Bucket tooth repair

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This is a BIG bucket off of a CAT 350 Excavator. OK, it's not as big as the stuff Expat and a couple other guys here work on, but the biggest I will have.Anyway, my boss uses the machine, which belongs to his friend, and wants me to hard face the teeth and fill in the gap's between. I told him it looks like there is an overlay kit that would be available, and he said "no no no, just Nirod". Now I don't know anything about Nirod, but I figured he meant hardfacing. Obviously I need abrasion rod vs. impact. I will have to check on what his supplier stocks, then I will ask for opinions on it. I was thinking of filling in the corners with 7018. What about padding the tooth holder up a little before HF'ing it? Any certain patterns for the HF?"Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:I'm sure you will get many replies and there are 100's of articles written on what your trying to accomplish.An old timer summed it up for me once while I was repairing / hardfacing some heavy equipment.He explained ..... You want to make it to where your "wearin' dirt on dirt"...... Basically trap a layer of dirt or other material between your beads of hard facing. As the machine continues to dig any metal under the layer of dirt will not be exposed to the abrasive wear. If you simply cover the surface with hard face, the dirt will wear it every time it digs.Good luck with your project.HoboLincoln SA200's... at least 15 - 20. They come and go. Growing partial to the "Short Hoods" in my old age. Last count on Short Hoods was 13 in possession.
Reply:Looks like whoever did the shanks didn't do them right to begin with. Every set of shanks I've seen done was welded out all the way to the cutting edge and wrapped front to back. Looks like some one cut the shanks back into the cutting edge for some reason and only welded partway around the shank for some reason.I'd say that bucket needs a lot more than just a hard face applied to it. It's hard to tell not seeing it in person, but it looks like all the shanks ought to come off and a new front edge installed properly. If nothing else, the edge needs to get gouged out at the shanks and rewelded and probably heavily built up before you even think about some sort of overlay hardface.Note there are different hardface rods for differing applications, sand vs rocky dirt, vs clay etc. Some hard face patterns are designed to hold dirt and allow the dirt to take the wear and protect the underlying material. Other ones like for sand put a hard surface on that takes direct wear. You need to know what type of soil this gets used in.  A cross hatch pattern designed to hold dirt, will simply allow the open areas to wear if used in the wrong application..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:There's a "correct" way, and then there's the way my boss, who signs my paycheck every friday, wants it done!Actually, this machine has been moved to "light yard duty". I don't know why, it's in pretty good shape, and a 350 is a BIG machine for a small yard. Mainly, it works to loosen up the asphalt grinding pile and dirt and clay piles. I think it's digging days are over, at least as long as it's owner has it. He sells portable screens, so I don't think he uses it much. My boss uses it most of the time for the above. I was told this was one of my near future projects."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Looks like it is a case of what the BOSS wants rather than a correct  repair. Depends on amount of time and money he wants to spend.   First thing would be take the teeth off and turn them over and put them back on - they are installed upside down.   7018 would work for fixing the weak areas - i use 10018 or 11018 for all of our repairs of this type, but since its only trying to fix it for light duty work this will do.  Stoody makes some very good wire for Hardsurfacing , if a wire feed is available, this would be a somewhat easy bandage to apply. Looks like the original edge had wore down and someone cut peices and welded between the shanks - seems like between each is a radius cut and welded.  How well is the rest of the bucket - sides at the bottom weld, the bottom, etc. looks like its getting thin. A 350 class machine , if it still has some hydraulics to it will tear a wore bucket easily in tough work, but hopefully it will only be light for the rest of its days.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manThere's a "correct" way, and then there's the way my boss, who signs my paycheck every friday, wants it done!.
