and most discover that they have to take a few months upgrading before they try again.  The test involves all positions with a bit of stick, hard wire, and flux core with some tig and pipe also.  There is even some backgouging in there. ... the welds take most of the day.  Coupons are cut and bent.  The welders also have to write an exam.   The reason we have it goes back to our British Commmonwealth roots.  The commonwealth countries at one time had the London City Guilds qualification.  I would like to hear from some people who know if it is functioning.... I know Margaret Thatcher deep sixed a lot of it.  You could go to any Commonwealth country and your trades qualification was accepted.  In the construction trades those final exams involved an inspector comming on the site.   He and the foreman would lay out your weeks work and the inspector would come back on Friday to decide if you made it or you would try again 12 months later.  That is after you have successfully completed 4 years of apprenticeship.  The guild system goes all the way back when stonemasons made castles.  If you were not a member of the guild there was no way you were building a castle and getting fed for your troubles.
Reply:Here's a link to the Ellis Chart and the Interprovincial Standards Red Seal.http://www.ellischart.ca/[email protected]?cid=2In Canada some trades are Mandatory, others are Elective - It is up to the discretion of the Province or Territory that you reside in - The links are on the Ellis Chart. I am a Journeyman Automotive Mechanic (Automotive Service Technician) and a Journeyman Welder - Both trades are considered Mandatory in Alberta -  I have written the exams and also have Interprovincial Standards Red Seals for both trades.In many Provinces or Territories these trades (as an example) are considered Elective so the gov't does not force the industry to follow approves apprenticeship guidelines (like they do in Alberta)   Specific to Welding, the employers can then opt to certify with the CWB (Canadian Welding Bureau) or test to Interprovincial Standards and create for themselves a "Skilled Workforce" of "Red Seal" Tradespeople.The issue arises when the "Red Seal" Tradespeople come over to Alberta and believe that they are "The Same" as an Alberta Journeyman Tradesperson with an IP Red Seal.  Not comparing Apples to Apples.For ME, the IP Red Seal is just an extension of my proper Gov't Apprenticeship Certification... It is NOT the Certification itself.There is even a fair bit of confusion between Alberta and BC.  We have 1st 2nd 3rd year Apprentices and then Journeyman, they have C Level, B Level, and A Level Welders.  I do not like the fact that the 2 provinces cannot get along and make the programs "Equal" because I have seen MANY C Level welders come over from BC that have had to start from scratch with the Alberta system.To further confuse the point, BC considers their "B Level" Welders to be "Equal" to the Alberta Journeyman... I guess then some would consider a BC "A Level" welders to be better trained an Alberta Journeyman.  This part of the discussion never ends well so this is where I choose to bow out.Have a Nice Day.Later,Jason
Reply:You can bitch all you want about lower standards getting "watering down" your qualification if that is what is going on. If all you are bitching about is that maybe someone can get a certificate in 3 years instead of however long it took you; that makes you look petty and jealous. Are you implying that it is impossible for someone to become a journeyman level welder 3 years after completing schooling? I am sure there are plenty of people out there who could accomplish it. For me personally; I know I will never get there. Not in 3 years, not in 30 years. I don't have the talent for laying down super precise beads and the like. My fine motor skills just aren't up to it. My hands are too bulky. I'd never make a good surgeon either. I am good with a grinder though and thats good enough for the hobby welding I plan on doing Last edited by Groo; 01-14-2012 at 10:51 AM.
Reply:Blackwolf hit the nail on the head about all the politics going on.Groo don't worry.  I always tell students that welding takes practice like playing a piano.  Also some will be better at playing the piano than others.  It is just the way it is.   The only time it bothers me is when I encounter someone who is a natural and unfortunately he is lazy or drug addicted... What a waste!   An instructor told me a few years ago:  "There is a job for every welder."  He is right.  It may not be the same welding job but there are so many types of welding that there is some job somewhere waiting for the right welder to come along.
