brazing with ER70S-6 rod

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I just bought 10# of 3/32" x 36" ER70S-6 rod. I'm new at brazing and someone sold me 10# of it for $38. I was told that I could use oxyacetylene torch to braze 18 to 22 gauge sheet metal. It this correct? and did I pay too much for the rod? He told me that this rod usually goes for $8 a pound. Also, do I need flux with this rod or is it contained within the rod? I'm new at sheet metal art and want to braze 18 - 22 gauge sheet steel to 1/2" steel re-bar. Thanks for all replies. CC
Reply:you could oxy fuel weld with that wire however i highly doubt you will be able to braze with it. Good luck Ryan_______________________OF COURSE I DON'T LOOK BUSY... I DID IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME
Reply:Maybe I'm misunderstanding what brazing is. I have a small oxygen tank and a small acetylene tank and a set of torches and regulators. I thought using an oxyacetylene torch with this rod is called brazing. I'm new at welding so please excuse my ignorance. So again, can I use this rod with any degree of sucess with my oxy/acetylene torch? and do I need flux.??
Reply:The way I see things....When you melt the base metal you are welding.When you only melt the filler you are soldering or brazing.Brazing uses brass/bronze.Soldering uses lead or some combination of lead, tin, etc.My name's not Jim....
Reply:The guy that sold me this rod tday said they were bronze rods. They are copper colored. Computer tells me that they are copper coated steel. I guess I got screwed again. I thought $38 for 10# of bronze rods was a great deal. I bought them off of craigslist. So....I quess these won't work for brazing?
Reply:ER70S-6 is a Tig wire for welding.  So...no, you won't be brazing with it.If you plan on doing 18-22 ga. you will prolly want something smaller than 3/32" anyway.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Thanks. CC
Reply:ER70S-6 Is also a GMAW (MIG) wire. For GTAW (TIG) welding shouldn't it be R70S-6 because it isn't an electrode, just a filler wire?Travis
Reply:Originally Posted by 82VDubDieselER70S-6 Is also a GMAW (MIG) wire.
Reply:At 8$/pound sure it's steel (whatever the name) for welding, not brazing and at 3/32 is too big for welding 22 gauge. With 10 pounds you have enough steel for welding a lot of 1/10 to 1/8 inch steel. I'm afraid that you have been...You can perfectly braze 18-22 gauge with a brass (copper-zinc alloy) but not butt fitted. You'll need some lap as the brass is not strong enough to hold the sheets if the surface of contact is not wide enough. So a lap of 3 to 5 times the thickness is needed. It's pretty delicate to make without warping the sheet and you'll have problems to maintain the 2 sheets aligned while brazing. Brazing uses flux.So go to welding.The solution is to use 0.045 steel MIG wire. Start with a 1 pound roll.  Welding thin sheet is tricky and needs training. There are a few videos on You Tube. You'll need aligners to keep the sheets aligned. I won't detail as there is documentation on the web. No need of flux. As you have plenty of 3/32 burn first some rods on 14 gauge to 1/8 pieces to learn the very basics (control of the heat and feeding), after you can go thinner.The good size of the torch tip and a light hand is primordial, that will come with the training. Expect to burn a few pieces of sheet before being able to weld correctly. But oxy-acetylen welding works perfectly for thin sheets. It's like guitar, training is key of success...Make a search on the web. There are several manuals in English.Last edited by Don Pablo; 05-18-2011 at 01:33 AM.
Reply:Lots of filler is thinly copper coated to inhibit rust."E" meaning electrode. Use a magnifying glass to look at the flat end of the rod, is there anything written there?Last edited by tanglediver; 05-18-2011 at 02:18 AM.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by clamchowderI just bought 10# of 3/32" x 36" ER70S-6 rod. I'm new at brazing and someone sold me 10# of it for $38. I was told that I could use oxyacetylene torch to braze 18 to 22 gauge sheet metal. It this correct? and did I pay too much for the rod? He told me that this rod usually goes for $8 a pound. Also, do I need flux with this rod or is it contained within the rod? I'm new at sheet metal art and want to braze 18 - 22 gauge sheet steel to 1/2" steel re-bar. Thanks for all replies. CC
Reply:And then there's "braze welding" ...
