fixing an aluminum tank for a friend..

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had a buddy stop by this afternoon and ask if I could shorten a tank for him. Hes using it as a supply tank for his front and rear air lockers on his jeep..I cut several inches out of the center of the tank and welded it back together.. I used my 4x6 harbor freight band saw to cut it, used dawn soap and water as coolant while cutting and also used the same soap and water to clean it..  cleaned paint off with a wire wheel on my bench grinder, then went back over it with a stainless wire brush to get the shiny glaze left from the grinder, wiped with acetone and a paper towel.. I used my thermal arc 85tsw, gas lens, 1.5 lanthanated sharpened to a point with a small flat, welder set on 180amps, probably welding around 100 amps with pedal, .060dia. 5053 filler.  Its been a while since I've welded any aluminum and that was a couple of junk boat props we were putting back in service on out duck boat,  I tested the tank and no leaks at 120psi for 1 1/2 hours.    I think it turned out pretty decent.. Attached Imagestackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Sorry but welding on air tanks makes me nervous
Reply:Nope, i don't weld pressure vessels, especially not alum ones. Just me.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:I don't know much, but I do know NEVER WELD A PRESSURE VESSLE!!!!!!My friend still has to see the eye doctor to get shrapnel taken out of his eye from when we built a sand-blaster. Not to mention the ringing in his ears. that was back in January. Looks great, and it might work...till it doesn't. Do yourself a favor, buy one that fits.Millermatic® 252 w/ Spoolmatic® 30AHypertherm Powermax65Jet 5" x 6" Horizontal / Vertical Bandsaw DEWALT 14in. Abrasive Chop SawThemal Gel so the welding doesn't melt my Igloo
Reply:That makes me nervous too.  If it ever blows for any reason, you will be blamed.  Some pretty scary stories in the Safety section on blundered air compressor tank and boiler repairs.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Pressure vessels = bombsAluminum welds = notorious for cracking down the middle.Aluminum pressure vessel welded by someone with admittedly little aluminum experience = keep it the hell away from me!
Reply:I'm not really going to address the repair itself... You need to hydrostatic test... air testing will kill/damage you!  Generally tanks need to be hydro-statically tested to 150% (167% for DOT) of operating pressure.You can buy a tester cheap enough... a couple hundred bucks. When a tank lets go under hydro.... it is no big deal... with air it makes a bomb.You could build yourself a hydrostatic tester like mine. I did a demo with pop bottles to demonstrate the difference between air testing and hydro testing.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=88041At minimum take it through a hydro cycle and check for cracks with a dye penetrant.As for the repair not sure what to think.  Aluminum can be a beast under pressure. The big unknown is how the factory may have normalized (ie heat treated) the vessel after fabrication.
Reply:You may not have any problems down the road.......but why take chances of the thing blowing up on you?You don't know what alloy was used to construct it. You don't know what condition it was in when the factory welds were made. You don't what post heat treatments were used at the factory.  You don't know in what way your welds have affected the condition of the material in the weld zone.  With the common 60xx alloys, both yield and ultimate strength may be reduced by 40% or more in the HAZ..... unless post-weld heat treatment is carried out. I think it likely that the air tank was heat-treated after welding. that means that the factory welds are far stronger than the one you just made.Last edited by Joshfromsaltlake; 06-10-2012 at 01:55 PM.
Reply:brucer  -  You need to cut the tank back in half.   Opus
Reply:Opus,Best reply yet.With all that's been said/printed about welding on pressure vessels, I can't believe that a poster would still do this sort of dangerous stuff.  That's totally discounting the fact that the welds themselves would not pass inspection even on a non-pressure vessel.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:If your buddy can find a medium or heavy duty truck wrecker/ junk yard,  small air tanks are a dime a dozen.  that is what I have installed on my Excursion for the air rides and air tool connection..Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:not even being a jerk but that thing is a time bomb waiting to happen.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Forhire brought up the fact that you can do a hydrostatic test and also test the weld for cracks.  If it passes those two tests I would imagine that this air tank is good then right?  The only other issue I see would be in the future how would you weld this without risking it blowing up in your face?
Reply:First of all you do NOT cut the middle out!!!!!Ever wonder why they don't come like that from the FACTORY????If it must be done then cut the cap(s) off and put them back on after shortening the tube..THERE IS A REASON WHY IT IS DONE LIKE THAT!I realize the brackets are in the way but SO WHAT!That is a major problem just waiting for the worst time to become one....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by 66myndForhire brought up the fact that you can do a hydrostatic test and also test the weld for cracks.  If it passes those two tests I would imagine that this air tank is good then right?  The only other issue I see would be in the future how would you weld this without risking it blowing up in your face?
