Working with cargo containers

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So i have this project, see.... http://www.ecobox.me and i'm under some pressure to make it presentable quickly, since it doesn't jive with the pretty brick facades on the buildings. So i get stressed, and paint it white before welding, which makes everyone happy - but now the next phase is to get the windows and doors on. Like a noob, i write into the budget 4 months ago it'll cost about 200 a window to get some frames done, the box cut, and the frames into place.I'm at Home Depot looking at quickie saws thinking they might work to cut the corrugated container sides, since everyone has said not to try with an angle grinder, and that plasma's the only way to go, and i'm resisting that advice. A guy who does welding starts talking the talk, and the next thing I know, i've got them on to do one window as an experiment - they've got the gear and will do it for my $200, and from that get the experience they need to give me a good quote on the remaining 6 or so penetrations. I know this is lowball, but couldn't take them up on their quote for 2 days at $95/hr (2 guys) - it would cost as much as the container did in the first place! And I wanted to see their work. It was supposed to be a quick couple of hours- but quickly it came across they didn't quite have it together- hand cutting 45 degrees (I'd like to have seen a chopsaw), cutting 90 degrees before cutting the 45's (wasting 2" each time), measuring too tight and filling the gap with flux, etc. and so on.FIFTEEN HOURS later (over 3 days) it's done, and I'm glad they're gone, and I've got a frame in a window. The metal (2x2 11 gauge tubular) is bowed in slightly in the center (1/4-1/2") and there's a lot of slag from having to fill in the gaps of sloppy cuts done with the gas saw and a 14" blade and an electric angle grinder. They used a TIG welder but agreed later that they needed a MIG they didn't have. Halfway thru the welder fought with his manager/cutter, and left the job, calling me to say that he didn't want his name attached to whatever was done after he left.So, this is a wordy (I must be venting) way of seeking everyone's advice. What I want to do:Cut shipping container walls - very straight, and very cleanly.Weld frames into place (were 2x2 tubular, but now inclining towards 1x2 angle iron, perhaps a heavier guage than the 11 g we used for the 2x2).Seems i could get the frames made at a shop, or we could do them ourselves.Here's what I GATHER is the ideal:Cut the steel with a chopsaw set at 45 degreesWeld the frame together with TIG or MIG (does it matter for a tight fit?)Cut the walls with a gas powered-saw with metal blade mounted to some kind of rail or jig, and or set against a piece of wood or metal to act as a guide. I'm thinking i could tack weld a piece of tubular steel to mark the opening edges, and just run the saw back and forth along it to get a good straight line - but the gas saws can get heavy cutting sideways and for long periods- which means sloppy cuts.Weld a hopefully nice-fitting frame into a well cut hole with a MIG welder.So....I still only have $200 per in my budget, but we're a community college and have a big machine shop, heavy equipment program (maybe some portable rigs) , welding program (unfortunately no portable rigs), and i'm connected to various people around town with various toys (but none yet with a MIG). Problem with volunteers is getting that much work well out of folks is hard, and even if it goes well, it'll be hard. I was reading these forums and looking at welders myself, and probably going to take a class this semester (we get one free each term) to go with the one I took 15 years ago.But I'm looking for feedback and experiences, since clearly these guys had not a clue about working with stuff. The site has access to 110 outlet only.Here are some visuals:http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/se...7621883918303/there are numerous photos of containers- probably more than i've been able to find anywhere else- the sides are about 1/8" steel, and corrugated with a variety of patterns, which vary from roof to wall to end to end of walls. So in an ideal world, what would you use/do? (note, my ideal would be to have a robotic welder in a toyota factory just do it all for me, but that's not likely unless we get a very big grant, LOL)Open to ideas and thoughts- i'll be checking back here, but my email is [email protected] d.i.