Reply:"brazing " is a capillary action isnt it? similar to "solering" where the filler is sucked into the joint. "braze welding" is a bead forming action where the base metals are not melted? you can gas weld or tig weld with that rod, but like stated above, I thinki its much bigger for your target range.
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmNot in 36" lengths...I always thought the E was for "electric".  Not "electrode".
Reply:Originally Posted by monkers"brazing " is a capillary action isnt it? similar to "solering" where the filler is sucked into the joint. "braze welding" is a bead forming action where the base metals are not melted? you can gas weld or tig weld with that rod, but like stated above, I thinki its much bigger for your target range.
Reply:Although the copper coating commonly found on mig and tig wire does somewhat help as a "rust preventer", it's primary purpose is to help lubricate the wire as it's drawn thru the forming dies.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Maybe someone could chime in with a recommendation on what he needs to do the brazing he wants to do? I don't know about brazing rod and flux selection.
Reply:I really like Gasflux's C-04 low fuming bronze rod and their Type B blue flux, as opposed to silver, when brazing materials that are very different in thickness or when I need to fill gaps. The flux soaks off a lot easier than most fluxes designed for LFB. And the rod has a nice temperature window to first penetrate deeply and then you can back off a bit and build up a nice fillet. And it files nicely, so you can sculpt your fillet after soaking off the flux.Last edited by zank; 05-19-2011 at 05:22 PM.Reason: spelling and more clarification
Reply:If you are oxy-acteylene welding you need to get the filler rod for steel.It will be copper coated.ER70S-2 is cut length filler wire. (ER) It is copper coated too but costs more generally.The ER70S-2 is for TIG welding. Its not that you cannot use it but it is slightly more expensive.Brazing is a process that adds a 2nd type of metal to "glue" the steel together.Not quite as strong as welding.WELDING is when you are joining steel to steel.ER70S-2Chemical Composition  ER70S-2 (Single pass)=S  TIG welding filler wire.Carbon                .07 Manganese         0.90-1.40Silicon                 .40 - 0.70  Phosphorus        .025 Sulfur                 .040 Copper                 .50 Chromium            .015Nickel                  .015Molybdenum       0 .15 Aluminum            .05 -.015Zr                       .02 -0.12Ti                      .05 -0.15V                       .03R45 OXY= FUEL welding rod.CHEMICAL COMPOSITION Carbon                .08 Manganese         .50 Silicon                 .10  Phosphorus        .035 Sulfur                 .040 Copper                 .30 Chromium            .20 Nickel                  .30 Molybdenum        .20 Aluminum            .02  So you can see there is a big difference between R45 and ER70S-2.Carbon content of R45 is .08%ER70S-2 is .07% And so on.Many differences. Now go back to the welding store and have the sales person for a refund and then give you the correct welding rod for oxy-fuel welding.Cheeeesssshhhhh!!!!! Welding stores falling apart too!Oh and BTW... The sales person should have been able to answer ALL of your questions at a real welding store.WAS it a real welding store- or a big box store that has children running it?Last edited by Donald Branscom; 05-19-2011 at 05:56 PM.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIAlthough the copper coating commonly found on mig and tig wire does somewhat help as a "rust preventer", it's primary purpose is to help lubricate the wire as it's drawn thru the forming dies.
Reply:Wow! So many experts and so much bad / incomplete information. Grab the book that is keeping the welding table from rocking, you'll see it is a copy of Modern Welding form 1968 or at lease my copy is.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomIf you are oxy-acteylene welding you need to get the filler rod for steel.It will be copper coated.