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonThe repair weld of  the tank is in the center--the portion that sees a highstress level. I'd strongly suspect that the inside/root of this weld is not completeor continuous--IOW it's a stress riser that can cause cracking from fatigue and pressure cycling, over time--aggravated by the HAZ effect of reducing the parent material strength (as mentioned by others).A hydro test and NDT crack test only confirms  the current condition of the tank. It can still pass those, and fail later as explained.
Reply:Dave has done a good job of describing the potential for cycling failure.  Aluminum may hydrotest OK today and the tank fails tomorrow.  You can bet it will fail at the worst possible time.  Unfortunately, it's usually not the jackleg that attempted the repair (that could help to clean up the gene pool) that suffers, but rather some unsuspecting bystander.Aside from the "design debacle" that Zap described, look at the weld and tell me if you want that riding around under the hood or in the trunk.  Way too much heat spread out over too large an area, creating an unnecessarily large HAZ.The only safe solution I see at this point is to SCRAP the air cylinder.  The OP has effectively destroyed what was a perfectly good cylinder.In the OP's opening he clearly stated he didn't have much experience with aluminum.  Folks, there's a reason welders get certified to weld on pressure vessels.  This isn't some duck blind motor prop we're talking about here.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I think brucer is ducking and weaving around this issue. Maybe another " i know it dont look prudy, but it will hold ". It may not even fail with the original owner, but what if someone buys that vehicle in the future and it fails on him?
Reply:I think it turned out pretty decent..
Reply:Mick,LMAO.Don't have a clue what "gobsmacked" is but I'm betting it's not a term of endearment.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:20 replies to this post and Brucer hasn't responded once. This is not like him. I would bet that if this had been a political post he would have been all over it. Brucer do yourself and your buddy a favor. Cut this bomb into pieces and never try this again. I won't go into all the details about what is wrong with this as it has been covered above."Liberalism is a mental disorder" Dr. Savage
Reply:he took it, he's had it in a steel tank full of water since Saturday afternoon at 150psi..tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:It has been said before.Aluminum tends to fail from cycling of pressure and temperature.All that you can figure from a pressure test is that it held this time.
Reply:Hey Brucer... If your friend decides not to use the tank for the reasons listed above, I'd love to run a destructive hydro on it before it get's cut and scrapped. I'll return it when done. I'll cover the shipping both ways. It would be really interesting to see at what psi and how it fails. Send me a PM if your interested.
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireHey Brucer... If your friend decides not to use the tank for the reasons listed above, I'd love to run a destructive hydro on it before it get's cut and scrapped. I'll return it when done. I'll cover the shipping both ways. It would be really interesting to see at what psi and how it fails. Send me a PM if your interested.Brucer's welding is like his political views....Don't confuse the guy with FACTS, his mind's made up.The difference between a pro and a jackleg is a PRO knows his capabilities and when to "walk away".  The jackleg doesn't and uses the "it isn't prudy, but it will hold" excuse.When (not if) this tank goes and someone is hurt/killed, a good lawyer will take Brucer for everything he's worth.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:When I worked in a boatyard, a customer had a steel fuel tank built. It failed a four PSI pressure test to spectacular degree. I learned everything I needed to know about building anything that might need to be pressurized. Of course a fuel tank is not a pressure vessel, but it was easy to understand the volume of air under pressure at just 4 PSI.Go cut that tank up and recycle it before someone gets killed. -IanMiller Dynasty 350Miller XMT 304
Reply:BTW,Has ANYONE ever used this 5053 filler?Must be a "rare breed" since ALCOTEC doesn't even list it and I couldn't find it in any of my references.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIBTW,Has ANYONE ever used this 5053 filler?Must be a "rare breed" since ALCOTEC doesn't even list it and I couldn't find it in any of my references.
Reply:Hmm, I do wonder if the tank was originally designed for compressed air duty.Tim Beeker.
