Harden The End...

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Customer needed a new shaft for a slurry grinder but the ends are not hard enough when using 316 Stainless...The bearing and seal ride on the end but the seal was digging into the shaft after a couple of weeks so a new shaft was made from 316 again but with a hard end!The customer wanted something welded to it NOT on it..So......What we did was use some Wearshield rod for filler!..TIG applied..After some trial and error I figured it all out...Pics are in order..Pic 1.. Rod of choicePic 2.. Brass hammer to remove flux coating..Pic 3.. After the wire wheel treatment..Pic 4.. Stainless shaft end to be treated..Pic 5.. First weld.. More next post.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Here is where it gets interesting...The shaft was hard afterwards...That's not the problem..After wasting a brand new carbide toolbit the toolpost grinder was the next choice for machining..When I got to .010 over finish all these "Pitts" were showing up..So after another coat of rod I ground it to .030 over THEN.....I went over it with the tig BUT no filler was added this time..After grinding all the pitts were gone and it turned out great!The shaft was installed 3 weeks ago and the customer reports NO problems at all!!Pics in order..Pic 1.. New Toolbit!Pic 2.. 30 seconds later..Pic 3.. Toolpost Grinder in use..Pic 4.. Pitts at .010 over..Pic 5.."Reweld" with no filler..One more post.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Just the finished pics..YES! this does work and work good!First time I ever used stick rod for filler but what the hell someone has to do it..I get all the fun jobs......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Good job as usual. Looks like one of the messes I get into from time to time. I have some hard surfacing rods that where made for Oxy-Acet welding. Real old stock. I can't remember the last time I used one for hard surfacing. I have used them a few times when I wanted a good hard small piece of round stock.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Nice looking job, tough on the old carbide huh? I have used a ceramet insert for hard materials before and worked well. Can't recall where I heard it but part of the content of the insert was some sort of rice hull or rice stalk. Could be an old wives tale, but the stuff cut through hard material like butter although you did have to take fairly light cuts or it was prone to fracture. "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:Umm...I hate to be the one to point out the obvious here, but there's a pretty solid chance that the majority of the hardness and wear protection that would come from using a hard facing rod is from the alloying elements contained in the flux, which you removed.  So what ever deposit was left on the shaft now is far from what it was intended to be, who knows how well it will wear?Point I'm trying to make is, why not just use the rods the way they were meant?  It would have taken a fraction of the time and probably resulted in a better finished product.Not to say your fix won't work, but it seems like you tried to reinvent the wheel.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:I like the "Do Over" second pass to reduce voids photo... Nice work.  One really dumb question... Could you have stick welded the hardface rod to the shaft in the first place, instead of using TIG?
Reply:Would interpass temp be a concern on this shaft being it is SS?  Seems to have been run hot.  Looks a little like a burnt SS weld, thats why the question.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Umm...I hate to be the one to point out the obvious here, but there's a pretty solid chance that the majority of the hardness and wear protection that would come from using a hard facing rod is from the alloying elements contained in the flux, which you removed.  So what ever deposit was left on the shaft now is far from what it was intended to be, who knows how well it will wear?Point I'm trying to make is, why not just use the rods the way they were meant?  It would have taken a fraction of the time and probably resulted in a better finished product.Not to say your fix won't work, but it seems like you tried to reinvent the wheel.
Reply:Nice Job ZapI have done a lot of hard facing with AH2 and even Tube Borium and StooditeUsing the same method with both Tig and O/ABacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:You never know what lurks under the flux? Carry on.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88You never know what lurks under the flux? Carry on.
Reply:Why not use a Speedy Sleeve where the seal rides?
Reply:Originally Posted by TIGguyWhy not use a Speedy Sleeve where the seal rides?
Reply:I'll paraphrase my semi-auto instructor, "You have to TELL the flux ... what to do."  He was speaking of fluxcore wire, but slag is slag.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Oh I get it now..Flux..Slag...Whatever..You end up chipping it off in the end anyway......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:[QUOTE=sn0border88;1138801]Umm...I Point I'm trying to make is, why not just use the rods the way they were meant?  It would have taken a fraction of the time and probably resulted in a better finished product. when you think about the time to chip and brush and add in the fact you don't have the heat control of a TIG, how would you have done this job in a fraction of the time with Stick welding?"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:No fun working a while and finding pits zap, the work around looks alright though.I'll try to think through some of the questions above out loud a bit. The wearshild rod is E-Fe6 filler about 2.1%C /.7-.9%Mn / 5-7%Cr / 2-3%Si / .3-.5%Mo (from memory). When welded on thick section it's pretty much Ni-hard cast iron in the "white iron" condition and will be in the mid 50's rockwell C hardness range. It's very cold abrasion resistant and similar chemistry is used for heavy ball mill media.The rod has a graphite flux so you can only guess at the expected pickup of carbon in the weld process if any. Balance iron steel material with more than 1.2%C is not going to draw to wire below red or near red heat in manufacture, so if the 2%+C is in the wire they are drawing at elevated temps and the cut to length process will be very different from normal. The closest tube wire product would be something like Lincore50 (has less carbon & lower hardness).So my bet is it was not 2.1%C in the wire and without flux you have a 1%C air hard tool steel with over balance Si which prolly means nothing here since the section is so thin. You are probably close to the AH2 K'dozer mentioned above.As for doing the SMAW thing, I'm gonna have the man in his comfort zone, when the hand is used to working at 10:00 and carrying the stringer side to side (very hot & very fluid) it's fast & cleans up quick. If not done well then the bumps and inclusions aren't worth the effort as rework & patching take away any speed advantage. I've worked with people who could do this with cobalt electrode (sluggish) one hand rolling the shaft & the stinger hand going side to side and it looked much like laywire tig, I'm no match for that.The HAZ and slow quenched 316 just under the overlay is going to harden up but the balance section of 316 under that is plenty ductile to move and survive without cracking.To my knowledge there is no bare rod like this, but grade60 cast iron rod could be flame or tig applied then later re-heated and quenched (that doesn't sound smart to me, likely crack badly).For this purpose with tig, a filler salesman is gonna recommend Nickel/Chrome/Boron bare rod for cold/wet abrasion or Cobalt/Chrome for any hot abrasion at a scary cost per pound but picked right it's very safe to apply and can range harder.A speedy sleeve is much the same as your shafting (just a real thin wall sleeve) so it would wear through rapidly.Seal areas under cold abrasion are usually a learn as you go thing where you try to bring production up vs maintenance. Sometimes you have to search for a softer material and the right seal where product embeds in both the seal and the shaft and just rubs on itself. Patience is key but is worth the effort usually.Something new everyday in the job shop (keeps you sharp).Matt
Reply:[quote=kolot;1139901] Originally Posted by sn0border88Umm...I Point I'm trying to make is, why not just use the rods the way they were meant?  It would have taken a fraction of the time and probably resulted in a better finished product. when you think about the time to chip and brush and add in the fact you don't have the heat control of a TIG, how would you have done this job in a fraction of the time with Stick welding?
