I cannot weld a fillet, what am I doing wrong?

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I've been practicing laying beads flat, then some butt welds with some 1/8" 5052 sheet scraps. They're looking pretty okay but let's face it this is as easy as it gets TIGging aluminum gets.Of course the most likely application where I will need to join 2 peices of AL is the right angle fillet weld. My title suggests I cannot weld a fillet, that is not entirely true... I have produced some unsightly irregular beads that do manage to join 2 peices at right angles.The resulting fillets are HUGE, seemingly far out of proportion to the metal being joined. Why? Because I cannot get a puddle to form at the intersection of the joint, so I pretty much have to swing the arc from top to bottom, MIG style. I understand why this would be the case, after all, the arc is always going to follow the path of least resistance, and the corner, where the parts meet, is never going to be closer to the electrode than the wall or the floor. As such, the arc, and the puddle, always forms on the wall or the floor and does not flow to the other element. I have tried pointing the electrode fully and getting it as close to the corner as possible but the arc and the puddle are still on the floor or the wall, never the junction.Can someone shed some light on what I'm doing wrong?1/8" 5052 AL3/32 1.5% lanthanated electrode pointed3/32 4043 filler3/8 cup17 CFH Argon145Abalance 7.0 to 10JoeLast edited by scudzuki; 03-03-2012 at 06:57 PM.Miller Syncrowave 200Mac/Miller MW130 MIGKalamazoo bandsawCincinnati Arrow 500 VMCColchester Dominion 15 x 36 lathe with 2 axis DRO
Reply:Go back to basics. Establish a puddle a small one right at the root of the joint. Build from there. You must see both parent metals get "wet" at least a little before you start adding filler.
Reply:That's what I've been doing, but all I get is a bead on the floor or the wall, never in the corner.JoeMiller Syncrowave 200Mac/Miller MW130 MIGKalamazoo bandsawCincinnati Arrow 500 VMCColchester Dominion 15 x 36 lathe with 2 axis DRO
Reply:The arc comes off the side of the electrode at 90°  That means, the longer the point, the wider the arc cone.Esab/Lorch ET-220iEsab 160i caddyThermal LM-200 Lincoln feedersThermal Pee-Wee 85sThermal 60i- 3phase /RPC powered (Beast)Thermal Drag-gun 35CINE 1500 Klutch 140i
Reply:don't know if you are using a pedal or how many amps you are capable of putting out.  i am guessing you are using a pedal.   i would suggest maxing out the amps,  then have two edges of the cup touching the top and bottom of the aluminum.  wall and floor.  the tungsten sticking out so that you can feed the rod without hitting the tungsten and still keeping the tungsten far enough away from the puddle to avoid contamination.i replaced a power cord on a water cooled torch today and decided to do a quick test on some 1/4 al plate.   i don't clean it, rarely do.   set the amps at 250, 1/8th tungsten, 1/8th 5356 rod.  i use a rocker switch, if no rocker switch a slider, if no slider a momentary contactor, if i don't have any of those then i might use the foot pedal.you say your welds are huge but who can tell without a picture.  here is what i ended up with.  you can compare. Attached Images
Reply:It's in my signature, Miller Syncro 200, with a pedal.I stick the pointed electrode as far into the corner as I can safely go.The arc hits the floor, or the wall.I stomp the pedal all the way (145A in this scenario, set according to the Miller calculator).The floor wets, then puddles.Nothing going on on the wall.Unless I move the electrode a little, then the arc moves to the wall.Then I get a puddle on the wall.NEVER on both at the same time.I'm holding the electrrode so close that I'm dipping it occasionally, which I seldom (almost never anymore) do on a flat or exterior (corner, edge) weld.The wall sometimes melts through, I'm putting so much heat into it while I'm trying to get the puddle to "tie into" the floor.The fillet is easily 3/8" wide if I can get it to tie into the floor and the wall, and is very irregular (no stack of dimes, which I can easily do on "exterior" welds), more of a wave that crests on the floor, then the wall, then the floor. This is because I have to swing the torch up and down, MIG style, to get the puddle to flow on both the floor and the wall.I'll try point the electrode more and bumping up the amps.Since the 1.5% lanthanated electrodes lose 1/3 of their point after a second at 145A (even with the balance turned to 10), I doubt I'll have much success with a sharper point, but I'll try it.JoeMiller Syncrowave 200Mac/Miller MW130 MIGKalamazoo bandsawCincinnati Arrow 500 VMCColchester Dominion 15 x 36 lathe with 2 axis DRO
Reply:those calculators are guides.  turn your amps up to max, since you're using a foot pedal bring the heat up till you get a puddle going,  swing the cup; wall/floor.   i don't know what your piece is sitting on but if it's steel it seems a little odd that the base is melting first.it boils down to this;  how much practice time do you have in.  don't get to scientific, just punch that pedal and get it going.  add rod, work it up and down. rinse/repeatit probably wouldn't go over to well with a lot of beginners but i would not let a new person use a pedal;  it becomes a crutch.   if i had to hire a welder and he told me he could weld but he needed to use a pedal i'd have to say move on.   anyway good luck to you.
