Welded aluminum skiff build

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WWeb doesn't seem to have many metal boat builders, being mostly an automotive oriented group.  [So] This may not be of much interest to the wheeled vehicle welders here, but it is welded; so I figured I'd post a few images of this project.This is a look at the steps to build a welded skiff in aluminum alloy, for those who are interested in this type of welding.Plans and designs are not in the scope of this post/thread since they involve details way past welding concerns.  I draw them for myself, I don't sell them, I'm not a full time marine designer, and I only build my own designs, and I don't build fulltime or have a crew of workers.  The owner guided my drawings to get this design, the elements are his, not mine.  The boat is 25' and a few inches LOA, is 7'0" wide at the outer chine, 7'4" on deck and 13 degrees deadrise at the transom and 50some in the forefoot of the bow.The image here (as most of my illustrations) is color separated to identify parts into pieces and layers not a suggested color scheme. the stern was originally to have a full width bracket for the outboard engine(s) but was later changed to fill in the two outboard upper volumes with lockers and a nearly full width transom at the stern rake angle.The cabin was originally to be open back, and the tank was originally larger than it ended being built.  This image shows the cabin forms and lines as drawn, and the actual plans are not shown.I used Delftship Pro to draw the boat, then I exported to various other CAD software, Rhino especially to work with various output files' shapes or outlines to determine panel curves' exact edge contours.  I could not afford to generate full 'cut files' for a CNC service so the entire boat was laid out, and faired and cut by hand then edge to edge tacked and finally welded. The boat is entirely of 5086 H-116 welded with 5356 alloy wires.  All material, except the deck, was mechanically descaled in a drum sander using a scotchbrite-like abrasive and the cabin was etched to a white metal finish after construction.  The hull is 1/4" bottom, chine, and lower topsides; deck is 0.160", topsides the same and the guard deck/sheer clamp is 0.187" as are the bulkheads.  Almost all the longitudinals are 1/4" 5086 but there are some 6061-T6 extrusions below deck as hull longs.All MIG by a Lincoln Power MIG 350MP using the Python but some cabin welds are done by the MK Cobramatic SX gun the runs smaller diameter wire.  Almost all welding with MIG was done in "power mode" #40.  TIG was done with OTC 300A TIG-gun powered by the Miller Dynasty 300DX. Most weld modes were 126 PPS, 250 Hz, 68-74 Bal.  This power supply is mostly pegged to 300A Main- and the roller knob pot on the torch controlled amperage; so I can't give any decent amperage numbers since I was under the hood.  (and I can't buy a WiFi heads-up display hood with comm. to the power supply: yet.)I built this skiff on a rotisserie originally conceived  by Jack Davis, during an online discussion, and I built her from the decks down first, the topsides were added later. If you've built before you will understand how much more access is implied by this construction sequence.here is an image of where the thread is headed cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:because of rental shop space and timing, I built the cabin first using the help of some great guys in the shop where I rented at the time.tacking up the lower panels and the forward rolled dodger which is tank and bulkhead too.then the roof panel clamped here to scribe accurately before cutting.Adding a bulkhead, not originally planned, to help frame up the cabin sides upper window band.  Door coaming is rolled 2"x1/4" 6061 rolled on the 555 Greenlee with add on die.once the two sides and after bulkhead are on, the helm/dash area was installed to allow welding access behind the forward windscreens.finally windscreen panels are installed and the forward/leading edges all finished in pipe segments to fair the flanges and make the shapes relatively smooth.the brow shape was added by using long cut shapes instead of flat bars for the two side profiles and the forward visor portion as well.more cabin coming next:Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:wow! that's a great lookin' boatHobart EZ-Tig newbie.
Reply:To get some weight forward, the boat is stern heavy like most outboard boats are, the fuel is located just forward the cabin bulkhead.Tank/dodger is formed of three rolls that join in close tangents so the piece is clean. standing vertically the three cylinders are clear. This piece will incline aft (left in the photo) in the boat.Baffles welded to the bottom and a single transverse stiffener will hold the tank shape and stop fuel movement. tank bottom has a water sump to allow collection of free water so it can be pumped out separately to the engine fuel draw. This isn't done in all marine tanks but was done here because the owner's maintenance ideas called for extreme fuel care.  (getting a few hours into the Gulf of Alaska and learning your main fuel or filter is contaminated and the engine won't run; will put a damper your day)Tank will fit into the cabin when complete. The tank is 1/8" 5086 H-112 alloy as are the top bottom and baffles. There is doubler on the top around the fill and the fill is recessed into the cabin dodger to get the fill out of the deck walkway.Fill fitting recessed into the upper dodger rolled sheet.more cabin next:Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Nice!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:I would so like to see that in my rear view! Very nice!
