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I want to do a review/comparison of available aluminum stick welding electrodes from different manufacturers and post the results here on the WeldingWeb. As part of that, I intend to compare the applications of 1/8 inch versus 3/32 inch diameter electrodes.e.g. In a previous post, http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=45197 , I found that the 1/8 inch Hobart arc-welding electrodes seemed to run best at about DC+ 110 amps with 200 F preheat and were OK for 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick aluminum filet T welds. However, the 1/8 inch electrodes were a challenge to use on 1/8 inch or thinner aluminum - easy to burn through. I expect the 3/32 inch electrodes running at lower amps could perform better on the 1/8 or thinner metal. On the other hand, 3/32 may not run as smooth as 1/8.Further, the recommended amperage on the smaller 3/32 electrodes is typically 50 - 85 amps, considerably less than the 80-130 amps for the 1/8 inch electrodes. I suspect the 3/32 inch electrodes may prove more suitable for use on the small 110 volt inverter-type welders out there.To do the comparison tests, I'll need a minimum of 5 electrodes in each size from each manufacturer. (5 electrodes = 0.15 lb of 1/8 inch or 0.1 lb of 3/32 inch.)Note 1: Some of these electrodes get quite pricey - especially when the minimum package size to buy is 1 lb.Note 2: Living in Canada, some electrodes are not available to me - as several US welding suppliers will not ship out of the USA. Others ship only by UPS - who charge $30+ broker fees for anything crossing the US/Canada border (US Postal Service works way better for me).I've started gathering aluminum arc-welding electrodes for a hands-on welding pictorial comparison.At present I have these electrodes:Hobart 1/8 inch (0.33 lb tube at $13)Forney 1/8 inch (0.5 lb tube at $22Blueshield (Air Liquide) 1/8 inch (0.5 lb tube at $20)On order, or available to me locally are:Blueshield (Air Liquide) 3/32 inch (0.5 lb tube at $22)FHS EZWELD.ALU 3/32 inch (0.5 lb tube $34)Soudectec 70 3/32 inch (1 lb tube $65)Sodel 118 3/32 inch (1 lb tube $63)Other aluminum welding electrodes available in the USA are:Harris 26 3/32 inch (1 lb tube $27) - Cyberweld (won't ship to Canada)Harris 26 1/8 inch (1 lb tube $26) - Cyberweld (won't ship to Canada)Zena NO-Gas 3/32 inch (0.5 lb tube $20) - ZenaZena NO-Gas 1/8 inch (0.5 lb tube $20) - ZenaBowmaweld 25360 3/32 inch (1 lb tube $27) - WeldingdepotBowmaweld 25360 1/8 inch (1 lb tube $27) - WeldingdepotAufhauser AL-43 in 3/32 and 1/8 inch looks good but I couldnt find a sourceA few other USA aluminum electrode manufacturers that I found were:Aladdin - ??? Web site no longer works (for me anyway)Weldingelectrodes 3100 in 3/32 and 1/8 inch - no informationCastolin Eutectic 2101 S, 3021, 4021 - looks like super stuff but I can't find a sourceSo, if you can help me, I'd sure appreciate it.If you know a supplier for some of the 'no souce' items listed above, let me know.If you know of other manufacturers and their suppliers, let me know who they are.If you have 5 or more aluminum electrodes that you can spare, send me a Private Message (PM) and we can discuss how best to get them to me.Hey, if you have any suggestions or comments, I have my listening ears on.ThanksRick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Hey Rick,First of all, kudos to you for taking the time and expense to do some real research and data collecting to share with the forum. Nice job. Seriously.Second,I've used the Harris 1/8" aluminum electrodes in the 1 lb. tube. Since they were the only Al electrodes I've ever stick welded with I have no comparison experience to share. Only that they seemed to do what the manufacturer said they would.I got them from my LWS but only because I had to have them right at that moment. In case you are interested they are:Valley National Gases 1315 Parkway Drive, Howell, MI 48843-7568(517) 545-8500 vngas.comTheir website truly sucks. In fact, the selection in the store is pretty bad. However, the staff seem to have a "can do" attitude and that's refreshing. If you really get stuck looking for a source for these they might ship a lb. to Canada for you. I would love to just send you a pack myself but as a full time student, money is extremely tight right now.If I remember correctly, 5 electrodes is like half the tube or close to it.PM me if you get stuck and I'll see what I can do to help. I really want to encourage your project. Its the kind of thing that this forum exists for (in my opinion). Thanks for taking it on.Eric
Reply:Rick, I think what you are attempting to do would be an interesting venture. I liked reading your experiences the last time you did this similar thing. I really think you have a gift for documenting and presentation, but I do have one pertinent question:Have you learned to weld?You can't deteremine the quality and value of an electrode if you have mastered how to use it. As was mentioned last time, I think you have gotten the horse before the cart.