Reply:For 1/8" I set my syncro at 150 and 7.5 or 8 on the balance.  With a 6,7, or 8 cup the ball is sticking out about 3/16".  Stick the torch in the corner and punch the pedal.  If the pieces don't immediately join, I add a dab of filler and go from there.  IF I'm doing good that day, I leave the pedal floored and beat feet.My name's not Jim....
Reply:I just had a student with similar issues. He was taking way too long to get the puddle going. Crank up the amps. 145-150 is doable and usually what I have them set the machine to, but sometimes it helps to have some more under the hood to work with, especially doing tacks. I'll often add a bit of filler just to get the two piece to bridge and as soon as that happens, both melt together well from there on. Too big a bead gives me the idea you aren't hot enough or fast enough.The student was a bit surprised I left the machine set at 180 to do 1/8" alum fillets. Since I had a pedal, it didn't really matter. I just used as much as I needed. I probably ran the whole 6" length of weld in about the same time it took him to make a mess of about 1" of material.Picts would help to see exactly what you are doing..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I meant to say about 3/32" stickout in my last post.  Not 3/16".  My bad...My name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by fdcmiamithose calculators are guides.  turn your amps up to max, since you're using a foot pedal bring the heat up till you get a puddle going,  swing the cup; wall/floor.   i don't know what your piece is sitting on but if it's steel it seems a little odd that the base is melting first.it boils down to this;  how much practice time do you have in.  don't get to scientific, just punch that pedal and get it going.  add rod, work it up and down. rinse/repeatit probably wouldn't go over to well with a lot of beginners but i would not let a new person use a pedal;  it becomes a crutch.   if i had to hire a welder and he told me he could weld but he needed to use a pedal i'd have to say move on.   anyway good luck to you.
Reply:Originally Posted by scudzukiJust out of curiosity, why would you consider the pedal a crutch? It's another factor to add to the equation as far as I'm concerned, although I tend to speed up the torch movement rather than back off the amperage if the puddle gets too hot.I'll give it another go tomorrow incorporating the advice I've gotten.Thanks to all for you insight.Joe
Reply:Originally Posted by scudzukiJust out of curiosity, why would you consider the pedal a crutch? It's another factor to add to the equation as far as I'm concerned, although I tend to speed up the torch movement rather than back off the amperage if the puddle gets too hot.I'll give it another go tomorrow incorporating the advice I've gotten.Thanks to all for you insight.Joe
Reply:yes, clayman, we are in agreement for the reasons you've listed.  if a person is going to be doing all their work inside at a bench then they can get away with just the pedal.  if you are called to do some field welding it's possible that you won't have the option of the pedal then where will you be. scratch start, lift arc, finger control?   my first heat control was "hey doug, up five" or "hey doug, down a hair", from the bar joists tacking  LE/SE SS blowpipe.   large end / small end.   the field work turned out to be good experience.
Reply:Pedal as a 'crutch' for GTAW?Nope, it's another tool to possibly let you have a little more control on what is going on.Let's you have a little more power to get the puddle started (get in and get it going fast) and then let off a little on the power as you are 'cruising along', and finally let you taper off a bit more on the power as you get to the end of the weld (where the heat from running the bead has gotten the base material hotter than you started with).Essential to use a pedal or finger control?  No, but sometimes it IS the right tool to help you control what is going on.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:To get back to the original question..I know exactly what you mean..What to do..Aim the torch at the bottom piece near the joint and let it heat up to the point of getting real shiny..Then without breaking the arc aim at the wall as you call it and let the same thing happen..shiny..Go back to the bottom piece and re-heat and go to the wall piece and get it hot again so you have 2 shiny spots at the same time..THEN add a dip between the 2 pieces and build the "Bridge" between them and then just add away..You have to get both pieces joined before you can continue..Once the parts are "one" then it's all easy after that..The pedal is NOT a crutch..It's a very important piece to your machine...If it was not needed then why do they make them?MAYBE those that think they are a crutch should learn to use one first before condemming them.....zap!Last edited by zapster; 03-05-2012 at 05:10 PM.I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRisePedal as a 'crutch' for GTAW?Nope, it's another tool to possibly let you have a little more control on what is going on.