Reply:I would make a Cutting Jig out of Angle iron to the size of the opening you need for each window frame.Drill holes in the Jig and then just use self tapping screws to hold the Window Hole jig in place on the container. You can fill the screw holes with a Mig later.You could then cut out the Window opening with a Sawsall. The Window jig will keep you from cutting off course into the Container. With the Jig in place you can also go around the opening with a Hand Grinder to square it off more precisely.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Build the frames in the shop, hold them up to the container and trace them with a scribe.  Torch the hole and use a grinder to sneak up on the scribbed line.  Could also use a recip saw to do the cut.  If you measure correctly and do a nice job cutting, you could eliminate the on site welding by putting tabs on the window frames and bolting them in.  Then caulk around it.
Reply:Sawsall mo' friendly to VolunteersI put a vent in our 40' Container using the sawsall- cuts easily.Used a 120v Mig machine to weld the Frame in place.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Broccoli-i figured a sawzall would be all over the line- not so? Maybe grind a groove with an angle grinder then sawzall? Just can't figure i'd get the nice straight line I'd want (80" for the french doors).I really want to weld all around, because that's what's replacing the strength i've removed by cutting out the wall. 80x72" is the biggest (2 of those for french doors) and those frames will be top and sides, whereas windows are all four sides.Needs to look nice - whatever we can do well, we'll duplicate, God-willing, across many more such projects - would like to do for FEMA, homeless, low-cost cabins, etc...Just learned i can get a 120v MIG... any problem with capacity there? Would it do 9 gauge to the 1/8" steel OK? I'm assuming you only need the big guns when attaching a big edge to a big edge, but not so sure...d.i.-------------pair of tweezers (victorinox)tape measure (off-brand)
Reply:Could I just use the frame itself as the jig? The holes would end up in the piece i cut out...I'm concerned about getting the inner/outer cuts right - since even just 1/4" off seems to have a heavy payment in terms of flux and/or rework. I suppose i could just use one jig and move it with each cut (so as not to have to make a custom jig for each size). d.i.
Reply:I just want to get something straight here.  You hired two guys to put in one window, and it cost you fifteen hundred bucks not counting the window it's self?
Reply:Pics would be nice also.
Reply:Fluxcore for sure. I don't think you need to go thicker than 11g like you used.With the Sawsall you'll need a Jig- the saw will wander but you'll need some type of jig anyway just to Scribe or layout the Window opening.For the Vent opening I placed the frame on the Container and then just traced the opening with  Sharpie, Cut out the Hole with the Sawsall, welded the frame in and then Caulked the joint.Like ya mentioned yer Labor force is really your limiting factor here- probably quite a few of the Volunteers would piss their pants if ya gave them a Torch to cut the hole heck, a 4-1/2" grinder with a Cut off wheel is pretty wicked first time around too.As Boostin mentioned, make all of the Window Frames in the shop.It just is a Labor intensive task- no way around it.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:You're probably working with Cor-Ten steel on the container.  It's a whole 'nother animal from what I understand.  Least that's what I've heard.  MIght be wrongI used to pull the things, and had occasion to drop some in the repair facilities.  The guys there were never really happy about having to work with it.  Why,  I dunnoTalk to someone familiar with the type of steel, and the process required.Everything I saw back in those days was torch cut."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmPics would be nice also.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammYou're probably working with Cor-Ten steel on the container.  It's a whole 'nother animal from what I understand.  Least that's what I've heard.  MIght be wrongI used to pull the things, and had occasion to drop some in the repair facilities.  The guys there were never really happy about having to work with it.  Why,  I dunnoTalk to someone familiar with the type of steel, and the process required.Everything I saw back in those days was torch cut.
Reply:Boost- no, their original quote was 45$ per hour for 2 guys, and they said it'd take UP TO two 10-hour days. That's 20x90 - almost 2 grand. I said that was about double what I had, and asked them to do one window for $200 so we could all benefit from the learning process (I teach web design, LOL) and from that they could give me a better estimate (than "1 to 2 days").  So at the end of it, he probably lost money, since he had to pay the welders, and the gas for the gen, and the sticks - and spend 15 hours or so. But i'm not sure i'd want them all done at $200 each (which I know is a good price) until we get the process cleaned up a bit.There are pictures from the link i included above (http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/se...7621883918303/) but here are some more specifics if it's any help:Welding frame: http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/Scribing on wall: http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/Cutting: http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/Trying to fit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/Cutting to fit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/Done: http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7621883918303/The had to fill a fair amount of space in - you can click the "all sizes" to get more detailed pictures...and there are several more. I really need to get some more cuts in in a hurry - and so far these suggestions are great.d.i.