Reply:If the machine isnt digging anymore i doubt building it up with some 7018 welds will result in ANY issues anytime in the next 3-5 years... I would do a little hardfacing, leave some gaps for the dirt on dirt wear mentioned in earlier posts and just beef up the shank welds w/ 7018. ALSO - I have done a few buckets on CAT 300 series excavators (315s & 314s that we own) all of the pins that lock the teeth in have rubber grommets that will melt if you get the shanks hot. Whenever i work on buckets anywhere near the blade i always take the teef off...EDIT -- You may not want to even bother with hardface -- we have built weld on smaller buckets when we didnt have the $$ to go spend on hardface rod and its fine, just run cooler perkier welds and re weld em up in a year or whenever they need it...Last edited by Silverado; 07-16-2012 at 11:21 PM.Miller Dynasty 300 DXMiller CST280Miller Maxstar 150 STH
Reply:Ok this isn't rocket science   and the boss is gonna want as cheap as possible  Weld up any cracks with 7018 or 11018 which ever rod you want /  have /The boss gives you to use  Since it will be doing light duty in the gravel that is what is left when concrete is ground up there will be no sticky dirt to form a dirt wearing on dirt thing that's gonna happen ...well maybe if it's playing in the clay pile but that's not anything really abrasive like the ground concrete graveli would do a set of stringer beads between the teeth from the blade edge to the back of the teeth mounts and around the mount shanks  and some stringers up the cheek platesCheck the bottom of the bucket for wear points from the cutting edge to were the bucket curves in the back ( The flat part ) you may want to do a cross hatch pattern on that or some of it  or put wear pads or strips on it and hard face in between the wear pads or stripsThere are all kinds of wear metal available depending on how much the boss is willing to spend Hardox is great stuff but it costs moneyStoody 31 is a good general hard facing rod for doing this type of workMcKay makes Hardalloy 140 which is close to the same as the StoodyThese are the things i would recommend and i am sure others will have there own  Where is Expat when you need him Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Ok this isn't rocket science   and the boss is gonna want as cheap as possible  Weld up any cracks with 7018 or 11018 which ever rod you want /  have /The boss gives you to use  Since it will be doing light duty in the gravel that is what is left when concrete is ground up there will be no sticky dirt to form a dirt wearing on dirt thing that's gonna happen ...well maybe if it's playing in the clay pile but that's not anything really abrasive like the ground concrete graveli would do a set of stringer beads between the teeth from the blade edge to the back of the teeth mounts and around the mount shanks  and some stringers up the cheek platesCheck the bottom of the bucket for wear points from the cutting edge to were the bucket curves in the back ( The flat part ) you may want to do a cross hatch pattern on that or some of it  or put wear pads or strips on it and hard face in between the wear pads or stripsThere are all kinds of wear metal available depending on how much the boss is willing to spend Hardox is great stuff but it costs moneyStoody 31 is a good general hard facing rod for doing this type of workMcKay makes Hardalloy 140 which is close to the same as the StoodyThese are the things i would recommend and i am sure others will have there own  Where is Expat when you need him
Reply:I have not done any lately and all the photos of work i did before are mostly gone.Anything i had that was at my mothers place before she passed was gone through by my sister and her husband and anything they could not get money for was tossed in the garbage except for a few things that my brother managed to saveI will look in the stuff i have left and see if there are anyWhy do i need references are you offering me a job ?I maybe cheap but i'm not easyLast edited by killdozerd11; 07-16-2012 at 11:51 PM.Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:No real reason I have seen people do it alot off different ways. You seemed to know what you where talking about. I have never done it before and wouldn't mind getting into it.Miller Pro 300 SS w/ cat Miller Bobcat 250Miller Diversion 165 Miller 211Miller Xtreme 375Miller 12vsMiller Dynasty 200 DX Miller Passport Plus w/ Spool GunMiller 30a spoolmaticLincoln AC225 Buzz Box VictorMathey Dearman - H&M
Reply:Damm i was hoping for a job Mostly doing tractor work for people right nowI'm really surprised that Stick Man is even posting about doing something like this because he knows how to do this kind of stuffAnd what is posted above is just what i would do if it was me having to do this on the cheap , fast but effective side but i'm just a small time hackMost of the outfits i worked for have gone out of business If you want to learn the heavy equipment repair bis look up Expats  or Specopswelder work they are they guys who do the big stuffAnd there are a lot of others on here who are really good at what they do like Zap, BD1 , DSW , Ztfab  and others too numerous to mention all pro's at what they doi have not looked for any of those pics yet i am avoiding it because there are pictures of my daughter in there and i don't want to look at them maybe some time later i will but not now...i still can't cope with it so i avoid itBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWLooks like whoever did the shanks didn't do them right to begin with. Every set of shanks I've seen done was welded out all the way to the cutting edge and wrapped front to back. Looks like some one cut the shanks back into the cutting edge for some reason and only welded partway around the shank for some reason.I'd say that bucket needs a lot more than just a hard face applied to it. It's hard to tell not seeing it in person, but it looks like all the shanks ought to come off and a new front edge installed properly. If nothing else, the edge needs to get gouged out at the shanks and rewelded and probably heavily built up before you even think about some sort of overlay hardface.Note there are different hardface rods for differing applications, sand vs rocky dirt, vs clay etc. Some hard face patterns are designed to hold dirt and allow the dirt to take the wear and protect the underlying material. Other ones like for sand put a hard surface on that takes direct wear. You need to know what type of soil this gets used in.  A cross hatch pattern designed to hold dirt, will simply allow the open areas to wear if used in the wrong application.