Reply:I agree with Scott 100%.What it would appear that you're trying to do, is determine which is the best rod to use to perform an inferior process. (Stick vs mig/tig)Lots of work on your part. Good reading for newbies. Proves nothing.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:should have read:You can't deteremine the quality and value of an electrode if you haven't mastered how to use it.
Reply:as Scott and Sundowner stated, that was question I was pondering too? I think you should post up some beads u run with 6011. 6013, 7018 on mild steel. let see some good beads, and if they are not good I am sure you can get some good pointers here as it seems you are willing to put the time and effort into learning. I will put some of the 1/8 AL electrodes I have together for you. Your beads did seem somewhat wild compared to the ones I ran with similar settings. That is why I asked about if the machine makes that much of a difference? in 15 mins I did get better beads on just about all my trials (even on the wrong polarity) than you did with your testing. These electrodes definitely have a place. I can think of a few examples. The 4 wheeler with an onboard welding system. any place where u only have access to a stick machine and don't have welding gas access. TIG on heavy plate requires a lot of power. These seem like they will do well on thicker material. Non-Critical welds or Get Your A$$ home welds... sure beats those guys mig welding aluminum with flux core or solid steel wire, (Zaps recent axle post) right ZAP?That said I would not even bother trying trying to use these for thin aluminum. also don't think pre heat is going to make that much of a difference. you can always run a short bead somewhere else on the plate and wait a little and it will provide plenty of pre-heat te the rest of the plate.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Wow...I had no idea that the standard for doing some experimenting and posting the results on this forum was so high.Let's make sure we don't accidentally encourage someone into doing something that may, if nothing else, be interesting. Its not like his last round with this process (inferior though it may be) had any interest. Nothing but a mere 3000 views. That's lowball compared to an Ed Mac drubbing.I say, have at it Rick. E
Reply:Originally Posted by Welding_SwedeWow...I had no idea that the standard for doing some experimenting and posting the results on this forum was so high.Let's make sure we don't accidentally encourage someone into doing something that may, if nothing else, be interesting. Its not like his last round with this process (inferior though it may be) had any interest. Nothing but a mere 3000 views. That's lowball compared to an Ed Mac drubbing.I say, have at it Rick. E
Reply:Originally Posted by Welding_SwedeWow...I had no idea that the standard for doing some experimenting and posting the results on this forum was so high.Let's make sure we don't accidentally encourage someone into doing something that may, if nothing else, be interesting. Its not like his last round with this process (inferior though it may be) had any interest. Nothing but a mere 3000 views. That's lowball compared to an Ed Mac drubbing.I say, have at it Rick. E
Reply:I am a newbie. Never welded aluminum with anything much less a stick welder. I would hate to read something, trying to learn a new process, and all the data I read was compiled by someone who didn't even know what they were doing. Regardless of how well documented, the data could be very flawed and I would have been very misled.Not saying Rick doesn't know anything, just stating my concern.
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott Youngso you're saying you would take marriage advice from jerry springer's panel of misfits? according the number of viewers they have they should really givbe good counsel.
Reply:Dude! Keep up the posts. I learn a lot from folks posting pictures, discussions and the narrative from their learning. One of the cool things about Rick's posts is that they pull the veteran weldors out and generate some discussion.Ignore the naysayers and keep up the great work.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:I feel that we have seen this all too often on the site.Someone suggests something new and/or asks for help and what do they get... Pooped On!Folks, this is getting 'Old'. What's with the pugnacious attacking attitude?We dont need wolves lurking here for the sole purpose of tearing our throats out of sheep.I don't think it's helpful or in the spirit of what we are trying to do here on the WeldingWeb.Perhaps this 'nasty attitude' explains why this site normally has 5 to 10 times as many guests online as members?Could it be that a whole lot of folks would like to join but then read a few trashed threads like this one and defer, afraid to join and post because they may get seriously criticized. Originally Posted by Scott YoungI really think you have a gift for documenting and presentation, but I do have one pertinent question:Have you learned to weld?You can't deteremine the quality and value of an electrode if you haven't mastered how to use it.
