6011 or 7018???

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I am welding some bumpers and rock sliders onto the frame of my toyota pickup, the material I am using is 2"X4"X1/4" and also some 2"X3"X1/4".I welded all of it to the frame already with some 6011 and it seems pretty damn solid.I am new to stick welding and have done mig in the past and for some unknown reason 6011 just came naturally to me but trying to do vert up with 7018 just makes a mess.Every damn time I try 7018 vert up (1/8"&3/32") it flows out of the weld puddle and makes gobules and nasty lookin welds. I feel that the welds I have made with the 6011 are more than strong enough and the frame of this truck would fail before my bumpers will (or there welds) but I just want to see what you all think.I will continue practicing with vert up using the 7018 but for this project it seems as though the 6011 is strong enough.
Reply:Here is the good news, 6011 is plenty strong, but 7018 has better overall qualities.Here is the bad news, these are Famous Last Words... it seems pretty damn solid.I would have bolted it. Frame welding is serious business, you may introduce weaknesses without good solid technique and/or experience. Just the precaution you wanted to hear no doubt!If you feel confident of your work, post pictures. Oh, welcome to the machine!Last edited by tanglediver; 07-24-2009 at 11:05 PM.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Hello and welcome.If you want to learn, post up picts of the welds as well as the settings used (amps, Ac/Dc), material thickness, rod type and size etc. The more we know, the better. If necessary grab some scrap and run some practice/test pieces. With that we can see if you are too hot or cold for the material or rod, and if your technique is wrong. 6011 is run a bit difefrent than 7018 in technique.
Reply:Originally Posted by MyRedTombstoneI am new to stick welding and have done mig in the past and for some unknown reason 6011 just came naturally to me but trying to do vert up with 7018 just makes a mess.I will continue practicing with vert up using the 7018 but for this project it seems as though the 6011 is strong enough.
Reply:establish puddle, move, when red tail catches up to puddle, move again. You dont have to step out of the puddle very far. Pretend you have a marker and you are just painting a cap on with the 7018. Keep your arc consistent and tight with you rod angle pointing upward about 30 degrees or so.
Reply:im with tanglediver, i would have bolted it on. then you can always take it off in the future if need be.as far as vertical with 7018, just gotta practice.  pictures would help
Reply:I like Tanglediver's answer. 6011 is not the rod to use on frames, 7018 is. I would have went with the bolts, grade 5 or better, for bumpers or rock slider.
Reply:Hi sorry I will get some pics of the welds, I got pretty good laying a nice bead horizantally with the 7018, just cant do it vertically.I highly doubt that the bumpers or rock sliders will ever encounter more than 70,000psi of tension force, as I will be capping everything with the 7018 once I figure out how to weld vertically with it.It's too late to bolt it on now so I will just have to run with what I've got and BTW its a HUGE improvement over the way it was stock, if I ever need to remove it I have an O/A torch and a angle grinder.
Reply:I will get some better pics today, that one pic of the welded gusset was after I ground some of it off because I was not happy with it and I wanted to re weld it.Oh and my machine is AC ONLY, I tried 3/32" and 1/8" rods to no avail.I have a Lincoln Tombstone lolLast edited by MyRedTombstone; 07-25-2009 at 10:30 AM.
Reply:Just roll it over on it's side and weld flat!   I think there are a few parts missing from the "truck".  Certainly beats rolling under the truck to do this.
Reply:For many years, I couldn't figure out what was so great about 7018.   After all, 60,000 psi 6011 should be stronger than 36,000 psi mild steel, so why not use 6011 and call it good ?The catch is that 6011 welds tend to be brittle, and may crack easily, before the weaker but more ductile mild steel piece fails.  7018 is not only stronger than 6011, it is also tougher, and less likely to crack.   You want that toughness.It takes a while to learn to run 7018 (I'm still learning), and your AC limitation is not making it easier for you.   Use 6011 to tack, and then use 6011 to make a root pass.   Cap with 7018.   If the fit is good and if the metal is clean, sometimes you can skip the 6011 root and go directly to 7018.  There is special 7018 AC rod available, that is easier to strike and maintain an arc than regular 7018.   If you can find some, it might ease the learning process.   Thanks for posting the pictures.