Reply:As this was not NC cut there was time to layout and cut the hull curves into the sheet material.The bottom, chine plates and lower topsides were laid down on a scaled grid and battened fair with extrusions this work is corrected by eye.  Not hard to do, but some care needs to be taken to clean up the design and Rhino or Acad output to insure there are fair curves.Once the layout is done the pieces are cut, and the edges belt sanded if needed and Vixen filed if not.Once they're fair or clean along the edges, then they can be tacked to the shapes of the hull.In this poor contrast image the keel is tacked between the two bottom halves and the entire process of pulling the bottom up is about to begin.with enough clamps/nylon truck straps and time even a 1/4" bottom can be made to pull up and tack fair.using the Davis Jig to roll the boat over was key to me since I can only crawl on the floor for so much welding these days.Here the second pass of keel weld is being added while the sheets are still being pulled up, this area is under quite a bit of stress then the weld not only relieves some of the stress it insure the seam does not 'open up' from the sheet edge stresses induced by pulling this shape together.Keel is three piece joint of the vertical keel bar backing the two side panels of 1/4" and the weld is TIG in three passes. The first pass is a double key hole weld where the two sides to the outer edges of the keel are carried in one 'root' pass. (I cannot do the double keyhole weld done here without a TIG gun as the amount of filler need to keep 300 amps running in this area is too high for me to feed evenly enough.) Eventually a filler pass (shown) and a cover (not shown) were added to bring this joint to flush level of the two bottom panel edges.After the bottom inner panels were pulled up, the chine flat and lower topsides were added to make the 'hollow surf board' hull that would be completed before the upper topsides were added.Weld positioning in this scale of work (for the over 60 guys at least) is worth its weight and the effort to make the fixture returns when you can weld decently instead of being unhappy because the body contortion is too hard to hold long enough to get decent beads.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:That build is frigin outstanding!
Reply:Awesome build thanks for posting nice to see something hand built.Miller Dailarc HF 250 Hobart 140
Reply:So with the bottom tacked up we framed the interior, this can be done in many ways, so I'm not addressing the design just showing what got done.the Davis Jig gave me position to start some MIG on the outside fillets, balanced by the same on the inside as the framing was added.A bulkhead was added at 1/3 the waterline to allow a framing transition; longs on the buttock lines aft and straight radials on the surface of the bow cone forward.These are all straight edges aligned along the cone's surface so they take little time to fit and install. main longs all in, the fuel line, controls conduits are being installed and the deck framing will cover these pipes so they are mounted to the hull with welded tabs to the longs.Deck beams going into notches along the tops of the full height longs in preparation for the deck.  Where ever the pattern of deck beams cross a long 9" x 12"grid AND the long was not full height from keel to deck that intersection has a welded leg of 2"x2"x3/16" angle joining the long to the deck angle of the same material.All the work here was MIG but the welds were all de-sooted/brushed/wiped prior to closing the deck up to minimize the junk below decks.decking was put on in sections transversely so the seams would run over the deck beams making the welds simpler. The sheets were to large for the drum sander so they were hand buffed underneath before installing and later on the deck surface.The keyholes were two holes 5/8" dia about one diameter apart then a router with a bevel bit was used to open the keyhole weld sides. This created a slightly conic wall so the hifreq didn't spen all day scarring the sides of the welds and leave them totally 'salt and pepper' topped.   It was some effort to bevel the keyholes but was worth the improved weld quality, all keyholes were TIGged.Temporary stiffener along the near side just below the deck to make the two edges easier to hold to a clean line for tacking.Deck edge to lower topsides weld was done as an outside corner with a 5/32" pure tunsten and the settings given above.  Oversized (to me) gas lens with a  #10 nozzle and 18-22 ft.^3/hr. flow welds were in about 8" lengths and the ~50' of weld took about an hour of welding between the deck fitting work and tacking the next sheet forward.This allowed a heat controlled keyhole where the high travel and filler rates could be dialed in to allow a constant keyhole between the 1/4" vertical edge and the 0.160" edge of the deck.The deck was completed so the boat was just a surf board and there was no crawling in and out. I'm just not able to do that kind of work very well now and welding below my knees in the bilge while kneeling on deck beams just does not give me a weld that I can live with. So, the Davis Jig and the build sequence are what allowed me to do this work, not that others don't do much better- they do; but this is how I was able to do a skiff with the carcass at hand.Cheers,Kevin MorinLast edited by Kevin Morin; 05-29-2012 at 11:36 PM.Reason: typo's
Reply:The topsides shapes were already cut so if a few temporary frames were set up at the appropriate angles to horizontal then the sides could be tacked to the deck/lower topside seam edge.That weld, shown above was sanded into a bevel. It would be welded over, outside and inside both, and was a decent full fusion outside corner with a good visible key hole the entire weld. So sanding it top and bottom then insuring a uniform 45 chamfer to the outer edge made a should for the topsides to sit on, and created an outside fillet at the bottom of the topsides where a weld could go flush between the bottom of the upper topsides and the previous weld -that had been chamfered to allow this second TIG weld. a plumb bob and a few struts and the temp frames were up so the starboard side could be tacked on.I rented a crew from another company and they held and positioned the pieces while I MIG tacked inside.once this side was up the process was repeated on the port side and then the seam welded fully outside.not the best photography but the upper weld in this shot is the outside groove TIG fillet that attaches the upper topsides to the deck seam at the lower topsides.once the sides were on the sheer clamp or guard deck needs to fair the topsides upper edge (sheer) so the hull is formed fair. depending on the amount of curvature  of the edges of the bow cone and the plan view of the sheer along the top edge of the topsides; it takes some serious clamping to get these two shapes to meet.They meet in an inside edge to edge fit that is critical to hold aligned exactly when tacking or the resulting 'wrinkle's or irregularities will show up in the finished hull form.Its not a complicated skill, but it does require the patience to get the entire joint clean and aligned ahead of the tacks which are done about 1" to 1-1/2" apart. Making a little progress moving aft along the sheer tacking on the sheer clamp plate of 3/16".Wood is used for temporary supports and to hold the sheer clamp plate flat before its tacked on.Next finish the tack up and work on the upper transom.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:How long did this take you? Originally Posted by zapsterYou wanted to be the welder....zap
Reply:Okay. That is the project of the month. Great job and nice postings as well. Explains the process well from a quick overview.