Reply:If you want to see "whats the worst that could happen"  just google image search pressure vessel failureVantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseProbably just a typo for "4043" filler (common stuff).But that said, NO, no, heck No to welding on an aluminum pressure vessel.For all the reasons already said.- aluminum : unknown original alloy- WPS for the unknown alloy??- with too many unknowns, there is NoWayInHell that the item even comes close to meeting ASME Pressure Vessel Codes (if it even met Codes to begin with)- fatigue issues with ANY aluminum structure subjected to cyclical/varying loads/stresses- weld fails visual inspection, especially for an aluminum weld, for craters and surface variation (aluminum is -very- crack-sensitive to surface variations, see above about fatigue and aluminum)Slight + to the OP for doing a 'pressure test'.  Possible major (-) for doing a pressure test using air.Google "pressure vessel explosion"  + "potsko"http://www.cna.com/vcm_content/CNA/i...Report_CNA.pdfAluminum 'pressure vessel' failed after weld repair and being pressurized with air, basically cut the guy in half.  Fail for using air pressure to 'test', major fail on OEM for item that didn't even come close to Code requirements in materials or workmanship or design.  Sticker on 'tank' said "60 psi", item didn't even come close to that per Code, with all the material and design and workmanship screw-ups that 'tank' would be expected to fail at about 48 psi (and it did, fatally) and should have at most only been 'rated' for somewhere between 2 psi (corrosion safety factor included) to 12 psi (corrosion safety factor not included) max depending on just how many screw-ups and design safety factors you include (and ALL the safety factors should have been included).  RIP.Remove that 'tank' from use/service IMMEDIATELY and either cut it up or do/send it out for a destructive hydro test.  Do NOT just fill with air for  a 'pressure test'.  Do/send for destructive hydro test (just for 'fun') or otherwise physically destroy that 'tank' so that it never-ever is or can be used for or as a pressure vessel.
Reply:Sorry for the hijack, but I'm looking to relocate he lower radiator inlet on a BeCool aluminum radiator in a 69 Vette.  It will require removing the existing 1 7/8 outlet, welding a plate over the opening, and then relocating a 90* fitting to the side of the radiator about 3" up the side.   This will be subjected to numerous heating and cooling cycles.  Is this also a "don't even think about it " repair, or will failure result in littlle harm because it's fluid filled?   I'm fully aware that it's not tough for 200* antifreeze to hurt someone, but the entire area is shielded.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Hello drf255, there is a lot of difference between what you are proposing and what the OP of this thread has done. Mainly application and conditions. You have a radiator that operates in a range of probably 7 to 15psi max., is fluid filled, and has a relief via the radiator cap that acts as a pressure relief. The OP doesn't even say whether his tank is equipped with a pressure relief for over-pressure situations. If you screw up on your modification the result will likely be a leak or in a major situation. engine damage. I do not believe that you are going to be doing anything that hasn't been done many times by many other racers and car enthusiasts. When you test your modification for leaks is when there is likely the highest possibility for injury, so just don't test it with compressed air or other gases, use a standard radiator leak testing kit suited for that purpose and you should be fine. So in other words, no more than the pressure that the leak tester develops (probably 15psi max or close to that), they are designed as they are to provide safety and results for a reason. Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Brucer = OstrichJust remember one thing, when you've got your head stuck in the sand, your a** is in the air....that's where the lawyers aim.. Hope your "friend" dosen't die.    Please listen to the PROs here, they're not hunting for your business, they just don't want their kids cut in half,Last edited by bearston; 06-13-2012 at 09:53 AM.When a welder tells you to "stick it", what do they really mean?"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Reply:Brucer, cut the vessel in half, and give it back.  If it fails, and kills someone, this thread will be testament, and evidence that the death or injury could of been avoided.  By the way, no offense, but your welds on that tank wouldnt pass a visual inspection.  Bad juju brother!
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruzBrucer, cut the vessel in half, and give it back.  If it fails, and kills someone, this thread will be testament, and evidence that the death or injury could of been avoided.  By the way, no offense, but your welds on that tank wouldnt pass a visual inspection.  Bad juju brother!