Reply:I'm not trying to give you a hard time just my honest opinion, but covering with 7018 or not, I think you have pretty much ruined a frame.  By welding to the frame in the manner and design that you have you have severely stressed the frame, and I would be willing to bet that a cracked or broken frame will happen pretty soon right beside where you have tubing welded to the frame.  Also my bet is that with the thickness of the most frames you could probably twist it fairly easily without alot of pressure to the outside of your sliders.Last edited by Hammack_Welding; 07-25-2009 at 03:26 PM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:If you are not fully practiced and cannot successfully run a bead with 6011 do not use it.For your truck project, Mr. GTAW would be your best friend.Last edited by riceburner; 07-25-2009 at 03:33 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingI'm not trying to give you a hard time just my honest opinion, but covering with 7018 or not, I think you have pretty much ruined a frame.  By welding to the frame in the manner and design that you have you have severely stressed the frame, and I would be willing to bet that a cracked or broken frame will happen pretty soon right beside where you have tubing welded to the frame.  Also my bet is that with the thickness of the most frames you could probably twist it fairly easily without alot of pressure to the outside of your sliders.
Reply:mtngun, My post was not to beat up on him for what he had done.  Rather to explain that there are far better (proper) alternatives to his solution.  Where in his post did he say that this was an off-road vehicle?  If it is then have at it, but if it is going to be driven on the highway then others are can be put in danger and it's not just him that could get hurt.  Not saying that will happen, but it is a possibility.    What about the overhead welding under the tubes?  How did that turn out?  Another thing to consider is that 1/4" thick material is WAY overkill considering the frame is probably 1/8" at best.  The vibration of the sliders is more than likely gonna cause cracking from the weight that's sticking out to it.  All I am saying is that when doing something that you aren't 100% sure about, Especially when other people can get hurt by the work, it may be time to do some asking BEFORE you attempt it rather than after.  I own a welding business and at times there jobs that come in that I still make a call or do some research to find out if just what I am planning to do is the best way to go about doing it.  I hope everything turns out just like he wants it.  Just expressing a concern.Last edited by Hammack_Welding; 07-25-2009 at 05:42 PM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Mtngun, I have to agree with Hammack. I stopped looking at a couple of 4x4 sites because the shade tree welding was just too much for me.The "I know lots of guys who do it this way and don't have any major problems" of course this is when they are posting about how to fix cracks in the welds or showing things that broke off from lack of pennetration. The general concensus by many who don't know better is that it broke because they abused it, when in reality that just hastened the preexisting issues that would have caused a failure anyways.I can care less on the strictly off road stuff. As said have at it. But often this is on double duty daily drivers. Almost all frame vehicles built in the last 10 years have heat treated frames. How far back the treated frames go I'm not sure. They require special procedures to properly weld. Exact preheat and post heat specs and sometimes require more than 70 series wire/rod. As far as the OP, if it's an off road project, looks like fun. You've got way more patience than I would have with everything torn off the frame. I'm almost surprised that you aren't doing a whole tube frame at this point.
Reply:A full tubular frame is probably a little more expensive than most hobby off roaders are willing to pay.Miller Dynasty 300dxSpeedglas 9002XMiller Spectrum 375 XtremeLincoln PowerMig 255xtLincoln PowerMig 140cMilwuakee Portaband
Reply:best way to practice with 7018's is run em flat. i have an overhead hoist so i just pick things up and flip them around.my professor had a welding professor who did the same thing. he was building a 22' gooseneck hayhauler and all the welds looked amazing. well one night my professor walks into the shop and here is this guy standing on a ladder with a trailer hanging in the air welding on top so that all his welds were flat. and the best way is just practice. if you look for my bbq pit thread most of that is 7018 cause the weld looks better. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=29544Personally i wouldnt reccommend GTAW, especially if your having problems with 6011. too often do i hear about guys buying a tig machine before they even know how to use it, youll spend a fortune in consumables.best way to go in my opinion, is to go GMAW. i can teach a monkey to mig, and as long as your running hot enough, you can tell instantly the weld quality.I break things for a living...