Reply:Awesome work as always! Thanks for all the photos.
Reply:Thanks to all for the kind comments, the skiff was built over the last year, in three rental shops; taking more than a few two month breaks and working both with a helper   or a small crew and alone.I'll plunge ahead with some images.the sheer clamp plate ends in to large 'Ls' at the stern over the lockers. These flank the engine splash well/mount area which is just sheeted in not framed.Once the sheer clamp/guard deck is tacked the hull's top shape is formed and a 1/2 pipe extrusion is was added to the sheer.these pieces are all straight and simply have a gapped miter fit at the corners where each adjoining piece fits to a C of 1/2 so that the welded extrusion is not the main support, and the 1/2" works to back up the corners too.these corners are mitered- but rounded a bit to keep them from being sharp while still not use a butt weld fitting to attain a pipe radius as I've done on net skiffs in the past.top view of this corner showing the weld groove formed by the belt sanded previous bead's chamfer and the 1/2 pipe (http://www.alaskancopper.com/pdf/al/marine.pdf   third item down) A similar seam cross section is used to add the long runs (25' extrusions) of the pipe to the forward part of the hull at the sheer.  Not too clear a focus here, but we're looking aft as the sheer weld is put in, sanded off and faired to leave the final form of this seam.the reason this weld is removed is to make the shape fo the pipe continuous to the sheer clamp/guard deck so that it is clear for working lines and has a more sculpted final finish.The weld is put down in 3" strips with TIG at 300 amps and the 'sag' of the puddle insures the penetration is enough so when the top is sanded flat that 80-95% of the 'iceberg' is still below the surface fusing the three pieces; topsides top edge of 0.160"; the top inner edge of the schedule 40 1/2 (2") pipe extrusion and the outer edge of the sheer clamp, 0.187" all together into a decent joint.I've done this before and not had any problems so I did it here as well.A 4" x 2" x 1/4" angle was used externally to create a spray rail and to add a longitudinal stiffener half way up the topsides panel. The outer edge of the angle was bull nosed using a 3hp plunge router and a 1/2" round over bit to take away the edge and give the piece a little more attractive line.Here is it being tacked on by using a shop made tool that reached over the inside of the sheer clamp, and then has an 'arm' to cup the angle and finally this 2" pipe leg was pulled into the hull by a nylon strap at the bottom.A couple of 2x6's were jammed inside the hull to push the sides out against this compression force so the angle could be tacked fair with a bulge or convex section to the side.Small, not readily visible, layout lines guide the tack up which was done with the TIG torch to make the tacks very small and yet deeply penetrating the natural gap at the top of the extrusion to side joint.Once the spray rail and rub rails are installed there followed a few days of TIG welding to fill all the seams top and bottom in the rub rail, continuously, and then stitch on the spray rails.More to comeCheersKevin MorinCheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Awesome Kevin!HammerFile Big Hammer------------------------------Here, let me Google that for you...
Reply:As always Kevin, you do extraordinary work. Thanks very much for doing this thread.Newer welders should note the extreme care taken in fit and finish at every stage of this project. Nothing is " close enough", and it's all well though out in advance before the welds are started. This is often what separates a true craftsman from the average worker. My guess is Kevin has more many hours in prep and fit up than he does in the actual welds themselves. Also note the large numbers of tacks. Not one or two and then "go for it" with the welder. I'm betting even with all the tacks, he still jumped around here and there to keep his heat under control and prevent warpage..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:lamename, DSW,thanks for the kind remarks.Yes cutting and fitting is critical for good welds.  I'd estimate in most welded boat building there are 10:1 or 15:1 prep to weld ratio.   If you do small detail like the helm, lockers, rail corners, then that ratio may go up to 20:1 since many of the welds are very short but the shaping is involved.This ratio is reduced when the profiles/outlines/part cuts are made using an NC system but there are two fairly large costs associated.First cost is the time to create cut files from a PC designed boat. The effort to do this is three fold; one is the cost of the software that will do this process; two is the effort to learn to use that software; third is the time to use the software to generate a set of cut files for a one off skiff build.Full time design offices have already paid the cost to own and learn the software, and those costs are reflected in the cost to produce these cut files.  The costs are often much more than the labor to layout and cut the shapes by hand, depending on what you're paying for that factor in the boat.If the boat is going to be built more than once then the cut files' eventual savings in labor is returned immediately.  The Second cost factor is the cutting service itself.  Once the NC files are made, and you don't have a 20'-30' bed NC table, then you'd have to hire the work done.  This has a few factors to consider as well. One factor in the cutting costs is the intermediate transport of metal.  If you buy from a supplier, then there is transport cost, but when you use an NC service this cost goes up quiet a bit.  The original shipping is not to you- its to the NC shop- then back to you. There are two more legs to the journey and several handling events.Another cost is the handling in different remote venues.  For example, places like Seattle have trucking fees for local deliveries that are pretty expensive for a haul from one warehouse to another- they're called cartage fees.  If your business is in or near you can put your own truck under the sheets being NC cut but the costs for a local delivery with the needed permits can be too high to justify.regarding fit and finishIf two pieces of sheet/plate are 20' long and the cut waves, then even if the edges are tacked to a knife edge fit; the curves or waves and irregularities in the cut/fairing/edge joining will show in the final seam.When doing details if you don't have a decent plan; I'm not sure how you'd have a sight picture/goal to work toward.  If we only have a vague idea of what to do to build (?) then the work is more or less wandering instead of working toward a clear goal.Aluminum expands and contracts with tacks and welds, so planning for those movements is critically important to get a reasonably smooth hull.The weld pattern is generally to tack on close centers, then dress the tacks down to the minimum required to hold.  This is not as critical with TIG tacks but is necessary with MIG tacks.Once the tacks are dressed, so they can be fused in a regular weld, then a pattern of weld is applied to each seam.  The weld pattern is generally symmetrical both side to side and fore and aft.  So you could imagine the hull in quarters and plan to add heat/weld/contraction in a pattern that is symmetric to the quadrants.Any give seam gets a series of dots along the edge in a pattern, usually 4" - 6" -8" or something along those dimensions.  the first passes are a couple of feet apart and are 4" passes.  That is followed by another set of 4"er's half between. Then a series of 6" passes in the gaps remaining and so on until the seam is tied in.By capturing and edge of two sheets, first with closely spaced tacks, and after that welding in small stitches, the expansion and contraction can be controlled but there is still a good deal of 'art' to this process.To get decent tie-in with MIG; all the starts and stops are cut/gouged/back chipped with carbide tools.  However but MOST TIG welds are not cut/gouged- although some are treated this way.cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Way cool more please.