Reply:You can look it up."ER" in the ER70S-2 means cut lengths. E =electrode R= cut lengthsWelding is when you joint the parent metal to itself.When you use brass filler to join steel together that is called Brazing.As far as using ER70S-2 for welding with oxy-acetylene process, I did not say it would not work.You could use a coat hanger and it would work. I am just trying to point out the correct filler for the process.In California I have not seen the non copper coated wire for at least 15 years when muffler shops use to use it.Last edited by Donald Branscom; 05-20-2011 at 12:04 PM.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomYou can look it up."ER" in the ER70S-2 means cut lengths. E =electrode R= cut lengthsE means "Electrode" ( think MIG). R means "Rod" (think TIG or O/F), nothing to do with length. S means "Solid", not single pass (ER70S is used all the time on both TIG and MIG applications for multi-pass welding). T means "Tubular" (think Flux Core).
Reply:Originally Posted by welds4dE means "Electrode" ( think MIG). R means "Rod" (think TIG or O/F), nothing to do with length. S means "Solid", not single pass (ER70S is used all the time on both TIG and MIG applications for multi-pass welding). T means "Tubular" (think Flux Core).
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Thats what I said....
Reply:Amen some don't grasp it do they Attached Images
Reply:Back when I went to school if you could not weld sheetmetal at 18 gauge with er70s-6 you had to come back another time you failed, and many bodymen went home with chits of 18 gauge and became quite good real quick, so it aint that difficult.But the term brazing is does not apply in this case, the best term is fusion welding,if you are melting the alloy similiar to your base metal and you should be using, yes er70s6 at 1/16 or less .040.Even e70s-6 or s2 .030 mig wire twisted back on itself.Start your weld out with some filler rod(e70s6) then back away with the fill and it is easy to run a butt without any fill at all, gas or tig, fusing the sheet to itself, with gas you can pull the torch back abit to control heat.Tig you have a pedal.You don't want to braze in this modern day and age,I take it most often to mean using filler rod with brass or bronze on dirty dissimiliar metals because the flux improves adhesion and cleaning action.Good Luck
Reply:To weld is = heat plus pressure.
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmI think maybe you had better look it up.  I've got a 45 lb spool that starts with the "ER" designation.  I suppose that's still a cut length.  Just a little longer than 36".....
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomI suppose so.Because the SAE,ASTM and AWS say The "ER"means the filler can be used for either GTAW or GMAW.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardTo weld is = heat plus pressure.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88If you really want to get into the specifics, you don't need both heat and pressure to create a weld either, IE; explosion welding.
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmDid you proof read your post?  I ask because an explosion produces both heat and pressure.  Lots of it.
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmDid you proof read your post?  I ask because an explosion produces both heat and pressure.  Lots of it.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88If you really want to get into the specifics, you don't need both heat and pressure to create a weld either, IE; explosion welding.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2I think Snoborder was using that only as one example where both heat and pressure are needed. Gas welding would be an example of where pressure isn't needed.What mostly determines how tough horsemeat is; how hard it's been ridden,  or how long it's been dead?    If a blacksmith took an old hunk of steel, carefully forged it long and round so it could be called a "wire", it could be used as an electrode but wouldn't be a "cut length". Then again, he'd probably make it to use as a "Coat Hanger" !
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardHeat and pressure are the only two things present in all welding of all materials.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Obviously yes, but the heat does not contribute to the bond created between the two materials. Hense it is known as a solid-state welding process. An enormous press could accomplish the same thing if it was able to produce the same material velocities.The same could be said for coextrusion welding, cold welding, forge welding, roll welding and to a point friction stir welding which creates some heat but happens well below the melting point.Taken from "Principals of Welding" by Messler-"According to the American Welding Society (AWS), “Cold welding (CW) is a solid-state process in which pressure is used at room temperature to produce coalescence of metals with substantial plastic deformation at the weld.”
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardAll welding takes "X" amount of energy, be that energy as force or heat. it is the same.
Reply:Now you know why the U.S. Navy calls its welding research center the "Materials joining center". LOLThere are at least 50 different welding processes.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Check AWS A 3.0 for definition of welding, brazing, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fred sCheck AWS A 3.0 for definition of welding, brazing, etc.