Reply:Ok now let me ask you a quick question, when your runnin the 7018 90* straight up, are you supposed to do a whip motion with it cause there is no way in hell you could just drag it straight up, it will just drip so whats the deal here???
Reply:You do not use a whip motion with 7018. It is posible to run a straight bead vert, but it takes practice. I usually use a slight weave side to side and build a "shelf" for lack of a better term that you weld on top of as you move up.
Reply:Is the truck to be driven on the street, ever again? If so you might as well toss it and get another while you have all the parts off this one, this will save you the time of removing them and putting them on the new one when this cracks in half. Oh wait it will split in half on the trip out of town on the next three day weekend, rolling and taking out a family of 3 in the next lane. No worries you will survive but you wife won't, sorry. Silly move Mr. Tombstone.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardIs the truck to be driven on the street, ever again? If so you might as well toss it and get another while you have all the parts off this one, this will save you the time of removing them and putting them on the new one when this cracks in half. Oh wait it will split in half on the trip out of town on the next three day weekend, rolling and taking out a family of 3 in the next lane. No worries you will survive but you wife won't, sorry. Silly move Mr. Tombstone.
Reply:Originally Posted by smokin_dodgesuch harshness, ive seen much worse before driving down the road. my dads jeep had a cracked frame for years before we finally sold it to a used car guy. just cause he welded a little on the frame does not mean he's going to kill people or it will break or even the fact that something will happen at all. for all we know he could be running some decent beads they just look bad. you can only gauge so much on visual basis, the real way to see if he is doing something right is try some guided bends or some basic welding tests and cut them in half.Tombstone, i would see if you can get ahold of a mig rig and practice on it, if anything you can weld over your other welds with a mig, crank up the heat and youll probably be fine.now where is that pic somewhere on the forum of the guy who cut out a chunk of his frame for exhaust........that guy, id be worried about.
Reply:Welding on the frame can lead to cracking in the frame that initiates at stress risers associated with the weld.  A stress riser is any sharp notch, or sharp transition in section thickness, or sharp transition in material properties.  So welds that are not smooth, that have defects like undercut, lack of penetration, unfilled craters, etc, will tend to initiate a crack under the cyclical stresses of operating the vehicle.  The heat affected zone (HAZ) of a weld can have degraded properties compared to the unaffected base metal, such as reduced toughness and increased brittleness, that can act as an initiation site for cracking.
Reply:I agree, Piling on more weld on top of bad isn't gonna help anything.  I'm with Fatbastard.  He may be harsh, but what he said is possible, and I will be willing to bet that if the vehicle is used that given time the frame WILL crack.  Claim what you want, but a great deal can be determined from the visual aspect of a weld.  If it doesn't pass the visual inspection then there is no point in going to guided bends etc...  If you don;t believe that walk on a job site and lay down crappy looking welds and then try to explain to the inspector that the welds are actually good welds, they just look bad...  The OP doesn;t need to change machines or processes.  What he needs is time to actually learn the skill.  I see all to many times on this forum people giving advice of go to a mig machine everytime a bad stick weld is posted.  Forget the mig, and learn how to stick weld properly and you will be better off for it in the long run.  The question has still yet to be answered about the use of the vehicle.  Is this an offroad vehicle or a combined use vehicle?I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......Learn stick first then learn mig. Just cause someone can pull the triger don't mean you can mig weld
Reply:It is a combined use vehicle, as I said before I will also be using grade 8 bolts to bolt everything together so even if a weld were to crack the bolt will still be holding it there so no worrys.I know for a damn fact I got really good penetration with the 6011 so I wouldnt worry about that at all.I will try some more current with the 7018 and see if that works better though and get back to you guys with pics/results and I will post pics of said bolts (grade 8, 3/8" or 1/2")
Reply:Originally Posted by MyRedTombstoneIt is a combined use vehicle, as I said before I will also be using grade 8 bolts to bolt everything together so even if a weld were to crack the bolt will still be holding it there so no worrys.I know for a damn fact I got really good penetration with the 6011 so I wouldnt worry about that at all.I will try some more current with the 7018 and see if that works better though and get back to you guys with pics/results and I will post pics of said bolts (grade 8, 3/8" or 1/2")
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardIt is not the items you welded on that are of concern, it is the frame braking in half vertically adjacent to where you welded. Because of the weld you added to the truck frame. Basic rule of thumb no welding inside the suspension mounts.