Reply:LOL- funny that you mention that:http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/38...7622007684354/I picked this up same day i bought all the windows and doors and some misc. stuff- they gave me a one time 10 percent discount for the project, so i was trying to get anything i might need that i could justify. This way we can actually power some of the work with the batteries charged from the sun.However, the boxes are core-ten, which is supposed to be strong, and those i've spoken with who tried to use angle grinders/big grinders said NOT to do it that way... so of course I'm going to try it . What about putting a metal blade on a skilsaw? It's got that nice edge i can put against a jig, or heck, against a 2x4 for that matter. Any thoughts?I've heard plasma's the way to go, but aside from being a whole 'nuther piece of equip and skills, seems like a saw's gotta give as clean a cut if jigged...di.
Reply:Where ya at?I think I would use a sawsall.  It really won't take as long as you might think.  Just stay within about a 1/16 to an 1/8" from the line and touch up with a grinder would be a cinch.  As far as the welding goes, if you do a good job fitting, you could call somebody up with a proper rig and they could weld everything to the container in one go.  Like I said, IF you do a good job with the fit.
Reply:I have the same kit- almost 8 years now but I did upgrade to the Li batteries- world of difference in Power/performance.Anyhoo- You can get a straighter cut than those guys did- or should be able toI think they were fighting the weight of that Circular saw they were using and @ 200.00 they probably gave a rats arse after the first cutIf you decide to go with the Sawsall just get the 5" blades- you don't want anything long flappin' around when cutting.Also get 14TPI blades.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Hey EdIt got me curious because I've never dealt with it other than when I used to drive.Checked around a bit on the interweb, and apparently it's a 50k yield steel that is not too susceptible to weathering.  Apparently it welds as good as mild steel, the only concern being matching the corrosion resistance/or speed of corrosion of the filler with the parent metal. And that may only apply to thicker weldments I guess from what I read.  AND THAT'S IF I GOT WHAT I READ IN ANY KIND OF RIGHT SORTA WAYGotta be someone that works on these things on here"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:The problem with a skill saw will be getting a good blade that will cut well on that, not to mention setting up a good track guide. If I had to do a ton of these I might invest in a Milwaukee saw designed specifically to cut steel and set up a custom track setup like Festool has for their trim saws. ( I'd possibly call Festool, and see if their saw will work on their track, but I think the saws got to much plastic to work.)I would have made a cheap angle iron guide and set scaffolding and done it with the gas saw. If I planned to do a bunch I would spend the money on a diamond blade designed to cut pipe and such rather than the abrasive blades. You'll save money in the long run. Tack the guide right to the walls with the mig and run the side of the blade against the edge of the angle iron. I would cut inside the guide to start and see if I can get it to work that way. If you cut on the outside, you will need to undersize the guide by about the thickness of the saw kerfs. I would try 1 kerf width smaller to start. that would give you a small gap to fill if you split the difference, but keep you from needing to do a ton of grinding.Cutting on the inside you run the chance to opening is too small, outside that you will have a gap to fill. I'd also cut the window frames AFTER I cut the opening, as I can adjust that easier than the opening. At least until I cut a few openings and got an idea how close I can keep the openings to the size I wanted. Again If I had to do a bunch, I'd set the band saw up for 45 deg or if I did them in the field, look into a cold saw with the diamond blade to give me more accurate cuts than the abrasive chop saw. Again it's about quantity. one or two, I'd make do with what I have, If I had to do a ton production style, the better saw would quickly pay for itself in time saved.Now granted, I have hundreds of hours running a gas saw like that, both on flat surfaces, and vertical walls, so to me that saw is easy. The important thing is to hold the saw where it is comfortable to you. If you hold it out at arms length over your head, that is going to be tough. Hold the same saw, in near your chest at waist height and its a lot easier. Thats why I would set bakers scaffolding and work off that. Set it low and cut the bottom and down as far as you can on the sides,raise it and cut the top and finish the sides. I would have said less than one day to do that. Possibly by myself, depending on what that frame weighed. I might need a laborer to help set the jig and frames. If I had several to do, I'd set and cut all my openings and then set and weld the frames, to keep things simple.Where are you located by the way?.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:No clamps nor jig while welding that frame?? Then of course what you cut the opening with doesn't really matter if you can't cut straight. They could have cut it out with a backhoe and got it straighter than that. Cutting straight is as much a talent issue as it is a tool issue. Several tools will cut that siding. None are any good if the guy using them can't follow a line.