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseProbably just a typo for "4043" filler (common stuff).But that said, NO, no, heck No to welding on an aluminum pressure vessel.For all the reasons already said.- aluminum : unknown original alloy- WPS for the unknown alloy??- with too many unknowns, there is NoWayInHell that the item even comes close to meeting ASME Pressure Vessel Codes (if it even met Codes to begin with)- fatigue issues with ANY aluminum structure subjected to cyclical/varying loads/stresses- weld fails visual inspection, especially for an aluminum weld, for craters and surface variation (aluminum is -very- crack-sensitive to surface variations, see above about fatigue and aluminum)Slight + to the OP for doing a 'pressure test'.  Possible major (-) for doing a pressure test using air.Google "pressure vessel explosion"  + "potsko"http://www.cna.com/vcm_content/CNA/i...Report_CNA.pdfAluminum 'pressure vessel' failed after weld repair and being pressurized with air, basically cut the guy in half.  Fail for using air pressure to 'test', major fail on OEM for item that didn't even come close to Code requirements in materials or workmanship or design.  Sticker on 'tank' said "60 psi", item didn't even come close to that per Code, with all the material and design and workmanship screw-ups that 'tank' would be expected to fail at about 48 psi (and it did, fatally) and should have at most only been 'rated' for somewhere between 2 psi (corrosion safety factor included) to 12 psi (corrosion safety factor not included) max depending on just how many screw-ups and design safety factors you include (and ALL the safety factors should have been included).  RIP.Remove that 'tank' from use/service IMMEDIATELY and either cut it up or do/send it out for a destructive hydro test.  Do NOT just fill with air for  a 'pressure test'.  Do/send for destructive hydro test (just for 'fun') or otherwise physically destroy that 'tank' so that it never-ever is or can be used for or as a pressure vessel.
Reply:jeeezzz......I even get nervous when seating a bead on a tyre that just been fitted to a rim.
Reply:I have been following this thread in total amazement. I cut my teeth in an ASME vessel shop right after getting out of school, and always shocked with the lack of respect for the potential energy behind vessels. I just heard today that one of our equipment manufacturers at my work have changed the way they plumb in the pneumatics. In the past they had "booster" tanks in various places, each one of which HAD to be an ASME cerified pressure vessel. Now, to reduce liability/costs, they are using pneumatic cylinders ( the industrial type with tie rods) without the rod or piston installed. It is a total bolt together unit, already engineered.   I know I kind of rambled there at the end, I just found it ironic that this topic came up today at work.
Reply:I understand the dangers of modifying a pressure vessel...However, this tank will probably be mounted under the vehicle between the frame rails (where I would mount it anyways), so the chances of it actually hurting anyone  IF it were to blow are slim-to-none.  I'd bolt it under my truck and run it...  Aaaaannnnd here's where everyone tells me I'm an idiot...Miller Syncrowave 200MillerMatic 180 AutoSetHobart Airforce 500iVictor O/A (80cf)
Reply:You obviously have not seen what an exploding pressure vessel can do.
Reply:700R,   we don't need to tell u as u pretty much just admitted it.   We could tell you to go back to pirate4x4 forum though where poor welding and lack of common sense are praised and encouraged...Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello drf255, there is a lot of difference between what you are proposing and what the OP of this thread has done. Mainly application and conditions. You have a radiator that operates in a range of probably 7 to 15psi max., is fluid filled, and has a relief via the radiator cap that acts as a pressure relief. The OP doesn't even say whether his tank is equipped with a pressure relief for over-pressure situations. If you screw up on your modification the result will likely be a leak or in a major situation. engine damage. I do not believe that you are going to be doing anything that hasn't been done many times by many other racers and car enthusiasts. When you test your modification for leaks is when there is likely the highest possibility for injury, so just don't test it with compressed air or other gases, use a standard radiator leak testing kit suited for that purpose and you should be fine. So in other words, no more than the pressure that the leak tester develops (probably 15psi max or close to that), they are designed as they are to provide safety and results for a reason. Good luck and best regards, Allan
Reply:Originally Posted by brucerhe took it, he's had it in a steel tank full of water since Saturday afternoon at 150psi..
Reply:sent it to me or the other poster and we can document and post back the absolute failure cause it will fail we in house hydro test at work to over 20k psi and higher with nitrogen in an explosion cage we do R&D at work for the militaryMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:So brucer, did you learn anything from this thread? http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MetalMan23So brucer, did you learn anything from this thread?
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI read that link. you realize that the expert writing it states the failure was not at the weld but was a negligent design and manufacture on the part of Oshkosh.   The latter of who claimed they were not catagorized as Pressure vessels under ASME.  Obviously he is going deep pockets here.  Good illustration of how the whole legal side of it works though.
Reply:I suspect Brucer HASN'T LEARNED A THING FROM THIS THREAD.He is from the school of "Don't confuse him with facts, his mind's made up."  If you don't understand this comment, then you need to go back and read his stance on unions and politics.HOWEVER, this has been a good thread overall.  Many new posters do not use the search feature and need posts like this to "reappear" ever so often to remind them that welding/fabrication can have serious consequences.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.