MM252, Nozzle Size, Tip Stick Out, Spray Transfer.

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A friend of mine is a professional welder. One of his machines is an MM200. I just bought an MM252. He does spray transfer all of the time on the MM200 with 75/25 Argon/CO2. The tip on his torch has a 5/8" orifice with a 1/8" recess on the tip inside of the nozzle. He has a Bernard torch and I have an M-25 (Yes, I know, no one likes the M-25...OK, OK, I get that.I don't have a spare $300 right now, maybe later. LOL.) My friend says that the recessed tip keeps the tip from melting during spray transfer mode. I can see that.  I was wondering what the effect of the larger 5/8" orifice would be in spray transfer and also in ordinary short circuit mode. Original Miller tips available for the M-25 torch are: 200-258  1/2" orifice with 2-1/2" length  (tip flush, std. equipment)169-724  1/2" orifice with 2-5/8" length  (tip 1/8" recess)169-725  5/8" orifice with 2-5/8" length  (tip 1/8" recess with larger orifice.)169-726  5/8" orifice with 2-1/2" length  (tip flush with larger orifice) 169-727  5/8" orifice with 2-3/8" length  (tip protruding 1/8" with larger orifice)Thanks in advance.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:Larger gas coverage is probably the biggest part, also would take longer to gum up from spatter and probably has less shielding gas turbulence at the same gas flow rate.
Reply:I'm not a pro, so take this with a grain of salt.1) I liked the M-25 on my Miller251.  The Q gun feels bulkier.  I guess it doesn't mater if your welding 1/4" plate all day, but I find my self working on 1/8" more often.  note: I now have a Q gun on the 350 and the Multimatic.2) In pulse (and presumably spray transfer) mode the work distance is typically larger.  The recessed tip allows more control over the shielding gas.  So you might run 3/4" work distance - that's a big gap for gas to escape.  Run a 1/8" recess and you only have 5/8" to cover....   Actually, it might not seem like a big difference, but I can tell that starting short circuit transfer weld with the recessed tip will leave you with a tougher start with more spatter.I use the 5/8 with 1/8" recess with pulse steel and about the same (eye balling it) with aluminum (pulse and spray).And since we are on the subject, the 251's preferred wire was .035 (ER70S-6).  With standard C25 the door chart went all the way from 22 gauge (or whatever the smallest was) to 1/2" (something like 14V to 24V).  That is enough to cover everything I've ever welded (well maybe not some really really tiny stuff).  And C25 was easier to get in small bottles than whatever you would spray with.  Unless you are welding some big stuff, it doesn't make much sense.If I had to choose between setting up a welder for spray transfer or getting a Q gun.... I'd save the money and buy more steel for my projects.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by con_fuse9I'm not a pro, so take this with a grain of salt.1) I liked the M-25 on my Miller251.  The Q gun feels bulkier.  I guess it doesn't mater if your welding 1/4" plate all day, but I find my self working on 1/8" more often.  note: I now have a Q gun on the 350 and the Multimatic.2) In pulse (and presumably spray transfer) mode the work distance is typically larger.  The recessed tip allows more control over the shielding gas.  So you might run 3/4" work distance - that's a big gap for gas to escape.  Run a 1/8" recess and you only have 5/8" to cover....   Actually, it might not seem like a big difference, but I can tell that starting short circuit transfer weld with the recessed tip will leave you with a tougher start with more spatter.I use the 5/8 with 1/8" recess with pulse steel and about the same (eye balling it) with aluminum (pulse and spray).And since we are on the subject, the 251's preferred wire was .035 (ER70S-6).  With standard C25 the door chart went all the way from 22 gauge (or whatever the smallest was) to 1/2" (something like 14V to 24V).  That is enough to cover everything I've ever welded (well maybe not some really really tiny stuff).  And C25 was easier to get in small bottles than whatever you would spray with.  Unless you are welding some big stuff, it doesn't make much sense.If I had to choose between setting up a welder for spray transfer or getting a Q gun.... I'd save the money and buy more steel for my projects.
Reply:Originally Posted by gnm109A friend of mine is a professional welder. One of his machines is an MM200. I just bought an MM252. He does spray transfer all of the time on the MM200 with 75/25 Argon/CO2. Thanks in advance.
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelson....ummm--one needs 16% or less CO2 for spray transfer. Above that CO2 content--75/25 for example and it's globular transfer.
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelson....ummm--one needs 16% or less CO2 for spray transfer. Above that CO2 content--75/25 for example and it's globular transfer.
Reply:This is from ESAB: Generally, what is the minimum Argon percentage required to achieve a “true” spray transfer?A. 75%B. 70%C. 80%D. 90%The answer is C, 80%. Although a spray can be achieved with around 78% Argon, we generally say a “true” spray requires 80%.This is an FYI and I posted it here to give an industry source/perspective to answer this question. I have also used plenty of 75/25, Argon/CO2 and run it at higher voltages (28 to 32 or so) and achieved what might be viewed through the hood as "spray", yet, by definition it is not "true spray". Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:To add a bit more to this topic: although this link is discussing Pulse welding mainly they are also including information on what is termed "axial spray transfer" and it has information regarding this process along with other modes of transfer. http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...ture/NX270.pdfThere is a lot of good content in these series of PDF's Hope that those who are interested get something out of this. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:what dave said x2Last edited by norite; 10-07-2013 at 07:32 PM."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:[QUOTE=norite;3144441]what dave said x2Which one is Dave...?Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:Hello qnm109, I believe the Dave his is referring to is Dave Powelson. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello qnm109, I believe the Dave his is referring to is Dave Powelson. Best regards, Allan
Reply:While the Q300 lists in the $300 range, it rarely sells for anything near that.  I got mine on EBay for $115 and I see them go sub $125 everyday.  Just food for thought.  No nozzle adjustment on them, need a new tip for every type of stick out.  Or you can buy a few 1/8 recessed tips and cut the nozzle off where you want the tip to sit relatively easily.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:I presume that the difference in the Q300 torch is the fact that it will take up to 300 amps. I could see where that would be an advantage for use in a shop where heavy welds are done all of the time. On the other hand, it's nice to have the extra capacity when you need it. I'll look around for a deal on a Bernard torch.By the way, have you ever set your torch in your lap while you adjusted your work only to discover when you start to weld that you have three or four feet of wire sticking out because you accidentally triggered the switch? Here a little accessory that I made to solve that problem. It's a trigger guard. If you make one, you can make the guard larger if you wear gloves when you weld. Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:[QUOTE=gnm109;3144981] Originally Posted by noritewhat dave said x2Which one is Dave...?