Reply:All builders and designers solve the framing needs inside their own designs in ways they prefer or maybe can afford?My decisions here to build using the following parts is just one of the countless ways these structural/functional/shape based forms can be welded together to result in a boat.Lots of builders won't put spray rails on the outside of the topsides to avoid weld contraction headaches, but as plenty do have them.  Many builders make the corners of the hull, bow and transom, in one way or another.  These are just some ideas of how to do this work, if you are not in a hurry and have the time to do a little more detail work.Once the two 4"x2" x 1/4" spray rails were hung on the topsides and joined at the bow, I wanted to finish the stern by 'wrapping' the angle at the transom.In this image the side rail angle is butted to the plane of the transom on the port side and there is a shorter piece of the same material that has been tapered to stiffen the transom panel of the stern locker.they meet in an open, almost 90deg, joint that was filled with a piece of pipe to form a cone.this joint was used to create a wrapped around look of the spray rail and to join the transom stiffener with the side stiffening longitudinal spray rail.  A pipe section was cut to fit the two angles, and a short 1/4 circle of plate matches the horizontal leg of the two rails/angles.by welding the sched. 40 -4" pipe segment in between the two almost vertical faces a curved transition is formed that looks like the angle was bent.  The two welds are then faired to the adjoining surfaces and then the entire area is brushed with a 3M Scotchbrite (tm) belt on the 4" belt sander and finished a bit with a 4" rotary using the intermediate grit, this could be more polished with blue but since the boat will be etched after completion; the shine would go away.a 2" x 1/4" flat bar is welded to the inner edge of the sheer clamp/guard deck in the vertical. This weld, like the outside weld is completely dressed using a router and bull nose bit then finished with a buffer and sander.The result is a rounded joint that will not abrade lines or gear and will require cleaning a weld filled (possibly) by fishing over the sides.In order to make the entire gunwale assembly (top 1/2 of the topsides and sheer clamp/guard deck) into a triangular beam structure; 1" shed 40 6061-T6 pipe struts are welded to the sheer clamp/guard deck's inner flat bar and butted to the side sheet immediately behind the spray rail.  These joints are MIG welded vertically inside and under the guard deck and TIG welded to the side.  The struts are on 18" centers and begin vertically at the stern and as located toward the bow; each strut is raked a fraction more forward to improve their appearance.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:I've noticed that the pictures of the welds sure look rough!  I'm not in ZTs or Zap's class of welder (or human welding robots if you prefer) but the reduction and cropping these shots sure makes things look rough....At the bow, we needed someplace to stand to work over the stem and to stow the lines and ground tackle so a bow deck/anchor locker is the most common feature in skiffs this size and arrangement.I framed the locker with an L shaped opening to allow a larger hook to be carried and stowed compared to just a top opening deck hatch.the after bulkhead was fit to the deck and topsides then a forward transverse was added to hang the hatch coaming of 1-1/2" channel.By fitting the deck in three small remnants of other sheets the size was small, the fits easier and quicker and the effort to install the locker reduced.Intermediate under deck struts were added after the plane of the deck was established to stiffen the 0.160" 5086 plate for walking.Without the hatch, the opening is shown as framed and decked.An L shaped hatch was welded instead of pressed due to the lead time at the forming shop- they were backed up big time and I wanted to work on the hatch so it was cut and welded of sheet materials.hull to deck seam is about 3/16" wide on the 0.160" to 0.160" joint and is TIG welded using the naturally formed V between the vertical edge of the deck and inclined outward topsides.This weld may not be possible by hand torch, since the travel speed is so high. The peak amperage is 300 A but the 126 PPS allows a wetting of the lead edge so an inch is welded in less than two seconds but the killer for me is the arc gap has to be about 3/32" and that is hard to maintain in a kneeling position reaching over the deck and craning the helmet against the topsides.I would not have been able to keep this area wrinkle free, using TIG , without a mechanical wire feed torch.outside corners are almost always easier to do because they're more open access to weld.  This is the top seam between the deck and the starboard coaming side.In many of the welds here we'll see a black soot line next to the clean zone.  I use a drum sander to remove mill scale, and leave a rough finish on the aluminum and this process leaves a high anchor pattern on the aluminum.  That will almost always discolor outside the clean zone from junk retained in the high surface nap form sanding/buffing the sheets.won't be long now and this skiff will be built.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:That's a great looking boat. I think you did an awesome job building it and would love to own one. About how much would one like that cost to buy it ready made?GuyHypertherm Powermax 30Miller Syncrowave 250 DXMiller Challenger MigDevilbiss 60Gal 6hp Air CompressorCentury A/C D/C 225/140 Welder