Reply:What's the final use and purpose of these containers?It's fairly easy to cut straight, with either a metal cutting circular saw, or a sawzall.My question, why bother? Cut the hole, insert the angle iron frame, having the outside lip of the angle overlap the hole.Drill and bolt it in, or use small tacks, all around.Fill everything else with some kind of silicone, or caulking.Probably more watertight, than the one just done by those clowns you had out there already.
Reply:I've worked some "container construction." Although the containers were for industrial use, and not residential quality. But... with a sleeping bag, sandwich, and a jug'a water, they probably would do. I'm wondering about the window type, and the container's insulation, inside finish panel, HVAC system,  and climate, before recommending detailed window fit-up. Regardless, I would probably try to design pre-fab windows, which would be shop-built, and then field installed without any further welding.Exclusion of elements has to be carefully engineered into any opening's design. You probably want a top "L" or "J" drain, which is wider than the opening. Opening dimensions also must be well-planned to be compatible with the panel's profile, so that ends land on flats, where they can be tightly secured and sealed.How would I cut the openings?Attachment 37495Oxy-fuel (as above) for field work, plasma for shop work. By the way, critters love to hang-out under containers.Sawzall, if employing labor with limited metal working skills.A guided metal-cutting circular saw would probably be a good choice too.If Alfred knew this job had to be "internet quality" he might'a used a torch guide and grinder. Attachment 37497Anyway, Alfred wants to know if there might be an opening for a container consultant?Says he doesn't need a lot of money, but he's wondering about maybe a room in the actual dorm.  Last edited by denrep; 08-24-2009 at 09:42 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by divonbriesenCut shipping container walls - very straight, and very cleanly.But I'm looking for feedback and experiences, since clearly these guys had not a clue about working with stuff. The site has access to 110 outlet only.
Reply:I work on sea-lands all the time, I mostly use a plasma cutter for making holes in them. A decking saw works well too. I work for a company that builds M.O.U.T.'s. I know lots about working with containers. I draw the lines on the wall with a sharpie, and free hand cut them with the plasma cutter. I cut window and doors into 4-5 containers a day this way.
Reply:Originally Posted by divonbriesenWhat about putting a metal blade on a skilsaw? It's got that nice edge i can put against a jig, or heck, against a 2x4 for that matter. Any thoughts?I've heard plasma's the way to go, but aside from being a whole 'nuther piece of equip and skills, seems like a saw's gotta give as clean a cut if jigged...di.