Reply:just keep doing what your doing Rick I for one enjoy your threads idealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:RickV, I certainly do not know you and I have no knowledge of anything you have done before and what you skills are. Please do not think I was taking anyone's word on your ability. I have no call to condemn you or your efforts to provide good solid technique. I didn't mean to imply that I did not want to see you post this data, I simply stated that I want to see data posted by someone who has knowledge of what they are doing so that I can feel confident that I can learn from the data. If you have the knowledge then, by all means, please continue this as I am extremely interested in this process.I have no developed skills so I cannot criticize yours.Last edited by MWalden; 06-08-2011 at 09:20 PM.
Reply:I for one will be following this thread with interest. I am a self-admitted hack of a welder. If there is an aluminum rod that is easier to use on a common homeowner grade arc welder then that would be good information for me to know. ( I would like to know what the 7014 idiot rod equivalent is for aluminum as that is the one that I need).I too often have to improvise with the less than perfect tool in order to get the job done.
Reply:I'm sure it would take more then a couple of pounds of any of this rod to get some good practice time under the hood and at its current cost it might be cheaper to pay someone else.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VI feel that we have seen this all too often on the site.Someone suggests something new and/or asks for help and what do they get... Pooped On!Folks, this is getting 'Old'. What's with the pugnacious attacking attitude?We dont need wolves lurking here for the sole purpose of tearing our throats out of sheep.I don't think it's helpful or in the spirit of what we are trying to do here on the WeldingWeb.Perhaps this 'nasty attitude' explains why this site normally has 5 to 10 times as many guests online as members?Could it be that a whole lot of folks would like to join but then read a few trashed threads like this one and defer, afraid to join and post because they may get seriously criticized."Have you learned to weld?" - I think that could be considered defamatory, abusive and harassing - all in violation of the Forum User Agreement. So now I am cast as a "misfit"? Defamatory and abusive = Read the Forum User Agreement!And look at the result of this abuse... Scott - even the nebies are believing you.So Scott, on the basis of what higher level of personal expertise do you question my competence? Are you a stick-welding expert... with what...hmmm, 1 thread showing a stick weld you made?My Thread here is about stick-welding aluminum.Not that I have to prove anything to anyone... but since you ask, here's some of my previously posted results - stick-welding aluminum.Now Scott I showed you my results, you show me yours!Hey Sundown, in respect to welding aluminum, yep stick welds are likely inferior to welds made with mig/tig. In your shoes, operating a commercial welding business, I'd feel the same way... stick is an inferior process to meet the demands of quality and safety-critical work that you do on a daily basis.Yet, many here don't have high-powered 200+ amp mig machines with spool guns/push/pull guns or $$$$ AC tig machines to do aluminum welding. We mere mortals don't possess the awesome arsenal of welding equipment that you do.At least... the last time I looked, I didn't have a Syncro 250 DX, Dynasty 200 DX, MM 251 w/30A SG or an XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima Pulser. What about the rest of us? What are our options?Many folks here are armed only with 'pop guns' to take on aluminum. We are not going to be welding aluminum for a living or on a daily basis - - just the occasional project for 'general maintenance and non-critical repair'.We humble folks might have a low-to-medium amperage transformer-based stick welder such as a Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 tombstone, a Miller Thunderbolt 225/150 AC/DC, a Hobart Stickmate 235AC/160DC, etc. or a low-to-medium amperage DC-Only inverter stick/tig welder such as a Lincoln Invertec V155, Miller Maxstar 150 or even one of Harbor Freight's 80, 130 or 165 amp units. Such welding equipment is generally sold mostly for home/farm 'maintenance & repair' applications... and that is exactly the application that aluminum-stick electrodes are sold for.Hi soutthpaw, in a way we are comparing 'apples and oranges': you ran beads on 1/4 inch flat stock and I ran fillet welds on 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 inch T welds. Im pretty certain that my T configuration sucks out more heat than your flat plate... and that makes a difference.In my tests, I noticed a difference with my machines and I reported that in my previous thread on 'Stick Welding Aluminum - My Experience' http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=45197 and also in my previous steel-related thread on 'Learning to Stick Weld' http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=45197.Also you mentioned that the machine you used for your aluminum trials was a Dialarc with a range of 16 - 200 amps. That's way more machine than my 140 amp max. DC transformer, cracker box (or my smaller 80-amp inverter). In my experience, the larger-amperage-capacity transformer-based stick-welding machines have a higher open-circuit voltage and a larger arc-stabilizer (inductor); both these features make stick welding better - the arc is smoother, more stable and the resulting weld beads more consistent.Preheat: On aluminum, I found preheat made a big difference.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=45197No preheat and my welds looked very cold. Too much preheat and the consumable-electrode metal ran everywhere.For me, 180F - 200F seemed to work well and that temperature stayed also within most code requirements.Note: In their product literature for Alloy 26, Harris recommends preheat on sections greater than 1/8 inch.On the other hand soutthpaw, it could well be that the 1/8 inch Bowmaweld (Manufacturer: Selectrode Industries, Inc) electrodes that you used are superior to the Hobart Aluminum 4043 electrodes that I used... and that is exactly the purpose of my proposed comparison. Do all aluminum stick electrodes produce equal results?I doubt it... I'm pretty certain they won't perform the same.Heck, the 'Lite' Blueshield electrode from Air Liquide claims "self-lifting slag" something the Hobart 4043 sure didn't do!Back to my original request.So, if you can help me, I'd sure appreciate it.If you know a supplier for some of the 'no souce' items listed above, let me know. If you know of other manufacturers and their suppliers, let me know who they are. If you have 5 or more aluminum electrodes that you can spare, send me a Private Message (PM) and we can discuss how best to get them to me.
