Bale fork design help

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I've been planning to build a four spear bale fork with a standard quick disconnect. After reading the SAE and measuring every implement around I've come up with this design. The requirements thus far are simple, six feet wide, four spears 30" to 38" in length. I might add an upper socket for a large round bale spear but that's secondary.What is the ideal spacing of the spears? I think I need to move the outside spears closer to the outside. They are drawn with about 18" spacing. Originally I thought I'd hold them in a bit to make them less prone to snagging something... now I'm second guessing my thought process. Any other design changes you might suggest? Attached Images
Reply:What kind of bales are you looking to lift. I assume small squares?I've never done it with the small squares but seems they might drive you nuts trying to spear 4 tight baled spears. You'd push them around I think. The pickers I've seen for the small squares are hydraulic that use hooks from the top.Maybe large squares? If so, 2 spears are plenty. Actually just one with a smaller one to keep the bale from spinning. Large rounds? Depends how many you want to lift at once. If you're picking with bucket or 3 point. I think the spear on my round bale spear is somewhere around 42-48" long.Not sure how the mounting will be exactly but maybe could simplify the rack design since it is a captive load and won't really need a safety rack.Nice drawing and you've got a good start on design. Now just time for refinements.AlA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:For large squares and rounds I would either use one spear that's around 40" long and a couple smaller ones to stabilize or two of the longer ones spread about 24" apart.HH 187Miller Bluestar1EAHP AlphaTig 200X
Reply:I'd probably add some length on the back of the spikes and weld in some support to reduce the risk of ripping them out under load. And probably run a 38" thick plate on the front about 6" tall to add support to the spikes as well. But I heavily overdo things like this.
Reply:Originally Posted by SmokinPRanchWhat kind of bales are you looking to lift. I assume small squares?
Reply:I know it's more work, but other then that, why not clamp them instead of spear them?
Reply:Originally Posted by CrawfordI know it's more work, but other then that, why not clamp them instead of spear them?
Reply:in this area most of the bales a 3X4X8 for shipping and or 4x4 x 8 for local use the loaders  usually have 3 or 4 tines like in your design the triple tined machines usually have a 2.5" diameter tine   and a little smaller for for the other style the biggest thing is make sure the tines are long enough, and not to near the edge of the bale, few things are more anoying then sticking the bale and breaking the tie bands, or you use one of these at least if your picking out of the field http://www.milstak.com/Last edited by idacal; 03-26-2010 at 05:19 PM.Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:Why not just use forks?  Could be used for lots of things then in addition to the bales.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Forks will break bands and when you stack them up you can't back out from underneath them. The spear lets use use friction of the bale below to let you back out.
Reply:http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j0...Bale-Clamp.jpgwe had a truck locally here, was like a giant fork lift on the back of a single axle mack truck but instead of normal forks it had them inverted so they were 10" tall and  4 inches wide, but they would clamp the bottom bales, pick up a whole stack of bales, and load it onto a flat bed. think of the above picture, but on a larger scale.
Reply:Here are some options.http://www.zieglercat.com/compact/Li...ttachments.pdfMillermatic 252"Don't worry, he's got a welder, he can fix anything"
Reply:No doubt the hydraulic grippers would be nice. That will be the next project This is the latest design. Beefed up the overall design. Spread the spears out. Increased the spear length to 40".  Added a telescoping top rake,  down for single bale use and up when doing double bales. Attached Images
Reply:that looks like a design that a lot of the smaller dairies around here use, tall enough you can fork 2 bails at once. what size skidsteer are you putting it on? that will decide how many bails can actually be lifted at once, the smaller machines will only lift in the one ton rangeDo not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:Tearout isn't a problem when the bale is snug to the backboard.  I move 1200lb rounds with a single main spike with two small stabilizer spikes on the bottom of the backboard.I'm using 1 7/8 cold roll for my main long spike, and never had a problem (until I was boppin' thru the field, smoking a cig, looking around at the blue sky, and forgot the roll control on the tilt was in detent, buried the spike in the ground at around 4.5mph)Round bales will be around forever.  Not everyone can justify building hay barns.  Round bales weather very well.  Try leaving a square bale out in the weather for a few monthsThis year because mud prevented me from getting to my hay, I had to feed the large rounds (1200lbs +), and I'll never feed them again as long as I live.  Added strain on the front end, and added weight to bury the front end in the mud.I can't wait to get back to my little 5x5 rounds packed less than iron tight (around 700lbs or so).AND NET WRAP...........DON'T GET ME STARTED ON NET WRAP  I had to buy some netwrapped bales this year  They look real pretty sitting there, but ya ever tried getting the crappy net off when the hay's wet, or the hay's frozen over with iceI'd like to get ahold of the idiot that invented net wrap.  I can't see why anybody in their right mind would even use the crap"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:LIKE I NEED TO HANDLE HEAVIER BALESThese little 4x5's (the crappy net wrapped ones),, just about bury the tractor to the radiator in the mudAAAAARRRGH!!!!I'm ok now, i'm ok............... Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Hey Sam,  There isn't anything wrong with big bales.  You just need better ground!   I know exactly what you mean about the net.  I hate it also.  I tried to get our farmers to use string but they won't do it.