Reply:I thought this program over a little; to me, it seems like the windows are really a minor non-issue. I'm afraid that there's a much more serious underlying problem to adress...  the cost. At $20,000 for less than 300 sq ft of living space, it's just not going to cut it in the US housing market. There are just too many more practical alternatives. If cost is no object, and mobility is the goal, that may be another story. Especially if Uncle Sam is buying. (FEMA trailers??)But by the time Unc. specs a crib, it probably couldn't be built for 40K .Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 08-16-2009 at 08:54 AM.I'd use a tape measure and a large straight edge to layout the cut line.  Mark the high spots of the corregation with the straight edge and fill in the low spots by hand/eyeball (only 7 or 8 inches between?).  The template is a good idea if you also make a bracket to hold it square to the surface.  Probably only worthwhile if you're cutting lots of these.How about using a laser level?  I've never used one, but it might work to project a straight line onto the curved surface.I'd plasma or O/A torch for the cut.  With the wood floor inside you'll may need to lay down a piece of sheet metal or wet carpet. to avoid a fire.  Could also mark the line on the inside and cut while inside (blowing the hot metal to the outside).  Use good ventilation.  Who knows what's in that paint.  You probably should also hit it with a flap wheel to clean the paint off a 1/2" or so before welding.  Good fitup and clean metal will probably solve the poor welding.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:I don't see what all the fuss is about. Mark the holes. Cut the holes with a torch. Install rough frame opening made of channel. Use a dc welder with a 6013 rod. What is essential, is a rough frame opening design that will not trap moisture, and lead water away from the structure.Here is a link to a French speaking company, with no English on their site (damn them). The visuals might give you some ideas: www.maisonidekithome.com/
Reply:Divon, where are you located?Yup
Reply:Originally Posted by PookieIt seems obvious that you have never done any house framing, am I correct?  Your door and window openings are called rough openings.  The opening is roughly the size you will eventually end up with.  Once you hang your doors, or set your windows, trim covers all the imperfections.  Cut the openings with a torch from your industrial science dept and trim out the rest.  No one will ever be the wiser.
Reply:Originally Posted by BurnitDivon, where are you located?
Reply:Well, all I can say at the moment is, you guys ROCK! There are several posts here I need to follow up on, but going on a few hours of sleep, and first day of classes today, and as usual i'm behind (80 online students probably wondering why my dates still show summer deadlines...) - so hopefully later.But a quick summary - saturday went to the metal scrap yard and bought 20 floor deck panels (the kind they pour concrete floors onto on multi level commercial buildings) to use for the sloped roof (get sun off box, and get more rainwater, and maybe cover some more insulation above roof). We decided to give the sawsall (err. reciprocating saw) a try and with the metal blade that came with it and some more from the store (thanks for the tip about going short- didn't know at the time, and 8" seems a bit long). We were doing the roof, where the corrugations are not as deep and the panels flexes a bit when you walk on it. We scored a line on the paint, and then used a drill to go thru- seems ultimately a big bit beat the wood hole saw (duh) we had but it was really hard to cut turns to get the other corners out - so we ended up cutting holes on the diagonals (which gives you access to the other 2 corners nicely) and we were amazed by how much smoother the saw went then what we'd seen and tried with grinders and gas saws. We used a small piece of wood (1x2) as a guide, and it worked more or less, though I cut into it a bit- and it's tricky to go up and down on the corrugations, esp. as it loosens up and starts to vibrate- helped to put some tension on it.Fortunately, this cut was for an attic fan with a 6" flange, so plenty of wiggle room. Between drilling the holes and the saw, we fully used up 2 new batteries that came with the ryobi and went to corded sawzall, which naturally worked a bit better (but ultimately we want to power the job with solar, which means batteries are better). We did lose a blade- and were only cutting 4 feet total (12" square) but were mucking around trying to do turns (it ain't a jigsaw, LOL) - but i'm figuring that's the cost of doing bid'ness.So next go-round i'm thinking sawzall with angle iron guide, cut on inside of desired hole (so maybe tack-weld on outer edge? Bolt on inner?) More later- pics too, I hope.di
Reply:Hey meancoyote- do you have any close-ups of the windows? They look a lot like what we did (2x2 tubular) but I'd love to see the details. Looks like you were using new containers as well. Did you use MIG to put the frames into the walls? best,d.i.ps- feeling dumb, but what is a decking saw? (remember, I'm an IT guy...) Originally Posted by meancoyoteI work on sea-lands all the time, I mostly use a plasma cutter for making holes in them. A decking saw works well too. I work for a company that builds M.O.U.T.'s. I know lots about working with containers. I draw the lines on the wall with a sharpie, and free hand cut them with the plasma cutter. I cut window and doors into 4-5 containers a day this way.