Reply:Hey there soutthpaw... have a great trip to LA!Well things here are coming together. I have 1/8 inch electrodes branded as Hobart, Forney and Blueshield (Air Liquide). Coming are 3/32 inch electrodes branded as Blueshield and also Harris (via my nephew in Dallas, Tx).I'm waiting to hear if a US manufacturer of electrodes is willing to provide me some samples of their product in sizes of 1/8, 3/32... and 5/64! The small diameter 5/64 inch diameter electrodes with low-amperage & heat input may prove useful for welding thin 1/16 to 1/8 inch plates.Plus that US manufacturer claims, "exclusive self lifting slag".This 'new development' could be beneficial as my previous experience with the flux/slag on the Hobart electrodes was not fun - interrupted the arc, couldn't see the weld puddle and darn hard to remove.However, I wonder how ""exclusive" this self lifting slag is... as three brands of electrodes claim this too:1 - Forney DC Aluminarc - "exclusive self-lifting slag"2 - Air Liquide Blueshield MNR Lite - "with self-lifting slag"3 - Inweld A-3 Aluminum Electrode - "with exclusive self lifting slag"Who knows, perhaps this US electrode manufacturer produces all the above three brands?As for test pieces, I have a stacks of aluminum plates 1/16 and 1/8 inch thick, 6 inches long by 1.5 inch wide. Come Monday I head over to my metal supplier and hopefully purchase some suitable end of plate cut-offs in 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 inch thickness.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:The company Selectrode manufactures a small diameter 5/64 inch, aluminum stick welding electrode in a 5% silicon alloy called selectrode 1190.I'd like to try stick welding with these small diameter electrodes on thin 1/16 and 1/8 inch aluminum.Trouble is, the company hasn't responded to either of my two electronic inquiries, the first asking for free samples, the second asking for a retail source/brand-name for their 5/64 inch 1190 product. (Granted their business is selling large quanitity of electrodes to distributors... but it all starts/ends with the purchaser/rod-burner. Seems pointless to advertise a unique product that is not available to purchase. )Got any suggestion of how to get hold of 5/64 aluminum electrodes?(I couldn't find any other source on my Internet searches.)Anyone living in Pittsburgh (Aliquippa) Penn who could locally rattle the Selectrode cage?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:I keep meaning to ask if you are using a forhand (push) or backhand(pull) when running these rods. I did backhand on mine... also what rod movement are you trying? weave, whip etc??? In CA now. my Powcon should arrive this week, waiting for another person to get back to me about a different powcon needing repair for sale.. Being arc-products is an hour down the road, I figured a good time to find one was here in CA.I had mixed experience with the AL slag. some came off easy and other was a pain... Need to find a knotted 4 1/2 inch stainless wire brush for my grinder. should get a day this week I can go hit a couple of welding supplies in CA. needing some parts to build railing in my back yard anyway and the selection and pricing here in LA is way better than COLast edited by soutthpaw; 06-19-2011 at 04:39 PM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Rick - Not much progress so far with this experiment. Maybe step 1 should be to test the rods that are easily/readily available in the stores that are open both late evening hours and long hours on weekends. Unfortunattely, many of the welding suppliers are not open on weekends when many of us weekend warriors are likely to have to implement an emergency need for stick welding aluminum. I have one welding supplier that is open until Noon on Saturday's but I have no idea what they carry in regards to aluminum rod. My other welding supplier is closed Saturdays. Regardless both are more than 40 minutes from my home so it is not easy for me to get there during the week when I am working long hours. I truly like my one welding supplier, but it hard for me to get there so I frequently purchase where it is more convenient for me even though it usually costs slightly more at the chain stores. I can not speak for Canada, but in the United States area of SW Ohio this would pretty much limit the choices to:a) TSC (i.e. Tractor Supply Company) carries Hobart in the 1/2 lb or 1 lb service packs of aluminum rods in both 3/32 and 1/8 diameter.b) Menards carries US Forge brand welding rods and they offer an 1/8 diameter aluminum arc rod.c) Small independent Hardware stores seem to carry Forney brand, but Forney seems to be phasing out much of their line-up and carrying Hobart so may not be worth evaluating as old stock may simply be replaced with Hobart as it is sold off????d) NAPA auto parts. Not sure what they stock anymore, but they used to stock some welding supplies?e) Lowes and Home Depot stock some rods, but I have never seen any aluminum arc rods there.Anway - food for thought.Last edited by rankrank1; 06-19-2011 at 05:34 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI keep meaning to ask if you are using a forhand (push) or backhand(pull) when running these rods. I did backhand on mine... also what rod movement are you trying? weave, whip etc???
