Air cooled VS Water Cooled TIG torch performance

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Hi All,I used both types of torchs, air and water cooled.What I feel, working with AC current and high amperage, is that the air cooled torch waste more collets.I think this is because of the high temperature, so the collets twisted easier. Also, the cooper resistance increase with thw temperature, so at the cooper in the torch we lost a lot of power because of Watts= I x I x Resistance, this energy go away with the argon, cooling partially the body torch.With a water cooled torch. the temperatures are lower, so the Power lost is lower too.Please, give your opinions/experiences about thisMauricio
Reply:I've never had to replace a collet on the wp-20 on my sync 300 in ten years. I've replaced at least a dozen on the wp-17 on my maxstar 150.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Are you talking about therms lost?I agree, if you don't want to fry collets, you push a greater amount of cooling gas(argon) thru the power cable then torch than necessary. In turn you dilute the heated gas. With water cooled torches, you can use the minimum amount of gas necessary, but the water keeps the torch cool and collet from failing.My answer to collapsed collets as always is buy the tellurium alloyed copper collets. Let the aircooled torch run a bit hot and use the therms built up in the gas to assist in wetting the puddle. Too many people go cheap and buy the Chinese pure soft copper collets.Linde(Union Carbide), the company that pioneered the "Heliarc" process, configured their direction of water cooling power cable first with utility water, then  passed thru the torch head to cool it. The non power cable hose was designated as the return line, and was dumped into the sewer drain. This was an open system that ensured complete coverage of the electrified power cable. In an open system like that it was essential to flow power cable first to ensure no air pockets. These days most people use a closed system and the non power cable hose is favored by the manufacturers to deliver cold coolant to the torch head first, then that heated coolant then cools the power cable. Why? To cool the head.  Completely opposite of the "Open Loop Cooling" direction.Myself I have retained the Union Carbide logic. Pumping the coolant into the power cable first, warming the coolant over the power cable, ensuring no air pocket from unpressurized coolant and then cooling the torch head, and finally dumping into the radiator from the non coolant hose. This I believe delivers more  therms built  up in the torch, heating the gas to flow over  the puddle for a hotter weld. I believe also that heated gas is expanded gas and I use less. After doing this for forty years and not even knowing that the industry had adopted that change until a few years ago, I see no reason to for me to adopt the change myself. In conclusion I feel that power cable first coolant direction is more economical and efficient, I believe power cable failure is less in light that you have to work that way in an open loop cooing system anyways. Not to mention that aircooled torches flow cooling gas power cable first to also.Last edited by shovelon; 10-12-2012 at 11:59 AM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by mauricio_daniel_62Hi All,I used both types of torchs, air and water cooled.What I feel, working with AC current and high amperage, is that the air cooled torch waste more collets.I think this is because of the high temperature, so the collets twisted easier. Also, the cooper resistance increase with thw temperature, so at the cooper in the torch we lost a lot of power because of Watts= I x I x Resistance, this energy go away with the argon, cooling partially the body torch.With a water cooled torch. the temperatures are lower, so the Power lost is lower too.Please, give your opinions/experiences about this
Reply:Thanks for share your knowledge and experiences.I am planning to measure something at the water cooler, not available now: oulet temperature from pump, return temperature to tank, and flow . So, if I can have this measuremets I could know how much Power is lost.I feel surprise reading the cooler water units capacity: 10000 Btu/hour or more, that is really a lot....Thanks againBest RegardsMauricio
Reply:The flexible, braided copper conductor inside an aircooled torch is typically much thicker than a watercooled of similar amp capacity, probably mostly to keep it from overheating.  With a watercooled setup, the copper conductor can be made lighter weight and smaller, because the liquid coolant it is immersed in will keep it from overheating.  However assuming the coolant does not conduct electricity itself (and it all goes through the braided copper conductor), the aircooled would have lower resistance, for probably lower voltage drop for the same current through the same length cable, and a little better electrical efficiency.Argon is a very poor conductor of heat by the way, compared to other gasses.  Helium on the other hand, conducts heat away like crazy.