Reply:[quote=sn0border88;1140571] Originally Posted by kolotFaster travel speed and no need for a second round of passes to clean up "pits" which were probably gas pockets because all of the fluxing agents were not removed in the first place.  It might look clean, but it doesn't take much to generate a small gas pore.Heat control?  You saw the end of the shaft glowing red too right?  Heat control was a non issue.Plus, any moron with a wire wheel could clean that bead up in seconds.
Reply:Superb job ZAP! Sometimes you have to go outside the box and roll the dice. Nice work!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Easy Zap he's just another know it all ...but never really done it typeBecause to have used SMAW on that would have been a mess Tig or O/A was the best choice for thisAnd i have hard faced everything from horse shoes to rock crushersHey that dime is looking a little green in that pictureAH2 rod is available in bare O/A -Tig.Type rods i used to get it all the time for rebuilding the feed fingers and other stuff at the screw factory i worked at as a maintenance mechanicBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Easy Zap he's just another know it all ...but never really done it type
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Easy Zap he's just another know it all ...but never really done it typeBecause to have used SMAW on that would have been a mess Tig or O/A was the best choice for thisAnd i have hard faced everything from horse shoes to rock crushersHey that dime is looking a little green in that pictureAH2 rod is available in bare O/A -Tig.Type rods i used to get it all the time for rebuilding the feed fingers and other stuff at the screw factory i worked at as a maintenance mechanic
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88If you want to "press some buttons," go ahead.  But that speaks more to your character than mine.Originally Posted by sn0border88Yup, I've never done any hardfacing.   But like he said, calm down Zap.  Im not trying to encroach on your throne, I know it's no use trying to argue with you.  I just try and offer (somewhat) educated suggestions every now and then, to get people thinking.  And if I would have been referring to you in any way as a moron, I would have done so much more directly.If you want to "press some buttons," go ahead.  But that speaks more to your character than mine.
Reply:Im not trying to step on anyones toes here im just going to throw in my .02. I am a Redseal welder with CWB certification, and i did quite well in the book work in school. I just want to stand on the soap box for a moment. Ive seen stuff in the field, and also done stuff that was not in the books in school. It may have been against the stuff in the books but it got the job done. The ones who step outside of the box are the ones who are masters in their field and have used methods that are tried tested and proven. They will have the built in intution that tells them "hey this might work".  Then if it does work, they have learned something new, or got lucky. The ones without the properly developed skills who are going out on a limb dont know any better, they are a little crazy, might learn something in the right direction or might be dead wrong.  Just cause its in the book doesnt mean it cant be done. Welding is a process, constant learning and its also habits and routines. Weld like your childs life is in danger and youll be ok, also go with what your gut tell u....Thank you Ill step down for now. :PNothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Hey Zap....nice work as usual.Re those brazed carbide tools, I did much the same thing just the other day.  Had a weldment...3" round on a 1" plate...mig welded w/ er70S-6 then turned down on the lathe.  I found that the irregular weld bead surface was beating the crap out of the tools.  Problem was that the carbide tools, while really hard, can't take an interrupted cut.  I switched to HSS and it worked fine.  I just had to stop every so often and resharpen the tool...NBD.Once the weld beads were smoothed out I could use anything I wanted...HSS, brazed carbide, replaceable inserts.Again...nice work.Miller 211 w/ spool gunMiller Dynasty 200DXLongevity 60i IGBT plasmaO/A w/ crappy chinese torch/gaugesSouth Bend 10K latheGrizzly 4029 10x54 millGrizzly 7x12 hor bandsawangle grnders, bench grnder, bench belt sndr7.5 hp 80gal cmprsor
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11rebuilding the feed fingers and other stuff at the screw factory i worked at as a maintenance mechanic
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI was going to ask if he worked for a whore house rebuilding bed frames.
Reply:This site has information I cant even buy at a bookstore or library. I just learned to make my own filler rod I think.Now go weld something