Pulse MIG questions

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I have and use Pulse on my TIG welder, mostly welding thin copper, and I like it.I hear different things about MIG pulse.   Some say it is for appearance (stack of dimes look), others say that it is useful on difficult welds.   I suppose that both could be true.Is MIG pulse useful?   When?Is MIG pulse something that is easy to use and set up?   Or do you need quite a bit of practice to get to the point where you find MIG pulse useful?    My concern is that MIG is not something that I do every day or even every week, so maybe I should forget pulse and keep it simple.Do you need a special feeder for MIG pulse?   Does it need to be matched to the power supply?RichardSculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:You need a much better understanding of GMAW-P.I'd recommend you go to millerwelds.com and click on the resources tab.  There you will find an offer for their "Student Pack".  It's $25 shipping included.  It includes an excellent Tig Handbook, a GMAW Handbook, a GMAW-P Handbook, and a bunch of other goodies like weld calculators.GMAW-P is an advanced mig process, which requires equipment not normally found on hobbiest machines.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:i am currently saving for a pulsed mig your looking at a 3600 -7000 thousand investment if you want a push pull set up. i have not done alot of pulsed mig but for what i was able to do on 050 aluminum made my mind up for me.  i will probably get a base machine after i sell my 255 and use a spool gun before i move up to push pull for the type of stuff i wanna do it fits. if its something that your hardly gonna use i wouldn't drop the coin350P 30A spool gun cut master 51  syncro 250 other stuff " take a dog off the street and make him prosper and he will not bite you sad the same cannot be said for man" i didnt use punctuation just to piss you off
Reply:Think pulsed mig is more usefull for spray transfer whilst out of position. Or alum. Not ever tried it but have planned and looked into it.G
Reply:Sundown, I did buy the student pack, probably at your suggestion.   However, I only saw partial answers to my questions in the GMAW-P book from Miller.  I just looked at the book again.   This is probably not one of the better books in the student pack.  A lot of it seems to be a sales job for pulse and for Miller equipment.  It primarily compares spray pulse with spray transfer, but most of us probably use short circuit transfer.Let me list the ten advantages of CMAW-P, per Miller.All position welding (but short circuit will also weld out of position)Larger diameter electrode wiresFlexibility and productivityMinimal splatterGood for very thin or very thick metal.Less distortion and HAZ, due to lower heat inputProgrammable (depending on the power supply)Adaptive to stickout changes (depending on the equipment)Remove impurities from the weld puddle by agitationMay lower fume output.I have no need for high deposition rates myself, yet that seems to be a key advantage of spray pulse.My questions are more practical, however.   What do the users think?  Is pulse a lot of hype, to let the welding companies sell new and expensive welders?  Is this primarily a tool for production welding?  Is pulse hard to use?  (If you have $7000 for a Lincoln C300, you can supposedly  just tell the welder the wire size and the material, and let it set all the parameters.)  Is pulse still a kind of exotic process that most welders are not familiar with?   As someone who does not weld every day, should I just forget pulse and stick to mastering regular MIG?The gentleman mentioning welding 0.050 aluminum indicated the pulse appeared to work very well in that application.  That makes sense, especially since thin aluminum would be a challenging MIG process, where one could use all the help one could get.  At this point, I would probably use TIG pulse in that application, much slower, but would get the job done.At some level, I am just looking for feedback on whether MIG pulse is something that I should consider going forward, or stick to regular MIG welding.   I have been looking at upgrading my MIG welder, trying to consider what direction I should go.   The simplest and lowest cost alternative is probably the Millermatic 211, which would be a straight replacement for my current MIG welder, with a bit more power and 110V capability, but taking up no more space.  