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11There are all kinds of wear metal available depending on how much the boss is willing to spend Hardox is great stuff but it costs moneyStoody 31 is a good general hard facing rod for doing this type of workMcKay makes Hardalloy 140 which is close to the same as the Stoody
Reply:Thanks Down19992000. I'm betting your place knows what they are doing, so that way must work. I'll have to take a closer look at more buckets when I get a chance and see if I see any the way you guys do them. I've always seen buckets on loaders, excavators and backhoes, have those adapters fully welded. Usually if there's room for dirt to get between two surfaces, if acts like a wedge and tears things up, especially if you add freeze thaw into the mix..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThanks Down19992000. I'm betting your place knows what they are doing, so that way must work. I'll have to take a closer look at more buckets when I get a chance and see if I see any the way you guys do them. I've always seen buckets on loaders, excavators and backhoes, have those adapters fully welded. Usually if there's room for dirt to get between two surfaces, if acts like a wedge and tears things up, especially if you add freeze thaw into the mix.
Reply:Thanks down19992000, for the info. Is the issue because the top of the edge is beveled? And obviously the bottom is not."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Yes you are correct.
Reply:A bad habit we operators have is wedging the teeth into a crack the prying back and forth to open it bigger till something gives.My operator is hard on the equipment and lazy and he would rather be fishingI have not broken a tooth or the adapter but i have cracked the bucket in between themi always try to get results when running a machine but try not to break them as i'm the guy who has to fix it my welder / mechanic is incompetent he can fix it right but he has a limited budget and would rather go fishingAnd the boss is a self centered tight wad who would rather be fishingAnd that pretty describes my companyBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by down 19992000They were originally based in Ireland.Where are you based now?Last edited by Scott0303; 07-18-2012 at 07:45 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11A bad habit we operators have is wedging the teeth into a crack the prying back and forth to open it bigger till something gives.My operator is hard on the equipment and lazy and he would rather be fishingI have not broken a tooth or the adapter but i have cracked the bucket in between themi always try to get results when running a machine but try not to break them as i'm the guy who has to fix it my welder / mechanic is incompetent he can fix it right but he has a limited budget and would rather go fishingAnd the boss is a self centered tight wad who would rather be fishingAnd that pretty describes my company
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott0303Originally Posted by down 19992000They were originally based in Ireland.Where are you based now?
Reply:The bucket does need a little more attention than your probably going to get to give it. I would beef up the corners with some 7018 . fix all cracks around the adapters..... a few will show up when you start tearing into it. Then i would try to get the boss to fund a 2 or 4 inch by 1/2 piece of ar 500 to place about 2 inch back on the cutting edge between the adapters. beefing up the area and providing good abrasion resistance. then a simple 1 1/2 inch square hard face pattern for all the other areas that will wash out.
Reply:on a side note we also do not weld certain adapters all the way around do to causing excess stress. depends on the manufacturer specs hardness. Make sure if you use wire to fix it its not solid and has a diffusible hydrogen of less than 8 and all will be well.
Reply:Originally Posted by specopswelderMake sure if you use wire to fix it its not solid and has a diffusible hydrogen of less than 8 and all will be well.where i work at CAT we use a 70s wire on ever part of the buckets and it works a whole better than other types of wires we tried i build the exact type of bucket your reparing
Reply:I don't recommend using solid wire for the repair work as the steel is work hardened and has lots of contamination. pours full of soil chemicals depending on how it was used. It seems that it works fine for building a bucket out of virgin steel. Its slow for my taste.Dual shield wire has additives that are in  the flux to increase ductility.and allow it to pull out some of the contaminants. Also most people try to save money and just use co2 causing a brittle weld . It gets more noticeable on multi pass welds.Take into mind this is just my limited experience and there are many ways that work. I am always looking for better ways to get it done so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Cheers
Reply:I have to agree with specopswelder on this one. I don't think that ER70S-x is the best choice for repair. I have seen a bunch of parts at work that were repaired with it and there was either total failure of the repair or cracks propagating from the repaired areas. I hope this helps. I don't fix buckets but, I do work on large parts that are subjected to a lot of stress during normal use.
Reply:We use 1/16 metal core wire on our buckets up to 60 inches wide. Above that we go to 3/32 dual shield wire.