Reply:You might try pointing your tungsten slightly opposite the way you are traveling and it might make it easier to add filler to your puddle.  Without the foot pedal you will crater at the end of the bead unless you have automatic cratering.MILLER 330 AB/PMILLER GOLD STAR 130KUBOTA BX24CASE MINI HAY PRESSBENCH MILLHYPERTHERM 45BABY HOSSFELD
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonWell, it is a tool to let you have a LOT more control.
Reply:Just a beginner still, but getting the hang of it,I've found that I have good luck Quickly running the entire joint to let the EP etch it, then forming a small puddle on both sides, then joining the 2 with filler as stated above.  Smooth sailing from there.I've also found that fillets take alot of initial power to heat up.  More than any other joint I've tried.  For 1/8" Alum, I set my machine at 175 amps and it still took a good 8-10 seconds to form puddles at 100Hz and 80%EP.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterTo get back to the original question..If it was not needed then why do they make them?...zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by claymans13Really?Are cars that park themselves made? yes, do we buy them, yes, do we need them, no. Just because something is made doesn't necessitate a need for it. There's thousands of unneeded things in the world that we buy everyday. A foot pedal is one of them, they are very nice to have, i have one and use it, but i don't need it to weld. If you cannot weld without the aid of a foot pedal you need to go back to the basics. If i had to use one word to describe a foot pedal, it would be 'luxury'. It's something that's nice to have, sorta like a 60in LED Flat screen is nice to have, but you certainly can watch tv just fine on a 30in tube tv. On the comment about learning how to use one before condemning them. I don't think myself or fdc were condemning them at all. I've stated i use one, and i'm sure he does too. But i will say that learning how to do all my joints on all the different material without having a pedal without a doubt made me a better welder with a pedal, and if i happen to go in a shop that has an old machine without one, i can still lay down a nice bead.This wasn't directed at you Zap, i'm sure you can weld without a pedal. I'm just saying that the average person doesn't actually NEED it. If you're doing aerospace stuff then i'm sure there is a need for them. But hundreds of thousands of xray quality welds are produced in the field without a foot pedal. Just someone saying 'its hot' and someone belting the reply 'go faster!'.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterTo get back to the original question..I know exactly what you mean..What to do..Aim the torch at the bottom piece near the joint and let it heat up to the point of getting real shiny..Then without breaking the arc aim at the wall as you call it and let the same thing happen..shiny..Go back to the bottom piece and re-heat and go to the wall piece and get it hot again so you have 2 shiny spots at the same time..THEN add a dip between the 2 pieces and build the "Bridge" between them and then just add away..You have to get both pieces joined before you can continue..Once the parts are "one" then it's all easy after that..The pedal is NOT a crutch..It's a very important piece to your machine...If it was not needed then why do they make them?MAYBE those that think they are a crutch should learn to use one first before condemming them.....zap!