Reply:Fatb', as we're both here already, if you ever want to build a skiff (or anything less than 40') just let me know and I'll come up to the shop and we'll kick one out. It would take some ramp up and prep, but I've built a few so; we won't be learning.Gill, there are plenty of welded skiff/small boat (less than 28' LOA is "small") builders so their sites would give some idea of costs?  I'd estimate that a well made skiff would run from 1.2 to 2.5k per foot of length for the metal work, but that would vary regionally? Why the range in pricing?  Design; if you're not discussing one design then the work scope is unknown so only guesses can be offered.Rigged and finished is harder (approaching impossible) to estimate because one skiff will have a single 150Hp engine and the next one twin 200's so there's no way to reply rationally. If you include some electronics with the large pair of engines your cost is more than the metal work.In Alaska, we pay through the nose to ship stuff here, and everyone considers it the cost to be here?  We pay higher wages and transport here, so a Puget Sound boat is likely much less than what we see here?  Gulf Coast labor may be less and that is another big factor, so the best way to understand welded boat costs is to ask the builder of the boat you want to consider what its worth, then look at the shipping to your location.One of the main problems with aluminum boats is valuation.  In the late 50's and early 60's a fleet of commercial fishing boats was built by three builders along the Pacific Northwest coast and Puget Sound. They were built for a cannery (they used to put salmon in 'cans' instead of freezing the fish for transport) which had a fleet that it worked for shares with its seasonal fishermen, out of the Kenai River in the Cook Inlet here where I live.These boats cost $5,200.00 each in '59' 60' and 62' and are still fishing.  I know one boat that has earned more than 2.5 millions dollars (gross value) in catch in those years.  The boat is still fully functional and is on its 5th or 6th engine, has been modified plenty and still keeps working every year.So if we compare any glass boat, any steel boat or any wood boat to a same size and shape welded aluminum boat, the result is that the aluminum boat was sold/bought/built for 0.0000nothing% of it's eventual value.Welded skiffs are much more expensive than their plastic and wood counterparts.  But they will last your lifetime and your children's lifetime and who knows how long after that?So when we look at welded aluminum pricing, its hard to make a dollar comparison because we're discussing a boat that may last a century?  We don't know because none of the current builds have ever worn out.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:I can taste the Halibut already! Very nice Kevin. Don't try to weld like Zap or ZTFab, nobody likes a copycat! Last edited by tanglediver; 05-30-2012 at 10:01 PM.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Great work man, way to go! awsome build and thanks for shareing with us!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been CowboysAwesome work Kevin! I sure wish your posts were available when I first started messing around building boats out of the pretty metal. I'm just an amateur but have done enough to recognize true skill, knowledge and art when I see it.Its been awhile since my last build and the itch is getting pretty bad. Since my normal prep/fit to weld ratio is probably closer to 100:1. I'm thinking about maybe trying a SpecMar design and having Alaska Copper and Brass CNC the sheet. Any experience or comments with this route?Thanks from a fellow Alaskan.........
Reply:tangle, welder, weedn', thanks for the generous comments, I'll take some more bandwidth and post some more images in a bit.Weedenb, I do know that Specmar/Pollard boats are strong, well built, proven designs and seem to have good value in the market.If you're going to shop then I'd recommend going all out and finding all the designers offering plans and cut files, so you have the most scope to make your decision.  If you happen to like one designer's lines over others, say Specmar, then looking is not worth your time, but if you're still looking for designs then shopping may pay you back?I'd recommend Bill Lincoln of Response Marine as a fine welded aluminum designer who's done a wide range of work.  John Simpson of Vancouver BC (I think) is an old hand with the Miracle Metal and I'd guess both of these men will provide NC cut files? I've only done NC work with AreoTech in Anchorage, that was steel not aluminum and it was water jet,  so it was expensive.  I've used other local plaz tables in the Kenai area but don't know Ak Cu&Br's work.  If it's like all the other things that outfit does; it will be good quality.  One very positive reason to consider them is they can sell you the materials then cut the files, then ship the wrapped package and you've only got to deal with one vendor as opposed to using multiple services and having to transport and handle the material.If you decide to work with a 'stock' design then all the major designers will be less expensive. Next up the cost ladder is to modify a stock design in some way, if you keep a hull and just rearrange the house, decks and power that is least expensive modifications. Last, and most expensive, is to have a designer originate a design just for you.  Then you pay for the entire design and the cut files costs too. Once designers have the cut files for their stock designs (Specmar's large catalog of packages) the costs are lower than one-off.  So if you can live with the stock packages and AK/Cu will burn the material?  You could likely save 50-60% of the man hours in a build.Hope this helps, don't hesitate to pm or repost if I'm not making sense?  [email protected] direct emailCheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:This just made my day.  Awesome work!  Eager to seeing more! :-)JoeMiller 140 Autoset (2010)Miller Syncrowave 250 (1996)
Reply:That helps a bunch Kevin. My last hull kinda started out with an O'Brien design but I ended up modifying  it to the point I had to write a bunch of code to regenerate all the offsets. This plus all the hand layout and cutting created quite a long job. I can't justify dedicated hull software but I do have Acad and SolidEdge to help out.The appeal with the Pollard hulls is just what you noted, they provide the full NC code (or kit it directly)to pass on to your supplier who can then zip it all out and package it up for you. I'm down in SEAK so Ak Cu&Br is one of our normal suppliers whom I've dealt with in the past, very helpful folks. One nice other feature they have is that they feed their NC cutter off roll stock so there isn't the normal sheet size limitation. I assume that saves a bit on wastage also?Lots of other questions but can you please give some details on the drum sander and the tig wire feeder (and photos)? Post weld hull finishing is a real PITA and never seems to yield satifactory results. Traditional tig welding just doesn't seem to be suitable for hulls (given my skill level) other that spot work but I can see all kinds of potential advantages with a feeder? If you think your welds seem rough you should see mine! I can barely walk and talk at the same time so hand dipping tig rod is something I'll never master. Someone like Zap is so far out there I'm convinced he's a robot also. I'm pretty well resigned to being a MIG mangler the rest of my life.Thanks again!