But I have also looked at XMT304 and XMT350;  the price of a used XMT304 is similar to that of a new Millermatic 211, and an Optima pulser can add pulse to those welders.Based on the answers this far, it appears that most people's knowledge of pulsed MIG is secondhand; perhaps the cost of the equipment is prohibitive for most folks, or maybe the advantages are just not that persuasive for most applications.RichardSculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:my buddy worked as a welder for years as a welder at electric boat (they build submarines) and that was all they liked to use pulsed mig on everything they could i have tested on and used the new lincoln welder and they will set the parameters for you based on position,wire,size and metal thickness. I would say that they preform superbly on thin metal due to the pulsing just like the tig does .....but not down as thin i think.they do make welding verts and overheads a lot easier in my opinion. I too have been looking into a xmt setup with the optima controller i think it would make a better welder for me due to the price and the versatility of the setup over a dedicated mig welder.After the arc has died the weld remains
Reply:As I indicated before, the average hobby welder will not have much need for pulsed spray mig welding.The equipment to do pulsed spray is beyond the financial reach of most hobby welders.  Really comes into play when doing out of position spray arc welding or when welding thinner material than normally associated with spray arc welding.The XMT series combined with the Optima pulser will give you GMAW-P capability, but don't forget that you still need a wirefeeder, which will run you nearly as much as a small 240V mig.  The XMT350 MPa has pulse built in.Short arc mig, due to the nature of the process, (breaking the arc) gives you the benefit or a rapid freezing puddle, making it suitable for out of position welds.I'd say you'd be better served at this point to upgrade the mig you have now.  Pulse is not really viable in the under 250A machines.BTW:  If you're using a lot of pulse for welding thinner aluminum, you're not welding aluminum properly.  I use pulse very infrequently when welding aluminum.  With the high heat transfer of the material, I don't see the need very frequently.  Biggest thing I use pulse for on aluminum is agitating the puddle to remove impurities (primarily in cast).A LOT has been published about GMAW-P.  I would think a search would turn up more information than you care to read.  Remember though, that like many topics, you'll get a fair share of BS from people who don't use the process.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:You asked about looks.  The pulse is much faster than what is required for the stack of dimes look.  It can leave fine ripples.  To get stack of dimes - or rather stack of triangles look you need pulse over pulse system or whatever Miller and Lincoln are calling it these days.The pre-programmed settings for the 350P seem to have lower deposition rates on thin stuff and higher deposition rates on thick stuff when compared to short arc.  I find that on stuff say 1/4" and thicker, the higher deposition rates are a little more than I'm comforable with.   I'd rather short-arc with a slight weave to keep my edges straight.On aluminum, pulse makes it stupid easy.  Once I got the spool gun properly setup, it made it easy to run beads.  In fact, with pulse, the total arc length is typically less than full spray and it makes it easier to control were the aluminum is going.  The slightly faster freeze makes out of position easier as well (not even sure if its possible with straight spray transfer).  My biggest worry is penetration and that is down to one item - wire speed.  BTW, from your post it seems you might not be aware that MIG on aluminum is typically a spray transfer process.  Tough to aim you aluminum.My vote is yes for serious aluminum, waste of time/money for steel.As for welding .050 aluminum.... good luck with that.  Maybe with chill bars.  The difference between laying a bead down cold and melting through is very very small.  With .035 wire I have done some attempts on 1/16 aluminum (.065) -  Its an easy job for TIG.  Even with pulse, I found warpage unacceptable  More like welding butter.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Sundown has explained it pretty well.But pulse MIG is essentially a way to get spray transfer at lower voltages (And therefore on thinner materials & out of position welds). Why? Because spray transfer is superior to short arc in many waysTo get spray transfer, you need first to use argon shielding gas, or a mixture primarily of argon. Secondly, you need voltages in the 26+ volt range. Obviously, this is pretty hot and not practical at all on thin material.The pulse essentially comes from pulsing the voltage. It alternates between a voltage that would be more in the range of globular transfer, and a voltage that would allow spray transfer. A "globule" can form in .10 seconds or so, so the voltage is pulsed every .010 second. At this speed, a globule does not have time to form, and spray transfer can be continued at a lower voltage, with the benefits of better penetration, reduced spatter, and out of position welding on thin material.Give me fuel, give me fire, give me that which I desire.