Reply:This is .125 square tubingThis is .125 at the bottom joined to .060TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:With the .125 to .060, I had to heat the $hit out of the .125, then wash the bead up onto the .060.  You kinda just get it at some point.  I still have a ton to learn and don't consider myself good at all yet.  I find the more I do it, the more I just wanna keep my machine turned up to 200 and use the pedal all the way.  I get to the point where the metal is key holing to insure full penetration.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 MagnumCorrection,  I don't generally see key holing on this type of joint.  The .060 tubing is 3/4 by 3/4 inch and the bead is about 3/16" wide.  That joint happens to not be weight bearing, so I didn't wrap the bead around the joint.  As you can tell, I still need a ton of practice.You also have a Synchro, so it's gonna be a little tougher for you because you are stuck at 60 Hz.  Turning up the frequency helps get the arc into the joint.Last edited by Drf255; 03-06-2012 at 05:24 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:The pedal issue may be more fitting for another thread but those who believe it to be a crutch are either inexperienced or ignorant. Its necessary during many instances and when you are in a tight position upside down or against a wall with a mirror, the pedal is the last thing I want to mess around with. It actually takes more skill than you think to be in a bad spot and operate.UA Local 598
Reply:Never looked at a pedal (remote control) as a crutch, but rather a tool to enhance the performance of the machine.Is an on/off button a "crutch"  when bump welding anodized aluminum?  No.  It's an essential tool necessary to accomplish a task.  I want to see someone weld anodized aluminum without remote control of the power source.Calling a foot pedal a "crutch", tells me that that poster is satisfied with less than optimal results.  Tig welding is largely about "heat control" and speed of movement/filler addition can carry you only so far.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:i am sure you are trying to take a position here but for the life of me i cannot decide which side of the argument you are on but i'll leave that up to you.i can see now that the word 'crutch' was probably a bad choice given the connotation it conveys and i hereby issue a formal retraction of its usage and in its place i would like the reader to fill in the blank.  there.i have followed the thread about the countertop repair and just got the latest update from SD;  two points, if i had been on that job and had to do that repair i would have first determined the thickness of the metal then i would have gone and run out the hoses of my oxy/acetylene torch... just kidding.   i would have done it as described.   i would have known the tungsten i needed, approximate amperage within a few amps, i would have tacked it the same and i would have taken some of my .035 ss mig wire off a spool and used it.   this is know from the experience of not using a foot pedal;  incidentally i have two of them and use them both.however, before i did anything i would have run a test on a scrap piece,  i would have approached it like this because there have been many times when i had to do this with lift arc or scratch start as have many other's i'm sure.ok, feel better now.   so, what point were you trying to make?  reads like an obama speech.
Reply:ok, for the sake of harmony the post i just sent out was directed at the boilermaker.yes, i also have fingertip controls, i have several kinds and i use them all the time, i have made this plain in a previous post.   the point i was trying to make and which has become distorted through the evolution of this thread was basically illustrated by the boilermaker above;   if he was capable of working without the pedal he could have used an alternative method (any one of several) rather than suffering as he seems to be while trying to finish his welding with the foot appendage, aka pedal.
Reply:Okay, back on topic again, cranked 'er up to 180A and mashed the pedal.Added a little dab 'o filler and then I could run a bead right in the corner.I can't see how I could have done it without the pedal, though. As soon as I got it hot enough to add some filler I had to back it off or the entire peice would have collapsed. Not sure what the technique is without some means of adjusting the amps on the fly, there's no way I could move fast enough to use up all the heat I needed to start the puddle.Rookie.JoeMiller Syncrowave 200Mac/Miller MW130 MIGKalamazoo bandsawCincinnati Arrow 500 VMCColchester Dominion 15 x 36 lathe with 2 axis DRO
Reply:try to increase electrode stickout..
Reply:I got a little more time to practice welding a fillet today.3/16 material, 200A, 15 CFH, 3/32 tungsten and filler.Gotta work on reading the puddle better but I'm getting the hang of it.Figured out part of my problem, my 'dips" were not long enough, turns out welding fillets uses a LOT of filler.I'm gonna need a 10 lb box of filler next order.JoeMiller Syncrowave 200Mac/Miller MW130 MIGKalamazoo bandsawCincinnati Arrow 500 VMCColchester Dominion 15 x 36 lathe with 2 axis DRO
Reply:it seems that the initial heat before the first dab of filler is the hardest part.  I am usualy set at about 170A and use about 70-90 % pedal for about 3 to 4 secconds- then back off a little for 2 or 3 more sec- then I usualy see both faces having some liquid on the surface- then a very quick dab to connect.   Then let it cool for 10 or 20 secconds.   Then when you start again - try to heat the front junction where the dab and the work meet.  When you see the front of the dab and the work run together - put another dab there and and start your repetative dipping for your bead.   Once you get a good , clean, small first bead -you've one the hard part ( I think) .    Might try using a smaller cup and see if that helps any.PSI suspect that if you floor the pedal for a few secconds- i suspect that even though you may be on only one face where the arc is going- the reflected heat may be enough to heat both sides even if one side may have a slightly bigger puddle diammeter....Last edited by jethro; 03-18-2012 at 02:59 AM.