Reply:Divonbriesen,Container roof cutting spells trouble. Cut and patched metal roof panels are almost impossible to keep sealed. If you could somehow avoid cutting the roof panel I think you will be much better off.But anyway, wouldn't permanent  modifications, which raise roof height, take the heart out of the project? With roof appendages, the containers could probably no longer be stacked, and the containers could  be too tall for even single high truck transport.Deck saw?Not to take the words out of Meancoyote's mouth, but that's a saw designed to cut through building roof decking, as installed.The most common deck-saw is gasoline powered, about the size of a chain-saw, but equipped with a rotating abrasive disc as a cut-off  blade. The blade looks similar to that used with a stationary chop-saw, or cut-off saw. Most deck saws are held free hand, per chain-saw, some are wheel guided.Also known as The Fireman's Friend, because when a deck-saw sinks through metal, insulation, asphalt, and wood, there had better be a fireman on the ready. Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 08-17-2009 at 01:09 PM.
Reply:Reading thru nearly two pages of comments, I've got to say that this has to be one of the worst thought out projects I've seen lately.Wrong design concepts.Wrong tools. Poor location (120v power only) for the job.Using the wrong tools and doing things on the cheap, will almost always insure that the overall project costs more than it should.Based on what I've been able to glean from the discussion, here's my take:Make templates for each of the window/door openings you plan to use.Plasma cut (Hypertherm PM 30 @ $1,000 will do the job) the openings.  Metal cut saws or sawsall's will have difficulty with the corregations.  Plasma will cut that material bout as fast as you drag the torch.Prefab the frames in the shop.  Mig weld on site.  Rent a small genset (w/220V) and use a small 220V mig to weld the prefab frames in place.If I've ever seen a case where the OP was being penny wise and dollar foolish, this has to take the cake.PS.  Seems that MeanCoyote has already answered your questions.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Hey hey!  I just started looking at cargo container homes about.... three weeks ago.  Seems like a really good idea and can be done for cheap if you have the necessary tools to make it happen.  I myself already have a 220 welder, sawzall, angle grinders, chop saws, etc etc etc so I think my building costs would be much cheaper than what you are doing.  I'd offer to help some so that I could get some more know how on the cargo container but you live in NC right?I'm going to follow you on flickr to see how you guys choose to do all the flooring, drywall/interior, and roofing.  I was looking at putting about four cargo containers together though.  two on bottom and two on top.  The two on top would over hang to create a shaded area where the front doors were, stair case in the back.  Or do 6, 4 on top, 2 on bottom with I-Beam supports at each end, stair case in the middle.  Any ways, I'm still doing planning and trying to get rough costs for things, not to mention finding a place where zoning would be alright for such an object.Hobart Handler 1871998 VW Jetta TDI - 1997 VW Jetta Project Carhttp://calebhammel.com
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepI thought this program over a little; to me, it seems like the windows are really a minor non-issue. I'm afraid that there's a much more serious underlying problem to adress...  the cost. At $20,000 for less than 300 sq ft of living space, it's just not going to cut it in the US housing market. There are just too many more practical alternatives. If cost is no object, and mobility is the goal, that may be another story. Especially if Uncle Sam is buying. (FEMA trailers??)But by the time Unc. specs a crib, it probably couldn't be built for 40K .Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepI thought this program over a little; to me, it seems like the windows are really a minor non-issue. I'm afraid that there's a much more serious underlying problem to adress...  the cost. At $20,000 for less than 300 sq ft of living space, it's just not going to cut it in the US housing market. There are just too many more practical alternatives. If cost is no object, and mobility is the goal, that may be another story. Especially if Uncle Sam is buying. (FEMA trailers??)But by the time Unc. specs a crib, it probably couldn't be built for 40K .Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIReading thru nearly two pages of comments, I've got to say that this has to be one of the worst thought out projects I've seen lately.Wrong design concepts.Wrong tools. Poor location (120v power only) for the job.Using the wrong tools and doing things on the cheap, will almost always insure that the overall project costs more than it should.Based on what I've been able to glean from the discussion, here's my take:Make templates for each of the window/door openings you plan to use.Plasma cut (Hypertherm PM 30 @ $1,000 will do the job) the openings.  Metal cut saws or sawsall's will have difficulty with the corregations.  Plasma will cut that material bout as fast as you drag the torch.Prefab the frames in the shop.  Mig weld on site.  Rent a small genset (w/220V) and use a small 220V mig to weld the prefab frames in place.If I've ever seen a case where the OP was being penny wise and dollar foolish, this has to take the cake..