Reply:Dear Jareku,I think the same thing regarding the cable resistance.What do you think that about the cooper at the torch, between the attached cable and the tungsten?Best RegardsMauricio
Reply:Originally Posted by mauricio_daniel_62Thanks for share your knowledge and experiences.I am planning to measure something at the water cooler, not available now: oulet temperature from pump, return temperature to tank, and flow . So, if I can have this measuremets I could know how much Power is lost.I feel surprise reading the cooler water units capacity: 10000 Btu/hour or more, that is really a lot....Thanks againBest Regards
Reply:Originally Posted by slotardThat is a lot of cooling capacity, close to 3kW. Sounds to me like overkill for just about any TIG.
Reply:So why are you so worried about a small inefficiency of the torch's power lead?Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Maybe the title of this post was inadequate. Sorry about my english.I am not worried about the small inefficiency of the torch's power lead.What I would like to know, if I am correct or nor, is that a lot of power is lost mostly at the body torch which finally is traduced in power lots from the power supply. Also all about the consumables using air cooled torchsAgain, sorry about my englishBest RegardsMauricio
Reply:On a CC machine, when there's more resistance the machine will just up the voltage to get the same current to flow.  The machine will be putting out more power, but you'll get the same power in the arc. More power will be wasted in the lead/torch, and the machine will have to work a little harder.  I doubt there's enough difference in resistances between an air and water cooled torch to matter.  I don't notice much difference in performance by adding 50 ft of steel in my ground path.  That's going to be way more resistance change than the little difference in copper between the torches.  I can't tell any difference in welds between an air and water cooled torch on my machine.  I've got way more variability in how much I push the pedal.The water cooled torch gains the advantages of longer duty cycle and a smaller torch.  The disadvantage is a higher cost and more things to break (cooler pump, fan, etc)The air cooled torch gains you cheaper cost, and easier portability.  The disadvantage is a lower duty cycles and a bulkier torch.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAThe air cooled torch gains you cheaper cost, and easier portability.  The disadvantage is a lower duty cycles and a bulkier torch.
Reply:I recently installed a CK 20 torch and the new little rinky dink #1 cooler on my Dynasty 200DX.I was using a #26 torch before. The difference is noticable to ME.The smaller torch feels much better IMO.With the #26, if you use the standard size collet it will last longer. Switch to the stubby setup and you will burn up torches.With the #20 you use stubby all the time. Bottom line is if you can afford it......go with the water cooled. Unless you have to go mobile with it. Then air cooled starts looking much better.My mobile biz has gotten to be shop only these days. I still have the air setup for the little Dynasty, but the water is much nicer in my opinion....YMMVMiller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Hi FusionKing,Thanks for your comments.Do your Dynasty 200DX has Fan As Needed?If so, does the fans start less frequent with the water cooled torch, as I suppose?Best regardsMauricio
Reply:Originally Posted by FusionKingIBottom line is if you can afford it......go with the water cooled. Unless you have to go mobile with it. Then air cooled starts looking much better.
Reply:Originally Posted by mauricio_daniel_62Hi FusionKing,Thanks for your comments.Do your Dynasty 200DX has Fan As Needed?If so, does the fans start less frequent with the water cooled torch, as I suppose?Best regards
Reply:[QUOTE=FusionKing;1693511]I don't think the fan goes off once you strike an arc, or it at least stays on a good while. But to tell you the truth, I can't remember, this is my 3rd 200 Dynasty and every one has been somewhat different. With the noise the new cooler fan makes, no one could here the power source's anywayThank you very much for you comments.Best RegardsMauricio
Reply:i think the water cooled torch is better that the air cooled torch, Because it is convenient and cheap.dental supplies
Reply:I am not sure I fully u Der stand the question,  but I became interested in this when putting together a pump like MikeGyver. Basically I wanted to know how much energy from the welder is transferred to the torch body,  so I could design a minimalist cooling system,  ideally much quieter than the commercial ones. In short,  between 5 and 10% of the total energy is transferred to the torch.  combine this with the down time from duty cycle restrictions and you can see that the amount of cooling capacity provided by a commercial cooler is very excessive for all but the most demanding applications. I posted research reference links in the aluminum cart build thread by MikeGyver,  if anyone cares. Good Welding,  Karl