Reply:Rick - Sorry I did not mean to imply impatience as that was not my intention. I do realize the considerable expense involved although I had no idea that some of those excotic rods were quite that expensive. I was just throwing out my idea in hopes that it might streamline both your efforts and your costs.In the US we can get Messer as it is a US based company in Wisconsin but it is by mail order at least in my area. (I have never heard of Messier other than the Hockey player long since retired - LOL). FWIW: I think the US Forge rods are a division of the Messer corp. I think they are even made in the same factory, but I have no idea if the quality and ingredients are the same between brands. I do know the contact addresses are identical for both companys.My mistake on the 3/32 typo for Hobart. I got my websites confused when searching earlier today. Zena was the website that I saw them - they are the maker of the famous bolt on welder about the size of a vehicle alternator).http://www.zena.net/htdocs/welders/Rods/Aluminum.shtmlAlso found them herehttp://www.weldingrods.com/#!aluminumLast edited by rankrank1; 06-19-2011 at 10:49 PM.
Reply:Hey rankrank1... not too worry - no offence taken or meant to be given.I thought your suggestions were 'spot on' and useful - also gave me a chance to include the reasons why things are the way they are.Messier or Messer? Now you got me confused.I thought the 5 lb blue-plastic carton at my local Praxair said 'Messier', but it could have said 'Messer'. The Praxair dude consulted his price sheet and said it listed at over $70/lb but he would give me a 'special price' of $208.45 for the 5 lb carton. (That's $41.69/lb) Trouble was... I needed only a 1/2 lb for the test; I was not about to buy 5 lbs of an unknown product."Same Factory"... sounds like your Messer = US Forge. (US Forge is 1/8 inch diameter only.)I too am wondering just how many of these 'different' brand name electrodes I will be testing may have come out of the same factory.e.g. That exclusive 'self-lifting slag' doesn't appear all that exclusive. Zena - yeah, good suggestion!I had ZENA NO-Gas All Aluminum Arc Welding Rods (3/32 and 1/8 inch) on my original list but dropped them because... let's see... oh yeah while the price was good at $19.95 per 1/2 lb pack, there were shipping challenges to Canada:a) USPS (mail was not an option) - this is usually the cheapest method, avoids brokerage fees and if under $20 value comes in with no sales taxes. (Duty is zero.)b) $14.00 UPS shipping charges on a $20 item?... but what was not stated is the ~$30+ per order that UPS charges for cross-border brokerage fees.Free Trade is for Big Companies - Not for people!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-AcetRankrank1, I followed up on your suggestion to try NAPA Auto Parts. Good Call!The same 1/8 inch aluminum electrodes are available both sides of the border and for almost the same price ~$29/lb.My '1 lb' pack will be in tomorrow morning... just have to see if it really is 1 lb... that's like 36 rods.Great!... that adds a 5th rod to the test mix: Hobart, Forney, Blueshield, Harris and now FirePower (NAPA).Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:pssst,The "Firepower" brand is actually from Thermadyne.Same folks that 'own' Victor, Stoody, Tweco, Thermal Arc, and Thermal Dynamics.http://www.thermadyne.com/literature...r&categoryID=3 The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VRankrank1, I followed up on your suggestion to try NAPA Auto Parts. Good Call!The same 1/8 inch aluminum electrodes are available both sides of the border and for almost the same price ~$29/lb.My '1 lb' pack will be in tomorrow morning... just have to see if it really is 1 lb... that's like 36 rods.Great!... that adds a 5th rod to the test mix: Hobart, Forney, Blueshield, Harris and now FirePower (NAPA).