Reply:Originally Posted by weedenbLots of other questions but can you please give some details on the drum sander and the tig wire feeder (and photos)? Post weld hull finishing is a real PITA and never seems to yield satifactory results. Traditional tig welding just doesn't seem to be suitable for hulls (given my skill level) other that spot work but I can see all kinds of potential advantages with a feeder? If you think your welds seem rough you should see mine! I can barely walk and talk at the same time so hand dipping tig rod is something I'll never master. Someone like Zap is so far out there I'm convinced he's a robot also. I'm pretty well resigned to being a MIG mangler the rest of my life.Thanks again!
Reply:weedenb,I do understand the appeal of a kit package and if the lines are pleasing enough to you- you know what they offer.I expect AkCu's roll fed table makes nesting a dream in terms of percentage of off cuts/rems?  In order to know what was the saving with them you'd have to send cut files to other services and propose to send them fixed dim sheets/plates and then compare the two quotes?  Lots of work/time when I'd guess AkCu had done that exercise in order to set their own pricing structure?Re software, I use Delfship Pro which is inexpensive but not as complete a package as say MaxSurf or AutoShip for example.  Its more than adequate for surface modeling but requires you to export and work in another vector environment to do many tasks that are more or less integral to the big time full suite applications.I've even written a 'gettting' started tutorial in D'shipPro (older version) that I've emailed to lots of people who just wanted to get some basic skiff modeling going. There are ten lessons, not particularly well worded or edited into a very tight presentation, but if followed the exercises do get the new D'ship designer going.TIG gun I use is not made any longer.  It is from OTC http://www.daihen-usa.com/  and is covered somewhere here on this site (?) that a search will probably find?The drum sander is a 50" wide Woodmaster http://www.woodmasterdrumsanders.com/faq.cfm and it was on a half price clearance nearly a decade past- so I got one.  I used it for a bunch of wood work I was doing at that time. Then it occurred to me I could use hook and loop 'scotchbrite (tm)'-like plastic abrasive sheet wrapped on the drum and put sheet metal through the tool.   This leaves a brushed finish on the metal but means you have pay attention to the order of the build and sheet cleaning.  There is also the matter of rigging the shop to feed a 25' sheet into and out of one point in the shop.Also, a method not always considered but worth discussing, is acid etching material before you build.  I'm not talking about the topsides or outside of the bottom that can be etched anytime after the boat is built. I'm discussing the insides, especially the internal framing and bottom sheets below the decks.What is involved is to stand the parts/sheet/plate on edge in a trough that is long and narrow.  Then using a sprayer, begin at the bottom and flood the sheet upwards with etching solution, and when the mill scale is removed, rinse top down collecting the run off in the trough.Dilution by the rinse water and then adding some base will neutralize the rinse/waste solution so a product like Zep-a-Lume can be disposed of without harm once its used.I mention this because the main cost is space and effort not parts or tools.  If you have the enclosed space to build the skiff -LOA + 4' of shop- the it stands to reason the work to make an etching process inside is not really that large.Rain gutter would work, a plywood trough with a plastic sheet liner would work too, as a collection basin for the acid and rinse.  It would stand to reason that an overhead lift would make this much more easily done and that lift, with a spreader, could be used to hang the sheet/plate/cut part over the collection basin.But even a skiff in the garage could accommodate a couple of overhead double blocks to hang a sheet to etch the mill scale before tacking up. This would leave a uniform white metal finish that can be clear coated if you're headed in that direction of left to weather so it will become a uniform dull gray.Post build finishing should begin during the build, at least the planning should. If you leave it till the boat is done building, then the tools and methods are more limited.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:The stern of this skiff is has two large lockers; either side of the engine cutout/splash tray.These spaces need a pair of bulkheads to hang doors that will keep the weather out and clean up this surface.due to time constraints when this bulkhead and hatch coaming was made, press braked 5086/5052 material for the U shaped coaming was not used.  Instead a 1-1/2" round cornered square 6061_T6 tube was used by cutting off one side in the band saw.  The resulting U was about 0.140" thick and 1-1/4" deep and the corners are tight radii, the edges at the cut were dressed flat on the 30" belt sander (background) so they were clean.By welding the outside leg of the U to the inner corner of a cutout in the bulkhead panel, each nearly square bulkhead could be per-assembled before final install in the skiff.To get at the welds the skiff is rolled down on the starboard gunwale, here, is another example of the Davis Jig's utility to help improve weld access.Both sides/lockers got the same 2' square (inside opening) to hold a set of 12" doors/hatches.  Here, the skiff is rolled to port to accommodate welding the bulkhead on that side.The starboard side locker will hold the propane tank and the spare motor (kicker) fuel tank, on a shelf built to fit that tank, which is just a small outboard plastic can.  Both fuel sources and the main engine fuel filter will be in this locker so its vented fore and aft to allow fumes out.This image shows the inboard side of the starboard locker, with the vent shroud and the detail of the spray rail wrap around into this space.cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:It is a true pleasure for me to watch a craftsman like yourself at work, Mr. Morin. It's inspiring and educational, keep the pics and in-depth explanations coming, they're worth their weight in gold! My father has commissioned my assistance in a re-fit of his old aluminum 22' work boat, and while I am marginally proficient at welding aluminum it's extremely helpful to see examples like yours, along with the myriad little tricks (like the 2x4's on the pipe clamps to extend the throat of the clamp, your spray rail pusher, etc). I also agree with your statement regarding the value of an aluminum boat, a well built aluminum craft will last multiple lifetimes, I have many pleasant childhood memories of boating with my family and hope to make new ones with my own children on my father's trusty (but ugly) aluminum boat  Keep up the good work!