Reply:Originally Posted by idacalthat looks like a design that a lot of the smaller dairies around here use, tall enough you can fork 2 bails at once. what size skidsteer are you putting it on? that will decide how many bails can actually be lifted at once, the smaller machines will only lift in the one ton range
Reply:The support should go UNDER the bale not on top.  Gravity will want to rip the bale apart.   The "backing" should be under the spears not on top.  The top will serve no purpose once the bale is lifted off the ground.I built those in several configurations...mostly for round bales, but the principles are the same.  Unless you are still wanting to scoop them up, or trying to prevent fall back when tlted and raised, the top backing will not help much.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Sam, quite the mud pit you got goin on there!
Reply:hi, I would add additional sockets to it for sure. Mine has center socket on top long spear and two lower for short spears. Depending on loader height and bales on wagon with spear on top you can gain height just for loading and unloading. This may come in handy. As far as adding height to top i provided steel that i could bolt or pin on for inside barn stacking. The ridged top would limit stacking. more holes or sockets are always better.
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1hi, I would add additional sockets to it for sure. Mine has center socket on top long spear and two lower for short spears. Depending on loader height and bales on wagon with spear on top you can gain height just for loading and unloading. This may come in handy. As far as adding height to top i provided steel that i could bolt or pin on for inside barn stacking. The ridged top would limit stacking. more holes or sockets are always better.
Reply:Started building today. The design was done in Alibre Design using the sheet metal module. This is one of my first projects using the software. So far I like the results. I exported the parts as a dxf and then converted it to g-code. It still blows my mind that this plasma table can cut quarter plate at 130 ipm. In a matter of minutes I was headed to the press with my parts. Picture 1: Cut parts on the table.Picture 2: Parts after being bent. It took some creativity and blocking of the lower die on my northern press brake to get the clearance needed for the part with two bends.Picture 3 & 4: Parts tacked together.I'll need to order the square tube next week... I only had scraps laying around. Attached Images
Reply:Hey, this is coming along really nice!!!!!!!!!Only thing I'd give some second thought to are the pieces of flat running from the top of the quick attach to the upper piece of square tubing.  They really don' t do anything.  All your torque load is on the spikes attached to the bottom piece of tubing.  Forces when pushing are adequately handled by the tubing itself, and are adequately transfered to the quick attach via the tubing.  Unless you figure stuff might pop out of the gaps between the tubing?  I've never handled big squares, so I'm not sure whether they're subject to deformation if not fully supported when pushing."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I'm going to have to come to Morton to checkout your plasma setup. Ed (Napa) said it sounds like you have quite the machine shop going. Since the internet and computers are a fad , you must be opening a machine shop in the near future.Originally Posted by RaptorDunerI'm going to have to come to Morton to checkout your plasma setup. Ed (Napa) said it sounds like you have quite the machine shop going. Since the internet and computers are a fad , you must be opening a machine shop in the near future.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammHey, this is coming along really nice!!!!!!!!!Only thing I'd give some second thought to are the pieces of flat running from the top of the quick attach to the upper piece of square tubing.  They really don' t do anything.  All your torque load is on the spikes attached to the bottom piece of tubing.  Forces when pushing are adequately handled by the tubing itself, and are adequately transfered to the quick attach via the tubing.  Unless you figure stuff might pop out of the gaps between the tubing?  I've never handled big squares, so I'm not sure whether they're subject to deformation if not fully supported when pushing.
Reply:I mocked up one side to test the fit on the tractor tonight. Very happy with the fit. Ordered some of the steel today. If I have time I'll pick up the spears and sockets tomorrow from the jd dealer. Here are some photos: Attached Images
Reply:These are the four spears. I decided to try plasma cutting the holes in the square tube rather than drill them because it's fast. I wasn't sure how the holes would turn out so I cut a test. This is a picture of the test fit. I think it will work nicely. Finished the gcode tonight so when the steel arrives I'm ready to cut and assemble. Little progress everyday between paying work. Attached Images
Reply:The steel arrived late in the day. Just finished cutting the holes. It took less than a minute per side. Here are a couple more photos. Enjoy  Attached Images
Reply:In the end I went with 20" spacing on the spears. Worked out well mathematically.Now I need to decide... should I put the spears on the bottom like originally designed or do I put the spears on the top and gain some height advantage. I have seen these four spear models designed both ways. Here are some photos showing the two options.This is viewed from the back as if your seated on the tractor. Attached Images
Reply:If you put them on the bottom it makes it easier to use for other things like scooping things off the ground, on the other hand you will always be saying "if I only had a little more reach". Either way it looks like it's all coming together. Totally jealous of the plasma setup btw.