Reply:I agree with many of the responses here. I've had pulse capability for 8-9 years now and fiddled with it a few times but in the end don't use it for my work. I'm all steel and high energy with the odd exception of tooling or personal repairs.I tested it where I thought it would be useful, with .045 wire you can go as low as 40amps which should make welding .050 straight forward... Well in my case it magnified the need for experience welding thin section. At those settings the need for the perfect travel speed and rock steady movement showed up fast. The power supply can't make up for poor technique or slow travel.I think with aluminum and stainless with a repetative weld it would work well, but still demands a high weldor skill level. So in my opinion more money doesn't make up for bad operators...It does knock smoke down a ton though.At the higher settings you're never gonna get me to like the "deep", "but narrow" penetration profiles with steel.Matt
Reply:We got a couple Lincoln Powerwave C300's at work for the overhead and vertical welds.  They make things alot easier for some guys.
Reply:Richard, the newer power supplies have many more welding arc characteristics and the two major manufacturers have lots and lots of advertising people who don't weld- but seem to make up the terms used?What happens, as a result, is the terminology gets muddied by the ad guys, and welders, like us, end up with a bunch of meaningless terminology floating around. The LWS (rep.s) don't help much by going to their sales meetings and seminars and coming home to begin using all these terms over the counter when talking to folks thinking of buying a new power supply.First, pulsed MIG simply means that a DC power source that will allow that flat line DC power to be increased and decreased rapidly; pulsing.  This can happen in short arc mode, or spray mode, and that seems like a major confusion to the counter guys because they very often fail to make the distinction between the two methods of transfer when discussing pulsed MIG.Now, Lincoln, Bless their spotted hides, have decided that not only is pulsed DC good for welders, but they've added a secondary pulse which they term pulse WITH pulse.  (PWP)We don't even had the first term agreed between different manufacturer's and one of them throws this new term out!  Pulsed MIG can help MIG weld aluminum in many cases with less learning. Here is why; if the amperage and voltage are surged higher then lower rapidly, a MIG bead can have a net lower heat in the metal while still "wetting", and creating the heat of fusion along the weld line at the parent metal.  This can happen in short arc (globular transfer) or spray mode (near vaporization of the wire).So, you can weld faster (if you've practiced enough) and you can weld "colder" (net less amperage added) if you understand how, if you have a pulsed MIG system.(But) If you are using a large/wide whipped bead in 3/16" plate with 0.045" wire - pulsed MIG is not really going to add much to your welds.  The reason is; whipping wide puddles creates lots of heat therefore fusing the two parent metals and the slower travel of a whipped bead gives the increased time to melt/fuse/overcome the chilling rate and you get a fine bead.But.... if  you are down to 0.100" with 0.035 or 0.030" --- NOW, that pulse can help you get a wetted and fused bead at net lower amperage into the parent metal and that is a gain. Especially for the less experienced welder, who may have travel speed issues in thin material.The draw-back is that it's almost always the more experienced welder who understands the system(s) well enough to use them!!!  That is the welder least likely to need the feature is the one welder who can use it most effectively- once they learn how it works.Pulse with Pulse, Lincoln's thin metal MIG enhancement, increases the gains of heat conservation even more- but it does so by creating an incredibly fast short-arc mode where the wire transfers in (big) droplets.In fact I'd call Lincoln's PWP more a globular transfer than spray, it creates giant molten droplets on the wire at a high rate and drops them into the puddle. That mode is like using a mechanized TIG system because there is no spray of micro-sized wire droplets.You can see these huge droplets on the wire as it feeds and the resulting weld is VERY pure, no is gas trapped at the root, and very smooth, uniform drag pattern.  [Most long term aluminum MIG hands have developed a whipped or patterned puddle that borders between short arc and spray. This is not understood by newer welders but the reason we did/do that is to get the hottest wet fusion edge with the older power supplies.]While all these modes can be useful to the experienced welder, I find that they're not obvious to the newer MIG user.  I've had discussions with close friends, of four decades welding experience, who don't seem to readily see the ideas implied by these digitally controlled arc characteristics.I have the Lincoln Power MIG 350 MP and its taken a bit to learn to use it well.  This power supply has four or five modes of welding for each size and alloy wire. Even with the factory default settings to use for a basis while learning, I'd say that these programmable arc control power supplies are a lot to learn.If you're willing to explore the controls, experiment for hours and explore these controls, I will say that the pulsed and pulse with pulse machines are worth the effort to someone who wants to perfect their MIG bead over a wide range of welds. Almost all the modes are designed to allow the aluminum MIG welder to drag the weld- not whip or pattern the bead.  It does take time and practice to develop a uniform full fusion MIG bead but once you have -the newer modes aren't as much help.On the other hand, these newer digitally controlled weld modes are very helpful if a new MIG hand can drag the weld with good consistency - the power supply can be configured to "do the rest".But. if you're only getting a few hundred hours a year in MIG, I doubt these power supplies are really going to return their costs quickly.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Kevin, I have to say that you have given one of the soundest answers to any question that I have ever read on a forum, any forum. Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear.
Reply:a few more words on Pulsed MIGhttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ght=pulsed+mig
Reply:DaveReynolds, thank you for the kind words.cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Kevin, Informative post for sure. I've appreciated your many helpful posts.  One question, I noted your statement  "Almost all the modes are designed to allow the aluminum MIG welder to drag the weld- not whip or pattern the bead". Does this not lead to a reduced weld quality in aluminum?  Not to state the obvious but I'm thinking of dragging as welding with the tip angled away from the direction of travel.Last edited by Bloadtoad; 01-15-2012 at 11:59 PM.
Reply:I do a LOT of pulsed spray.  Usually on steel, but on aluminum too.  Its true, I can weld 1/16" aluminum with a spool gun and pulsed spray.  Look here for a small example of pulsed spray on steel.  Its 5/8" X 2" bar welded to 1/8" plate or sheet what ever you call it.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...d=1#post683931   Post 13Aluminum can do pulse on pulse which makes the dimes.  I find it useless.   It cannot be done on steel because it would change the stick out.The pulse is a change in AMPS from about 40 to 400 at a fast rate (Hz).Onl aluminum I  can only push.  If I try to drag the weld is black and not pre heated properely.  I am not the only one here that uses pulsed spray MIG or GMAW-P.  I will find the thread on aluminum I did quite a few years ago.    Gotta go to work right now.DavidLast edited by David R; 01-16-2012 at 06:46 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I work as a civilian welder for the Navy and they have been talked into the miracles of pulse arc. They claim it is a cleaner process and is more productive but to me that is BS. I can put down the same amount of dual shield welds in less time all day long. Pulse arc on thick material does not like to make small verticals. 3/8" or more to make it look flat and normal. The reason we are stuck with pulse is because of the HY100 plate that we use. The shipyards weld procedure also calls for pulse in the flat position and horizontal as well. strange but true. To me the Pulse Arc is kind of like those 24" rims on the cars nowadays. It looks cool sitting there, but when you try to race it, you lose.CERTIFICATIONS:7018M- H.V.O10718M- H.V.O11018M- H.V.O9N10- H.V.O71T-1-HYM- H.O.V100S1 PULSE ARC 0,035- H.O.V100S1 PULSE ARC 0.045- H.O.VER70S-3 PULSE ARC 0.035 H.O.VER70S-3 PULSE ARC 0.045 H.O.VER5554- H.O.V
Reply:Here is the link to aluminum pulsed spray.  Post #4 shows 1/8" aluminum T joint.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ighlight=sprayDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.