Reply:High tensile steel frames are very susceptible to cracking. By improperly welding on them you run the risk of several things.Many are heat treated steel, by welding you destroy the heat treatment in the areas around the weld significantly weakening the frame.The steels are also very susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement and use of non  low hydrogen rods like 6010/11 will cause cracking issues.Often the base steel is significantly higher in base strength than 70,000 psi. Welds require special 80, 90, or 100+ series rods to match the base alloy. If not you dilute the alloy and weaken it.Improper pre and post heat will cause changes in the grain structure of the steel and again cause significant issues.Improper welds also lead to the formation of stress risers, slag inclusions and many other issues. All of which can cause failures.I know you don't want to here these comments from me, Hammack and others, but its the truth. Can you drive the truck the way you did it and have no problems? Possibly. But thats sort of like playing Russian Roulette when some one else loaded the gun. How many bullets are in the cylinder? One, three, all six or none? Every bump or pothole you hit, every curb you nip, any accident, and you spin the cylinder and pull the trigger gambling your life and others that it doesn't go off and hurt some one. You can go days or years with no problems, but that one time could be the last for some one.
Reply:Well i hate to tell you guys this but I guess your all in horrible danger, I am not the only guy that welds on his frame, just go on a forum like pirate4x4 or the like and see how many of those guys welded sliders or something similar onto there frames.This is a toyota frame, made in the late 80's and I can almost guarantee you that it is neither heat-treated nor made of anything other than mild steel. It is fully boxed and decently thick and you think toyota would waste time or money heat treating 556,000 truck frames that they make in a year?????Its not a medium or heavy duty truck nor was it designed to withstand the kind of loads that a heat treated frame would require.BTW there are at least 100 different parts on this frame that are welded on from the factory (automated MIG) and they would have all cracked by now if it was true that it was heat treated!!!There is a damn reason that everything on a HEAT TREATED class 8 truck frame is bolted or riveted and not welded!!I will drive my truck on the street and I will not worry about it.If it cracks, it cracks but its FULLY BOXED so even if it cracked where I welded it, it would have to crack through to the other side to break in half.
Reply:You don't get it.  It's not that you welded to the frame so much as HOW you welded to the frame.  If you had fabricated a frame and attached it properly, and not just weld it straight up the side of the frame there wouldn't be so much discussion on this.  The simple fact that there are tons of other guys who do this still doesn't make it the right way to do it.  This forum is full of professional weldors who know what they are doing and are not gonna look over a project that is done incorrectly and pat the person on the back saying good job.  We will call them like we see them.  People come here for advice, and to learn PROPER techniques of fabricating and welding, and they aren't gonna get that information if the pros don't point out what good AND bad, and why...  As i said before good luck with your project.  You'll need it.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWMtngun, I have to agree with Hammack. I stopped looking at a couple of 4x4 sites because the shade tree welding was just too much for me.The "I know lots of guys who do it this way and don't have any major problems" of course this is when they are posting about how to fix cracks in the welds or showing things that broke off from lack of penetration. The general consensus by many who don't know better is that it broke because they abused it, when in reality that just hastened the preexisting issues that would have caused a failure anyways.