Reply:There is some US Forge and Forney Al rod at ace hardware outlethttp://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/pro...?SKU=998002745 1/2 lb for $9.99Indiana Oxygen is advertizing some on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/A3-1-8-PREMIUM-4...item20b6cd9d63Last edited by soutthpaw; 06-20-2011 at 05:07 PM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRisepssst, The "Firepower" brand is actually from Thermadyne.Same folks that 'own' Victor, Stoody, Tweco, Thermal Arc, and Thermal Dynamics.http://www.thermadyne.com/literature...r&categoryID=3
Reply:ok I ordered a box from Ace. $14 delivered. ill add those to the Bomaweld rods I am going to send you. Wanted to see if you could get them direct first. looks like a No.Friend of mine here in CA has a bunch of 1/4 inch AL scrap metal I just got to go dig it out from wherever its buried at his houseLast edited by soutthpaw; 06-20-2011 at 07:15 PM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick V...makes it tough for us want-to-be consumers|!
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawok I ordered a box from Ace. $14 delivered. ill add those to the Bomaweld rods I am going to send you. Wanted to see if you could get them direct first. looks like a No.Friend of mine here in CA has a bunch of 1/4 inch AL scrap metal I just got to go dig it out from wherever its buried at his house
Reply:According to the webpage it is US Forge. the Forney was like 3 rods for $10 heh... I will try and duplicate some of your tests specifically to look for differences across the machines and try and eliminate other variables. So will need to agree on some settings like rod angle and movement. how are you doing the pre-heat? I was thinking if you run the first bead on cold plate then use a IR thermometer to measure the adjacent area on the plate and wait for it to cool to specified temp and run the next bead.Do you happen to own and inductive DC ammeter that u can check the actual amp output of your welder. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...1&blockType=G1wouldn't have to do it with the aluminum rods. any steel rod should still show you exactly the output on each welder power setting? Oh your most recent fillet weld pics you posted looks much better. much more what I would expect for a result from these rods..... Also should make a list of what criteria the welds are being judged on. see if it ca be the same across the criteriasuch as SLAG REMOVAL = Good-Fair-Poor , Puddle control= Good-Fair-Poor, Penetration - Low, Med, deepLast edited by soutthpaw; 06-20-2011 at 10:19 PM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:soutthpaw... RE: According to the webpage it is US Forge.Good!RE: to look for differences across the machines and try and eliminate other variables.I plan to use only my simple transformer welder - max DC output is 140 ampsRE: to agree on some settings like rod angle and movement.Rod angle will likely be 0 to 10 degrees backhand; movement will be stringer and smooth as you can make it with a travel speed the 'feels' right.RE: how are you doing the pre-heat?Pretty much just as you said, "run the first bead on cold plate then use a IR thermometer to measure the adjacent area on the plate and wait for it to cool to specified temp (same as first one) and run the next bead." I just use a fan to speed the cooling process.On the 200 F preheat welds, I use a propane torch to get the whole coupon up to temperature, always checking with an IR gun, then get welding asap. I then wait for the coupon to cool - usually to room temp (fan assisted). I like to remove the flux and learn how I did and what I might change to improve. I then adjust (amps, angle, speed, etc.) for a better result. The I repeat the process to weld the other fillet on the T joint.RE: Do you happen to own and inductive DC ammeter that u can check the actual amp output of your welder.Yes but it's AC only. What I do instead is to tap into two widely spaced points (say 8 feet apart) on the ground cable and measure the DC voltage drop (millivolts). I calibrate using 10 amps flowing from a battery (stinger and ground cable shorted) and measure the voltage drop. This gives me cable resistance over 8 feet. With the ohms/foot, I can then adjust my tap points so that say a 1 millivolt drop = 1 amp. I use a digital camera in movie mode to record the multimeter display while I weld - this gives me a record of the actual welding current from start to end.RE: wouldn't have to do it with the aluminum rods. any steel rod should still show you exactly the output on each welder power setting?I don't think I will be able to calibrate my welder output on each welder power setting. My simple welder doesn't have 'switched' settings. I shift a lever (in front of an amperage scale) that moves an inductive core inside the transformer. Once that lever is moved, I doubt that I could return to the same amperage - even if the lever looked like it was in the