Reply:that is looking really goodmiller... 225g, s32p, 250x, 304, 12vs, MSW41     victor o/a thermal dynamics cutmaster 50 lenco panel spotter        hobart hf-boxG3 Farms.....raising cattle, hay, kids and hell, ...oh yeah I'm a fire sprinkler contractor by trade.
Reply:Can you get more sockets and do both?My name's not Jim....
Reply:Looks good.  I've been scoping out a similar project, but mine would be manure forks for a skid loader.  Same basic idea, just shorter tines and more of them.  Where those bale points actual Deere parts, or did they sell you the A&I parts?    https://www.allpartsstore.com/Search...elcSubsc=SBT39I'm considering using the "Cranked" points for mine so I can get the points dead flat on the floor and get under the manure.Any Chance you'd share the dimensions for the Universal attach?  Could save me (and probably some others) quite a bit of time measuring and searching.Last edited by Chuck; 04-01-2010 at 08:19 AM.Reason: added questionMiller 250x & Lincoln V205-TSmith Oxy-Prop torch
Reply:Maybe it's just me but it seems the design is stretching the limits of the material chosen for a 1200lb bail. But then again I over build everything.
Reply:i really have nothing to add in this thread but i was looking at some videos the other day that seem pertinent to this subject of hay baling here's a link to the vids...take a look down about half way and there are a couple of vids of auto loading bale handlers....quite ingenious if i say so myselfhttp://www.pronovost.qc.ca/videoa.html
Reply:Originally Posted by minnerMaybe it's just me but it seems the design is stretching the limits of the material chosen for a 1200lb bail. But then again I over build everything.
Reply:Originally Posted by ChuckLooks good.  I've been scoping out a similar project, but mine would be manure forks for a skid loader.  Same basic idea, just shorter tines and more of them.  Where those bale points actual Deere parts, or did they sell you the A&I parts?    https://www.allpartsstore.com/Search...elcSubsc=SBT39I'm considering using the "Cranked" points for mine so I can get the points dead flat on the floor and get under the manure.Any Chance you'd share the dimensions for the Universal attach?  Could save me (and probably some others) quite a bit of time measuring and searching.
Reply:The standard is SAE J2513. I found a drawing and the pdf on Tractorbynet.http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/b...ach-plate.htmlUsing this and the measurements from some implements I came up with my interpretation.
Reply:what loader is that?...kubota?...if so, looks like a 1353 or 1153...cast bosses on the ends...maybe 2253?...1301, 1601, 1251 still have solid arms with bosses welded in them...
Reply:Originally Posted by railin93what loader is that?...kubota?...if so, looks like a 1353 or 1153...cast bosses on the ends...maybe 2253?...1301, 1601, 1251 still have solid arms with bosses welded in them...
Reply:i hope i got good eyes...i build them all night...lol...things take forever to build too...hope you like it!...
Reply:I'm not sure how, or whether, the position of the spears would affect the leverage on the quick attach.  Be interesting to pop a brew, sit down, and noodle it out by looking at it for a six pack or so.If I have a bad bale (this applies to round bales only), I can't go low enough to adequately support it to keep it from falling apart.  IMHO, the lower the spears, the better off, but I don't know how squares handle when they pop the twine or bands.It looks like it's coming along very well.  Head and shoulders above the stuff I put out.  The plasma work makes it look "factory"."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIf I have a bad bale (this applies to round bales only), I can't go low enough to adequately support it to keep it from falling apart.  IMHO, the lower the spears, the better off, but I don't know how squares handle when they pop the twine or bands.It looks like it's coming along very well.  Head and shoulders above the stuff I put out.  The plasma work makes it look "factory".
Reply:Installed the spear sleeves. Tacked the main parts together including the upper support lip. Dry fit the spears and took some photos. Test fit it on the tractor. Still need to install the vertical pieces and weld everything up. It's almost ready to go to work. Attached Images
Reply:Very nice work. Almost too good to just stick bales with   I'd like to see it when you get put into operation also. Looks like it'll work great. And look great doing it.AlA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:Finished welding up the fork today. No time to paint it. Built it to do square bales but we had haylage to unload so... we put it to the test. Decided to try two bales at a time. Very fast. Attached Images
Reply:This was very impressive... or course this is why we break stuff  Attached Images
Reply:It turned out very welll.  I've heard the haylage is very heavy stuff.  Cow#### in a Baggie  Crap in a Wrap.  An old timer once told me that any hay that makes a turd is good hay.Whatever ya do..............DON'T PAINT IT BROWN  You'll never find it in all that mud"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/