Reply:Originally Posted by MyRedTombstoneWell i hate to tell you guys this but I guess your all in horrible danger, I am not the only guy that welds on his frame, just go on a forum like pirate4x4 or the like and see how many of those guys welded sliders or something similar onto there frames.This is a toyota frame, made in the late 80's and I can almost guarantee you that it is neither heat-treated nor made of anything other than mild steel. It is fully boxed and decently thick and you think toyota would waste time or money heat treating 556,000 truck frames that they make in a year?????Its not a medium or heavy duty truck nor was it designed to withstand the kind of loads that a heat treated frame would require.BTW there are at least 100 different parts on this frame that are welded on from the factory (automated MIG) and they would have all cracked by now if it was true that it was heat treated!!!There is a damn reason that everything on a HEAT TREATED class 8 truck frame is bolted or riveted and not welded!!I will drive my truck on the street and I will not worry about it.If it cracks, it cracks but its FULLY BOXED so even if it cracked where I welded it, it would have to crack through to the other side to break in half.
Reply:On 7018 vertical welds,  I use a slight up and down V motion with a radius in the puddle with about 30 degree angle on rod,  speed depending on size rods and metal=amps..Reheating metal can stress and crack if not relieved in the correct mannor.
Reply:Originally Posted by cmartman46On 7018 vertical welds,  I use a slight up and down V motion with a radius in the puddle with about 30 degree angle on rod,  speed depending on size rods and metal=amps..Reheating metal can stress and crack if not relieved in the correct mannor.
Reply:Originally Posted by MyRedTombstoneHi sorry I will get some pics of the welds, I got pretty good laying a nice bead horizantally with the 7018, just cant do it vertically.I highly doubt that the bumpers or rock sliders will ever encounter more than 70,000psi of tension force, as I will be capping everything with the 7018 once I figure out how to weld vertically with it.It's too late to bolt it on now so I will just have to run with what I've got and BTW its a HUGE improvement over the way it was stock, if I ever need to remove it I have an O/A torch and a angle grinder.
Reply:Wow,3MTA3 (aka JRW159) says something I agree with wholeheartedly.I better go out and check to see if the sun truly did come up in the east this AM.OP has gotten excellent advice from some "very" knowledgeable posters.  To choose to ignore it, says a lot for his intelligence (or lack thereof).Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I find consolation in the fact that grade 8 bolts will be used to back up the welds.  I use to work in a truck bed shop in Elk Grove, Tom's Hydraulic Supply (they call it something else now) 7018 is what they primarily used to weld the beds together,  but that was a long time ago. A strategically placed 1/4 20 will do miracles.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIWow,3MTA3 (aka JRW159) says something I agree with wholeheartedly.I better go out and check to see if the sun truly did come up in the east this AM.OP has gotten excellent advice from some "very" knowledgeable posters.  To choose to ignore it, says a lot for his intelligence (or lack thereof).
Reply:Originally Posted by riceburnerI find consolation in the fact that grade 8 bolts will be used to back up the welds.  I use to work in a truck bed shop in Elk Grove, Tom's Hydraulic Supply (they call it something else now) 7018 is what they primarily used to weld the beds together,  but that was a long time ago. A strategically placed 1/4 20 will do miracles.
Reply:Really long bolts.
Reply:Originally Posted by riceburnerReally long bolts.
Reply:I will be re-doing those welds and also re-enforcing the frame with aome 1/4" plate.This frame is not heat-treated and nothing I installed will in any way affect the way the truck is going to drive, nor become a hazard.I will re-weld with 6011 followed by 7018 and also use bolts as I said before.That close up pic sucks because I hadnt cleaned the weld and I had ground down a portion, I will get some better pics to show you guys.I am just trying to learn but at the same time I am not going to listen to some on here that tell me I have ruined my frame and that it is now somehow un-safe.It would be different if I had welded on the suspension mounting points but I didnt so stop treating this like a sky scraper that is being welded together and has to be 100% to the book, X-Ray quality welds.THIS IS NOT A NUCLEAR SUB!!!!!!!