Reply:thanks for the kind word Mechtician,I'm glad you're enjoying the build posts.  (things are little less formal here, my Dad was called Mr. - I go by Kevin but I appreciate your observance of the niceties)Good eye- that you spotted the little things that may help your own work.   I've used three or four tools of the type shown ('can't hook' or log peavey) to put on rails and I've also drilled the extrusion and the side of the boat to pull the rail and side together using all thread rods and big plate washers inside the hull. These small holes are fairly easy to fill and dress smooth so they don't detract from the finished boat and can be a quick way to hang some rail shapes.Remember that if the old skiff is rough looking and weathered  you can make it look much better by using an acid washing solution to remove the dirt and grime of years.  Sure does brighten up older welded boats that are bare/weathered/covered in fish waste.thanks again for your encouragement.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Great details Kevin, please keep them coming. Every picture brings to memory an 'awwwww...... why didn't I think of that at the time' moment! I'm going to have to stop looking or I'll never get started on my next one. I'm already getting evil thoughts of things to do to my old Profax spoolgun because of you
Reply:When I built fulltime in the 70's and 80's (last century) I made my first TIG gun by mounting a torch onto an MK push pull feeder; the Cobramatic.I used a short bracket that had a small segment of pipe to land on the MIG torch barrel, and another on a rod leg to stand on the TIG torch barrel.This allowed me to adjust the torch angle to the MIG feed tip, but it was not flexible once it was bent to shape.  I used a SS screw type hose band clamp to attach the aluminum pipe saddles to the torch barrels but then switched to just twisted copper wire. It worked, by using the push pull torch at or near horizontal and the TIG torch at or near vertical, but it was not as handy or easy to get around as the TIG gun I use now.  I think if I were going to experiment now, I'd use a saddle on each torch barrel and then put some sort of 'universal' between the two saddles?CheersKevin Morin
Reply:Kevin,Beautiful work!  I'm totally going to steal this trick of extending the reach of Pony pipe clamps with 2x4s...I could really go for a Jersey Sub right now.  Ate at the one in Soldotna when I was up there a few years ago.Last edited by dbotos; 06-02-2012 at 12:37 AM.
Reply:I am amazed!  When i see that, I really feel a since of my own inadequacy to duplicate it.  I don't weld enough aluminum to even compare to that level of work.  On many jobs I think, "yeah, I could approach that", but here and there, there are jobs that I think, "That is way out of my knowledge and skill set!"  Thank you for posting your pictures.
Reply:Kevin, while you're giving up all your secrets how about the hand tools you use? Below is my primary stuff that I've found indispenseable but I'm sure I'm missing something? Besides the worm drive I also use my 12" sliding compound miter and 10" table saw extensively , with the best non-ferrous blades I can find for all the saws. You've mentioned Vixen files I'll need to check into and I'm still looking for a good way to clean up an inside corner that I botched? I have my carbide burrs on my dies grinder but they can get a little wild, need some kind of guide or steady rest?Thanks again!