same position. I'd likely be able to repeat a previously used setting within 10 amps or so - working over a range of say 70 to 140 amp range.RE: list of what criteria the welds are being judged on...such as SLAG REMOVAL = Good-Fair-Poor , Puddle control= Good-Fair-Poor, Penetration - Low, Med, deepSounds good and we need to expand that list... but, Yikes! ... in my experience with just the Hobart rod, I had a pretty wild ride!Slag Removal was non existent - scrub off with hot water when done. Poor!Puddle Control? I could never see the weld pudddle, just that puddle of fluid slag trying to interfere with my short arc! Poor!Penetration: To measure that requires a lot more work/time - cutting, polishing and etching. I might want do that on a few of the 1/4 and all the 1/2 inch fillet welds.One of the things folks will want to know is how easy (overall) was the rod to use. Was it hard to start, hard to maintain an arc, if so - what were the needed work arounds. How smooth did the rod run? How was the weld bead - smooth surface, cold or hot looking, etc.Southpaw, I'm hoping that just one of these rods will be an early stand out above the rest - and that will be that.(They can't all be as nasty as the Hobart... can they?) While we need a general plan of approach, as soon as 'the pedal meets the metal', don't be surprised if The Plan gets modified on the fly.e.g. 'Tuned in' amperage for a nice weld bead on a flat plate may need to be jacked up a few times to obtain a similar performance on the T joint - more heat sink!Anyway... this should be lot of fun!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:A couple of things...1 - MAXIMUM PREHEAT TEMPERATURE ?I used 180 F last time but would like to move to 200 F to get more fluidity in the weld.The most definitive references that I could find were:http://www.scribd.com/.../Anderson-G...es-90-and-9000 - Cached - SimilarFor ASME code requirements, the maximum temperature for aluminum is 250°F [121°C]. http://www.weldreality.com/aluminumalloys.htm 5XXX aluminum, max preheat / interpass temp 150F 65C to avoid cracks. With aluminum alloys with 3.5 - 5.5 Mg to avoid cracking don't preheat over 250F (120C). With aluminum alloys with 3.5 - 5.5 Mg to avoid cracking ensure max interpass temp is 300F 150C.WELDING 6061-T6, THINK HEAT REDUCTION:* The MAX preheat and "interpass temp" is 250F, do not weld on this part till the temp is below 200F2 - ELECTRODE/WELD JUDGING CRITERIAMaybe we need to develop a 'Score Card' - just like for golf ! Here's some of the items thought of so far, feel free to suggest others.Score Card - Circle the answerBASIC INFORMATIONWeld Type: Bead, Butt, FilletWeld Position: Bead, Butt = 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G - See Attached PictureWeld Position: Fillet = 1F, 2F, 3F, 4FRod Brand:Rod Descriptor:Rod Diameter: 5/64, 3/32, 1/8 inchMaterial Thickness: 1/16, 3/32, 1/8, 5/32, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2Welder Brand:Welder Descriptor:Welding Amperage:ELECTRODE PERFORMANCERatings: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (1 = poor, 5 = fair, 10 - outstanding)StartingRestartsArc stabilityArc Length: coating contact, short, medium, longWeld puddle controlGeneral useabilityGeneral ease of useAmperage rangeSLAG:fumesfluidityallows seeing weld pooldoes not interfere with arcdoes not force change of weld position (e.g. from 2F to 1F or 3F)ease of general removalease of residue removalWELDLooks: cold, OK, hotBead contour: concave, flat, convexWet in:Surface smoothness:General appearance:PenetrationOverall RatingRick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VRE: to look for differences across the machines and try and eliminate other variables.I plan to use only my simple transformer welder - max DC output is 140 amps
Reply:I would avoid the 1-10 scale. that was why i suggested the 3 step scale less confusion if more that 1 person is trying to evaluate their experiencethat weldrods description recommends 200-300F for thicker material preheat. also vertical (guess they mean perpendicular) rod angleLast edited by soutthpaw; 06-21-2011 at 10:38 AM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI would avoid the 1-10 scale. that was why i suggested the 3 step scale less confusion if more that 1 person is trying to evaluate their experience