Reply:OP= Original Poster- the one that starts the thread.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Y'know, whether you plasma or oxy-acetylene cut you still need a rough frame opening for the windows. Probably 3/8 to 1/2 inch all around the window assembly would do it.You could rough frame with  2 x 6 wood boards and attach them with heavy steel  L clips made from 3 inch angle iron bolted to the opening. ( four bolts per clip) This would give you a frame to screw fasten the windows to, and a rough frame securely attached to the container.Lumber will be 1 and 1/2 inches thick; so using a 1/2 inch gap all around, the rough cut opening needs to be 4 inches taller and wider than the finished windows.
Reply:I keep my machine tools inside a container.  And I have to work inside the thing.Impossible to efficiently insulate.  Miserable in Summer, and freezing in WinterHow in God's name can you make a liveable habitat out of a tin can??The energy to heat and cool the thing would be enormous to say the least.Go back to the old Fleetwood mobile homes if ya don't believe me.  They were miserable.Insulate until the cows come home, and it's still pretty miserable.  Plus, you're gonna lose a lot of floor space which is already limited.Fly roofs have been used for a long time with the old mobile homes.  They help, but don't aleviate the problem.I wish I had a grant to do this kinda stuff too.I'd probably try to come up with the perfect hermaphrodyte(sp?) cow.  Self service"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI keep my machine tools inside a container.  And I have to work inside the thing.Impossible to efficiently insulate.  Miserable in Summer, and freezing in WinterHow in God's name can you make a liveable habitat out of a tin can??The energy to heat and cool the thing would be enormous to say the least.Go back to the old Fleetwood mobile homes if ya don't believe me.  They were miserable.Insulate until the cows come home, and it's still pretty miserable.  Plus, you're gonna lose a lot of floor space which is already limited.Fly roofs have been used for a long time with the old mobile homes.  They help, but don't aleviate the problem.I wish I had a grant to do this kinda stuff too.I'd probably try to come up with the perfect hermaphrodyte(sp?) cow.  Self service
Reply:: Originally Posted by maartyThe insulation goes on the outside, not the inside. . . .
Reply:Originally Posted by denrep:I think that Divonbriesen posted that he has to keep the outside dimensions at shipping spec; so no insulation outside.They are a hot ***.Almost a perfect solar collector.  Good Luck
Reply:I think this project, like many I had to deal with when I took Architecture, is a good "design" concept, but poor from the execution aspect.The metal box, while easy to find, just makes a poor base to start with. If instead you were to use a stress skin panel to fab the "box" you would realize a ton of advantages and mass produced would probably significantly reduce costs. For those that don't know what a stress skin panel is, it's 2 surfaces that are separated by a solid expanded foam insulation. Works on the same principal as corrugated cardboard. The thin outer skins get their strength from the foam "corrugation" in the center. The industry typically makes these with plywood/OSB on one side and drywall on the other, usually in 4x8, 4x10, 4x12 panels. The thickness of the foam usually conforms to standard 2x dimensions so you can frame out a window by cutting the hole, routing out  the insulation and installing 2x's as nailers.The concept comes from the freezer industry and 4" of this can get R values of 20 or better with the right foam. Use a fiberglass skin on one or both sides and you don't need to worry about rust, rot or paint. These would cut using standard framing tools and attachment methods. Wiring chases/ boxes could be done prior to application of foam, or the panels could be used as "blanks" and wiring dealt with in an applied chase or surface mounted to simplify manufacture.A 6" stress skin panel is probably thinner than your corrugated container with insulation, and 3x+ better insulated. saving energy.  A bit of modular thought and these could go together to form any size shape etc you want, and ship flat to save space on storage.I know this goes beyond the original question, but it makes the design concept you are working with, semi practical..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I think you are right. I helped put up those wall panels with habitat for humanity a few years back, and they did go up super fast. It does seem, now that you put it as you did, that using containers is needlessly based on having a free container.www.maisonidekithome.com/has a english language version at the top right of their page; I am interested to know what you think of them.