Reply:Hello daddy, I frequent a number of the welding forums. Sometimes I respond to posts when I feel that I can contribute or offer a possibly different point of view or maybe even clarify one. I also appreciate responses that differ from mine, having another point of view or different set of experiences can be a learning experience for anyone, certainly I can always learn. There are any number of individuals out on the worldwide web that have contributions that they can make to conversations/threads. There are some occasions where threads turn into pissing matches, I still read them, I just generally avoid getting into the fray when the responses have become pointless or gone from where they are informational or providing learning opportunities to being something else. As questions or topics arise within any forum individuals will respond, they may have hard facts to respond with, they may have opinions, they may have personal experiences, they may have pictures to include, they may have any number of forms of comments to include. Age, politics, nationality, experience level, geographical location, type of industry, gender, social-economic group, heritage, the list goes on an on, all of these factors might effect a response or comment and for that particular individual, at that particular time, their response might be completely accurate and applicable. Those of us who read these comments do so from our own perspectives, experiences, etc. then we likely comment based on our own set of parameters. In other words, no one right answer and those reading our comments may or may not identify with our points of view. I do try to remain flexible and understanding of differing points of view, knowledge, application etc. There was a statement made in a quote that I copied from the AWS forum a lot of years ago, part of it included a very easy to understand, but not so easy to apply statement. It went something like this: one of the job skills that we need to develop, as we work and grow in our given trade, is to differentiate all of the B.S. from the accurate information and then apply it, or at least something close to that. Have a great day and regards, Allanaevald
Reply:I've recently turned out as a Pipefitter here in Atlanta, Ga and I'd like to defend some of my fellow apprentices. You really have to understand from where we've got our training. The willingness of a J-man to be patient and pass on the trade has everything to do with the eventual success of the apprentice. School is just part of the process. ie: I can explain to an apprentice how much that stainless will pull as the weld cools but he really needs to get his hands on it to see for himself. Some guys get stuck just doing errands, moving material, etc. without really getting a bunch of hands on experience. Conversely, many apprentices need to show due respect, show up on time, and bite the bullet when they have to do the busy or bull gang work. It really is give and take. I've still got much to learn and have found a little humility goes a long way when working with a more experienced hand. If I'd avoided working with mean, old, ornery fitters: I really wouldn't know anything.Last edited by regularfella; 01-15-2012 at 04:36 PM.
Reply:i was able to attain my journeymen red seal status in 2 1/2 years and the day after i passed my level 3 welding examination and Inter provincial test i was at the DOL test center getting my inconel, stainless, chromoly, and F3/F4. Also in manitoba, i work at the brandon generating station. having said this i took extensive welding courses offered in our high school from grades 9 to 12, also attended post secondary world skills compeitions. Once hired on with hydro i was able to finish up and become certified quite quickly due to the massive amount of exposeure to different situations, long hours and commitment to doing well is what you need. I find now a days these kids want the easy route, NOT all but most want to start off making 45$ an hr.
Reply:Hmm Journeyman in 3 years..??Seems to me it's been like that in Albeta since I apprenticed back in 1978.  It has not changed as far as I know. It requires 1850 hours per year worked in the trade and singed off in a blue book, It requires 3 times going to school for an 8 week period of theory and finally it is required that you complete: 4 weld coupons- Flat, Horiz, Vert & Overhead - all with open root - 6010 root, with 7018 fill and cap.  That I do believe has not changed although it may well now be done with FCAW.Now having said that...is the guy goin to be good..?? I have seen "journeyman" that spent their whole apprenticeship in a vessel shop and didn't have a clue how to fit up a skid or build a table or do any other type of fitting/fabrication that wasn't round.!!  These 8 weeks of course are primarily for teaching the skill of welding itself...and not the fabricating and fitting skills required as such...that is an issue and one that the schools seem not recognize or get the funding to do something about it.My experience in Ontario is that Welding is not a recognized trade at all. Its just a skill.  That must change.  The Red Seal means nothing out there and to tell you the truth, for me, it also has little meaning, It was a pretty simple (at the time), 100 question multiple guess theory exam that took me maybe 50 minutes to complete.  Pretty easy after doing the Alberta TQ.  It is relevant in BC and Saskatchewan and Journeyman are recognized but elsewhere in the country it does not appear to be that way.  That is unfortunate and stupid really as it hurts the mobility of our citizens and in the end hurts the country.  Why should we in Alberta/N. BC be bringing in offshore workers when we likely have qualified Canadians to do the job.??? Same goes for Halifax Shipyards or Vancouver ship as well in the new Frigate & Destroyer programs.My .02 stkLast edited by Steakman; 01-15-2012 at 10:59 PM.Welding Supervisor/PipeFitter: 35 yrs in..Welding Engineering Technologist('86) CWB Level II Welding Inspector ('91)Alberta Journeyman Welder ('81)