Reply:NEWS FLASH... sample 5/64 inch diameter electrodes are on the way!Now I may have an appropriate weapon to attack thin 1/16 and 1/8 inch aluminum at just 55 amps... going to be interesting! Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Ok, I stopped into Praxair in Santa Clarita, CA today and they sell Messer brand Aluminum rod in 3/32 and 1/8 1/2 lb tubes for about $15. look at the Aluminator on messer welding's product page and see the data sheet for infohttp://www.messerwelding.com/here is one thing I had not seen before from their data sheet. for cleaning they recommend wire brush with a 10% sulfuric acid and hot water solution.. bet that smells wonderful. also they have thick material preheat at 400F If you want me to get a tube of each let me know, if you are happy with what u already have thats fine too. Praxair is pretty big chain so easy to fine in USA anyway.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Thanks soutthpaw but... am I gettting too many rods to test?Got 6 brands in 1/8 inch and 2 brands in 3/32 plus 1 brand in 5/64th - that's 9 different rods) = a heck of a lot of aluminum test pieces.The slag removal instructions sound similar to those of Hobart = not an advanced rod. PS: Sulphuric acid doesn't smell much.OK, if they got a 1/2 lb pack (~28 rods) of the alloy MG400 in 3/32 inch size, I'd reimburse you for that. At around $15, the test could benefit from one more 3/32 inch rod.Material preheat at 400F... ?Sadly, the recommended preheats from the rod brands seem to totally ignore and often far exceed the published code limits - e.g. ASME is usually 200 F.Want an exteme example?Heck - look at the typo error on the Harris site!Preheat to 5000 F !!! What the 'H' will be left - aluminum vapour? Off topic but... are you going to get a hands-on of that strange plasma welder?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Ok I will pick up a tube of the 3/32ths next time I get up there. I did not hear back via emails, Ill have to call them and see. I did just get a deal on a Lincoln LN-25 feeder though. Only has the Flux core gun so need a MIG for it.. May just resell for a profit who knows. Lots of deals here in CA so keeping my eye open. Oh My buddy is going to give me a couple of sheets of 1/4" aluminum plate "free". Will have to pick them up next month when I come back out with the truck and trailer. Doesn't look like u r going to get anything in the mail anytime soon as CanadaMail carriers are on strikeTiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:RE: Ok I will pick up a tube of the 3/32ths next time I get up there.GoodRE: I did just get a deal on a Lincoln LN-25 feeder though.... Lots of deals here in CA so keeping my eye open. I thought you were in LA to visit relatives RE: My buddy is going to give me a couple of sheets of 1/4" aluminum plate "free".Wow - thats worth some serious $$. Count yourself - real lucky!If I can get end-cut scaps, I pay about $3/lb - that works ok for small pieces (48 x 4 inch = $15). Thicker material like 1/2 inch in any size or larger 1/4 inch pieces are inventoried and sold at $6/lb.RE: Doesn't look like u r going to get anything in the mail anytime soon as CanadaMail carriers are on strikeDon't let that stop you mailing the stuff; rotating strikes then total lockout !! They been ordered to binding arbitration - be over very shortly!What about that trial of the flame plasma unit - not happening?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRisepssst,The "Firepower" brand is actually from Thermadyne.
Reply:Turned out that while Ace Hardware USA carries US Forge and Forney electrodes, ACE Hardware Canada only carries Forney - no US Forge.The sample of 5/64 inch diameter electrodes arrived via UPS today. Glad to have them for the test, just wish there were more than 8 electrodes... as 8 wee 5/64 rods are not going to last very long! Still at the price of $0 and free shipping, I can't complain too loud! With the Canadian Postal Strike over, the 3/32 inch Harrris electrodes from my nephew in Dallas should be arriving soon - hopefully this week.My pal Soutthpaw, in between buying up all sorts of 250+ amp welders from Los Angeles through Las Vegas to his home in Colorado , is in process of gathering 1/8 US Forge, 3/32 Messer and 1/8 Bowmaweld.I've got my aluminum material (1/16, 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 inch) cut up and ready to go - makes a fair pile!It's likely going to be about three weeks yet before we get to actual welding.In the meantime, if you have any suggestions, be glad to hear em... because they have proven helpful.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:bump?I did some welding with AL rods today with the new hobart stickmate ac/dc i got today. got alot of different rods and play with the AL rods its very different funny slag hard to see the puddle. rod burn FAST. just want an update!!2-Lincoln idealarc 250/250, lincoln 225 ac/dc welder, lincweld ac 180c, hobart handler 210, hobart stickmate lx 235/160, Hypertherm Powermax30local 26 I.B.E.W Electrician
Reply:Hi fhsfiremanco1,For an update see..."Comparison of Stick Electrodes for Arc Welding Aluminum - Part 1" at http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=58440Aluminum Weld Beads"Comparison of Stick Electrodes for Arc Welding Aluminum - Part 2" at...http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=58760Aluminum Fillet WeldsLast edited by Rick V; 11-13-2011 at 04:44 AM.Reason: Forgot there were two, not just one, thread on this subject.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet |
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