Reply:Vary enjoyable thread. Still looking forward to more. I know a lady in Seward who should have called you lol  http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=110151
Reply:FB, those 'welds' in the link do look like someone was trying to qualify for your signature line?  I'm not even sure how they were made:  ? but cover gas does not appear to have been a factor?Weedenb, I use the same tools as you show, but different brands and models and lots of belts sanders.  I don't use table saws for either wood work or aluminum, I use band saws, and then belt sand the edge.  Just a preference, and I use the die grinder and carbide burrs extensively for weld prep gouging as well as routers.I also use a "widow" maker with a guard I've modified to work as 'feet', but its not for the faint of heart, so I can't in all safety consciousness recommend others build one unless they have lots of free hand skill saw experience milling fits and dressing welds.Inside corners are harder to clean up but the best is a foot/shoe/guide on a router.  Use a big angle, some UHMW tape and fit the guide so the burr/bit is guided into the cut.  IT does take some work to build but is worth the time.Scott, I've practiced for a long time.  I think that is the main factor?  There are two different aspects of practice, one is the muscle memory or 'skill' the other is the "sight picture".If you do a task over and over you may improve your muscle skills but not improve your site picture or goal.  I think all of us in the trade(s) have to work on improving both our body's movement control but more critically we need to keep improving what we want to see and not settle for less than it takes to 'get there'.Thanks for your compliments, but I think you and every other person who wanted to do this work- could.  If you compare where you started with where you are now?  MY take is you'd do fine, all you have to do is practice enough and that includes practicing your ideas or images of what level of work you will accept.  Both the Z'welders, here, have fine hands, great motor skills, but they also work to fine tolerances that hardly gets discussed.  Neither will take poor fits, neither one will light up if not prepared, neither one will take less than they want to do. Looking at the Z's work here, they also don't do short cuts, both of them are in the habit of 'doing it right'.  That didn't come overnight.If you followed their example, your work would move up toward theirs. It's not purely hood time, I think we've all got to study our own work and bring that "up"; along with our welding.I'm not saying you'll ever want to spend the many thousands of hours I've spent building welded skiffs, I was simply saying if you work on your ideas as you work on your welds all your projects will improve as you go. My first skiff didn't look like this one!Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin MorinThanks for your compliments, but I think you and every other person who wanted to do this work- could.  If you compare where you started with where you are now?  MY take is you'd do fine, all you have to do is practice enough and that includes practicing your ideas or images of what level of work you will accept.  Both the Z'welders, here, have fine hands, great motor skills, but they also work to fine tolerances that hardly gets discussed.  Neither will take poor fits, neither one will light up if not prepared, neither one will take less than they want to do. Looking at the Z's work here, they also don't do short cuts, both of them are in the habit of 'doing it right'.  That didn't come overnight.If you followed their example, your work would move up toward theirs. It's not purely hood time, I think we've all got to study our own work and bring that "up"; along with our welding.I'm not saying you'll ever want to spend the many thousands of hours I've spent building welded skiffs, I was simply saying if you work on your ideas as you work on your welds all your projects will improve as you go. My first skiff didn't look like this one!
Reply:Thanks for the feedback Kevin,I didn't think there was some magic tool I was missing (forgot to throw the belt sander in the pile but I use that a lot also) but I'll never stop looking. Besides, what kind of fun would life be without shopping for and buying more tools?I've done the aluminum machining with a skilsaw and a scary cutterhead on an angle grinder tricks, I'm not going to provide any public detail nor recommend this either. Fortunately maturity and wisdom prevailed before any serious injuries.A guide as you described for the die grinder does sound worth pursuing, I'm thinking something like a mini version of what the solid surface counter folks use.If I just didn't screw things up in the first place I wouldn't really need it but I do tend to make a mess from time to time Boat builders are a special kind of crazy, ones that do it with metal even more so Very much enjoyed your posts, take care!Robert..........
Reply:I think it was post 20 pic 3 your superviser is visible in the corner it  looks like he is checking your work (or is he looking around to try to figgure out where you are hideing ?). Keep up the post it is very interesting. I like Aluminum for boats and I believe that with all those shipping containers floating around out there it will pay for itself fast. Most people don't know how many are lost off container ships each year and float semi submerged waiting to be hit by a hull in the middle of the night. There is also all the floating sunami materials. Lots of real hazzards for boats. Oh by the way you sir are a craftsman indeed. But one thing... teach someone what you know before its lost forever.Miller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:Kevin, Thanks for sharing the pics and build story, awesome job I like your attention to detail and pride you take in your work.
Reply:dumb as a stump, the discussion of passing on what we know to others is fairly complex, in my experience.  I've spent some time thinking about this topic as I don't have children and therefore no obvious family members interested in my work.The next obvious group where I might pass the learned information is to employees, if I had them regularly anymore, or to an apprentice of which I've had a few for different periods in the last four decades.But it seems to me that the interest factor is the largest and the most elusive.  By that I mean that my interest in metal boats drives the desire to find ways to build, to shape and weld and finish a boat.  The desire to "do better than I did last time", is driven by the interest and that is not something I find can be passed to anyone else.So while I agree that passing on the information seems like a good idea, the practice of interacting with others, in general, seems to limit what can be done in this department.  My knowledge was gained by response to (personal) interest in a very limited subject and that seems a precondition hard to locate in others?I don't disagree, I've just found the knowledge (I have) is not worth others' doing much/enough/sufficient work to learn.  Yes, I had to learn it, and slowly too, but many folks today seem to believe they can become accomplished in less time than it really takes.  That means that teaching/training/mentoring is a "non-trivial" event!  Both the teacher and student have to want to persist in passing information, and that's hard to arrange.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Absolutely incredible work! What a project.
Reply:Somehow I missed this thread...Thanks for sharing Kevin!I used to build boats, fiberglass (itchy, dusty) and some steel.Thanks again!-IanMiller Dynasty 350Miller XMT 304
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin MorinBut it seems to me that the interest factor is the largest and the most elusive.  By that I mean that my interest in metal boats drives the desire to find ways to build, to shape and weld and finish a boat.  The desire to "do better than I did last time", is driven by the interest and that is not something I find can be passed to anyone else.So while I agree that passing on the information seems like a good idea, the practice of interacting with others, in general, seems to limit what can be done in this department.  My knowledge was gained by response to (personal) interest in a very limited subject and that seems a precondition hard to locate in others?I don't disagree, I've just found the knowledge (I have) is not worth others' doing much/enough/sufficient work to learn.  Yes, I had to learn it, and slowly too, but many folks today seem to believe they can become accomplished in less time than it really takes.  That means that teaching/training/mentoring is a "non-trivial" event!  Both the teacher and student have to want to persist in passing information, and that's hard to arrange.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Kevin, fantastic work on the project. When I saw your cad drawing at the start of this thread, I was reminded of some work done by this guy: http://forums.sketchucation.com/view...?f=333&t=35820. No welding in it, but thought you might appreciate it. - Mick