Reply:You want to learn, but are still missing the point.Why are you going to weld a root with 6011 and then cap with 7018? For simplicity lets just say this is NOT welded to the frame, and its just a project. Nothing there warrants a multi pass weld. You are not trying to burn thru a ton of old crap that would require 6011. If you can't get the penetration on steel that thick with a single pass of 7018, multiple passes isn't going to help. More beads means more possibilities to trap slag and make a poorer weld. More bead than the base metal thickness is usually worthless and frequently detrimental. The more heat you pour into a joint, the more likely you are to have issues.Over all, your thought process is flawed. You are thinking like a hack that just takes irrelevant information from the internet and throws it together and thinks this is how I should do it. Wrong! Slapping more weld on a bad joint will not fix it. It needs to be completely cut out and redone. At some point the material becomes a loss due to poor work and needs to be just scrapped and the work started from scratch.Explain the thought process behind your decision to weld this joint the way you describe. I doubt you can. If you do we can explain exactly why you are incorrect in your thinking.Many have suggested ways to help you improve your welds, yet I don't see any practice pieces posted up for critique to see if you are learning and improving. Are you just going to go and learn on the same parts you already had issues with? Why are we even bothering to try and help you learn to do better if you won't take the time and even try to apply what we suggest?I know you won't do any of this. You have already decided that we don't know what we are talking about. You will do as you wish, and most likely, it won't have issues and you will feel that vindicates your position over ours. In the end, despite that you say you want to learn to improve, all you will do is reinforce the wrong thoughts. Hopefully in the future as you actually begin to learn, you will also understand how little you actually know and how bad this actually is. Until you do, you won't actually learn anything.Last edited by DSW; 07-29-2009 at 08:18 PM.
Reply:I am just trying to add some protection to the truck and learn a few things about ARC welding in the process, not trying to sound arrogant or anything.I havent had a chance to practice or work on the truck at all because I have been going to school and trying to fix my damn windstar.I will post up some pics when i grind off all the bad welds and re-weld it with the 7018.I will also be installing the 1/4" plate between the frame and the sliders as I said earlier as well as using bolts to act as a backup.I have used flux cored MIG as well as O/A welding for a long time now, just figured i would try Stick wile I was at it and I figured what better way to learn than building something.
Reply:Originally Posted by MyRedTombstoneI am just trying to add some protection to the truck and learn a few things about ARC welding in the process, not trying to sound arrogant or anything.I havent had a chance to practice or work on the truck at all because I have been going to school and trying to fix my damn windstar.I will post up some pics when i grind off all the bad welds and re-weld it with the 7018.I will also be installing the 1/4" plate between the frame and the sliders as I said earlier as well as using bolts to act as a backup.I have used flux cored MIG as well as O/A welding for a long time now, just figured i would try Stick wile I was at it and I figured what better way to learn than building something.
Reply:I used the 6011 for root pass due to its penetration, and the fact that it burns through paint, oil, ect.I was gonna cap it all with the 7018 for its high strength.You all say I shouldnt have welded these onto the frame, how would you all have gone about attaching these?? Bolts??Is the frame permantly damaged or what??
Reply:Try and think of how an i beam works with load. Now take and put a concentrated stress on the middle verticle part of the i that runs from top to bottom. It is adding a potential to crack there. Even grinding off the welds, there is still a potentially brittle spot where the weld penetrated into the factory frame portion and stressed it. This area could potentially crack and cause bad results. Welding on the frame with good technique is acceptable in the correct areas. So hopefully you can see why there is so much flack and that bolts will do nothing. Its not the fact that these could break off it is that the frame has had stress from weld in a highly loaded area.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Originally Posted by MyRedTombstoneI used the 6011 for root pass due to its penetration, and the fact that it burns through paint, oil, ect.I was gonna cap it all with the 7018 for its high strength.You all say I shouldnt have welded these onto the frame, how would you all have gone about attaching these?? Bolts??Is the frame permantly damaged or what??