Reply:Maarty. I guess I don't see much advantage over going with some other factory made homes. I've seen several built quick and cheap. Usually with a standard foundation or poured basement as the base. After that its followed by several factory premade "units" that arrive by truck and are "bolted" together. The last one I saw used 4 units in an L shape as the 1st floor. 2 pairs attached together on the long sides on each "leg" of the L to give about a 20' X 40' leg and a 20' x 60' long side. They installed a 2nd floor of 2 units over the 20' x' 40' leg. Set done and most of the roof splice done by end of one day. Interior already had the cabinets installed, most walls painted, flooring down, pluming / electric installed etc. The only things needed was to make the connections where the units joined and install finish trim in those areas. Most of the stuff was designed so there was little to no finishing required. Panels covered the joints and trim hid the seams in most cases. I doubt it took 3 day to finish the house inside after the day to set.I noticed on the maisonidekithome site that on the TV interview the woman talks about saving wood. Why? Wood is a renewable resource, especially engineered lumber like Glulams, OSB, Paralam, plywood, TGI joists etc. With the growing concern over carbon emissions, foresting trees is good. Young trees absorb more CO2 than old growth forests. What will happen to the forested areas if they loose their commercial value? In Africa many tribes are beginning to learn that hunters and safari's are big money makers. Rather than just kill off lions, other predators as well as grazers the compete with the cattle for food, it pays to promote them and get others to pay to watch or kill them. Everyone wins. The tribes get needed money, they stop destroying natural habitat to raise cattle that they can barely survive on, and they learn to value and protect the wide life from poachers. A live lion is big money to a hunter, and has no value dead. The same with forests. Young growth trees support a wide variety of wild life across the board. Hunters are willing to pay to hunt the deer and elk that naturally migrate to these areas. Hikers and campers will pay to use the woods for recreation. The trees have a value as a building material, and the waste products can be used to generate heat and power. And Nature will keep replenishing the cycle as long as you keep the balance reasonable. Where is the down side?If trees loose their value then what? The lumber company can get more money by selling the land to developers. The trees disappear, the wild life decreases, the campers and hunters loose a place to go, and at the same time carbon emissions will increase as there is less trees to remove the CO2. Those areas that are left become harder to work as the eco nuts slap more and more regs on the property owners forcing them to sell to the developers to survive. It's been happening near me with small farms for the last 20 years.The idea of converting containers to homes doesn't make that much sense to me. Mining steel is as damaging to the environment as logging if not done correctly, and recycling metals is often as power consuming as starting from raw ore. The reason we have a surplus of containers is that there is no incentive to send them back empty. If we were shipping products back in the containers there would be no problems. A better solution would be to design a container that disassembled easily so that more could be sent back in the same space. If you could knock the units down to 1 foot high after disassembly, you could ship 8 back in the same space as one. That would probably swing the pendulum back towards reusing the units as shipping containers rather than trying to find a poor substitute use.Last edited by DSW; 08-19-2009 at 02:30 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I am guessing that the incredible strength and relative water-tightness of a container would be hard to achieve in a knock-down unit. You might make some serious money with a patent. At least the steel is recyclable.As far as carbon emissions go, encouraging the Chinese and Indians to use birth control would probably to more than anything else in lowering them. I think in the near future impoverishment from lack of resources will have a domino effect throughout the world. I think the future looks grim.
Reply:You thinking about this too much.   ROUGH CUT the hole and build an angle iron frame in the hole and weld it or caulk it around.  Then put the window in the hole.    with the angle iorn frame your only going to need to get the hole close.You could use 1/8" or 3/16" angle to hold a window in.  as an upside you can then use the cut out piece as a dormer to protect the window in the event of a storm.  as for insulation again that's a simple one.   Just burry the thing in dirt.  I will be waiting by my mailbox for my consultation fee.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Don't you think it would be easier to rough cut the hole, and then put in a wooden rough frame? The window still needs to have something to screw into, and a rough opening with 3/8 all around; this way the window is fit for accuracy only once.