Having a hard time with 6010

admin

Hello everyone!    this is my first post here and i'm really scared (!) to start this conversation due to the fact that i've seen some mega-posts here and obviously i'm dealing with pros... so my questions can be trivial for some of you guys... i passed my first course of SMAW training by learning 1F, 2F, 3F welding positions using 6013. and now i'm on the second training course which includes: 1G, 2G, 3G welding positions using 6010 as a root pass and 7018 as a filler and cap pass. but 6010 handles extremely difficult. there's no puddle to watch, it consumes so fast, the looks of the weld is awful, slags won't be removed easily and generally, it's a nightmare to deal with.currently i'm workin on 3G root pass and after 7 (each one 2 hours) sessions here's the result... (Attached Photos)my trainer taught me the step-motion. create a key hole and fill it in. watch the both sides move steadily and leave no hole. i did that but the result is not so good.i would appreciate it if someone give me a thorough description of every details you need to know to handle 6010 appropriately. any suggestions would be appreciated. and another question: why there's no video guide on the web, describing how to use 6010 for a root pass in V-Bevel open butt? did other welders find it difficult to use it? one of my friends said because of the lack of professional 6010 root pass welders,they use 7018 instead as a root pass. it mean that root pass, filler pass and the cap pass are all done by 7018.. is this true?  Thanks in advance guys... Attached Images
Reply:im assuming your welding vertical up? It also looks like your not putting bevels on those plates your making a makeshift practice groove.Also i have ran a root pass with 7018 but it sucks and the only advantage is a low hydrogen weld.      Your 6010 downhill is how pipelines are welded here in that states. It looks like your whip up is way to far and ur not staying to fill it in. Is there even a root opening in that?Last edited by oznation; 05-03-2012 at 03:49 PM.Reason: more info
Reply:Take some 1/2" plate and put a 22.5* bevel on each side so you have a total included angle of 45*. Then I don't know what size rod your using but I would put about a 1/32"-1/16" landing on the sharpest edge of the beveled pieces. Then set the gap to 1/16" and keep your rod perpendicular to the plate and keep the arc very short. (rod burried) into the groove and use a small whipping motion up out of the puddle then right back down into the puddle. Not much though just enough to keep it from blowing big holes in the plate. You could also try using an inverted "T" so go up then back down and side to side. Then repeat. As stated earlier downhill 6010 is how we run our beads in on the firing line. Much faster and for me personally much easier. Also with the low-hy rod runnin a bead is much more difficult with that than with 6010.1973 Lincoln SA 200, Already replaced shunt coils, Idle board (SOLD)1984 Miller Dialarc 250HF, Miller water cooler, 250 AMP water cooled torch, you know the worx.
Reply:Hello ROOkie, open root E6010 for a beginner is certainly a hand-ful. Keep in mind the basics of how this rod operates: there are no additional fillers that come from the rod other than the core wire itself, the flux system on this rod is there to aid with protection of the weld pool from contamination, deep-penetration, arc stability, and a fast freeze puddle. Then consider the characteristics of the power source itself, CC/VV means that for the most part the current will stay relatively static(the same), the voltage will vary with arc length, longer arc length, higher voltage, more heat. Shorter arc length, lower voltage, lesser heat.This can be your friend as you are working with an open-root fit-up. When you encounter a spot that is tight use the longer arc to help to open it up and allow it to penetrate, when you have a wide gap, shorten the arc length and keep it tight to help to keep from opening the keyhole up excessively. Listen to the sound of the weld as it progresses, you will likely be able to hear the arc on the opposite side of the groove as it penetrates. If you cannot hear this sound you are likely bridging the gap without penetrating through it. If you don't know how to tell the difference, try running with a wide gap and keeping the rod buried into it. Then run a bead on the plate itself with no groove or gap, you will be able to tell the difference. There are a number of techniques that people use for welding these sorts of grooves. Some will pay real close attention to making a consistent fit-up and when they weld it they bury the tip of the rod into the groove and run enough heat that it will allow them to use a slight drag angle and drag the electrode along. If this is dialed-in correctly it will provide a very nice degree of penetration and even tie-ins between the two sides of joint as the root pass is made. Others might long-arc slightly at the start of a pass to open up a keyhole and then push the rod in close to fill and penetrate and then use a type of pause and whip to continue to fill and penetrate the root. Another technique that comes to mind right now encompasses starting the bead by long arcing slightly, then bringing it in and back to bridge and fill and when the whip is made it provides for burying the rod into the groove and then stepping back and up to deposit back on the previous pause. Repeating this technique can, for some, provide a nice amount of penetration and tie-in and also yield an even fill concerning the root pass face. Listen closely to the suggestions of others here on the forum and elsewhere and experiment and try some of these techniques to see which one or combination of them are easiest and provide the greatest level of proficiency for you. Not everyone will be the most comfortable with a specific style or technique. When you are attempting restarts there are many different techniques that might be employed. Relatively common, use of a thin-disc and grinding the starts/stops or stops to a feather edge is one way. Others might simply run enough amperage and long arc enough to make an acceptable tie-in or restart. Good luck and best regards, AllanLast edited by aevald; 05-03-2012 at 04:53 PM.aevald
Reply:you state"theres no puddle towatch""and theres yer problem. you have to learn to see it. try shortarcing and you will see an orange puddle develop..move away for a second and it will freeze..then go back and drop another dime on top of the last one.there are gaps in your bead because when you whip away to let the puddle freeze you dont know where the frozen puddle is ,  is so you dont come back to the right spot to make the next one..hope thats make some sense...keep at it..6010 is yer friend..think  " dime....dime....dime...."
Reply:I'm assuming you are doing the whip and pause technique for the open root? If not, then that is your problem. Try a lose 3/32 gap with no landing at about 76amps. I just did a 3G Cert. today and the root pass turned out supremo. I could be wrong, but I think a 7018 root pass is usually for a butt joint with a backer strip.
Reply:No 7018 can and is used everyday in refineries and such for the bead hot fill and cap passes on pipe in all positions with open root no backing plate.1973 Lincoln SA 200, Already replaced shunt coils, Idle board (SOLD)1984 Miller Dialarc 250HF, Miller water cooler, 250 AMP water cooled torch, you know the worx.
Reply:ok i was wrong lol. Ill have to try it sometime.
Reply:Trust me it's a lot harder than one would think especially if you've grown accustomed to the smooth burning characteristics of 7018.1973 Lincoln SA 200, Already replaced shunt coils, Idle board (SOLD)1984 Miller Dialarc 250HF, Miller water cooler, 250 AMP water cooled torch, you know the worx.
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello ROOkie, open root E6010 for a beginner is certainly a hand-ful. Keep in mind the basics of how this rod operates: there are no additional fillers that come from the rod other than the core wire itself, the flux system on this rod is there to aid with protection of the weld pool from contamination, deep-penetration, arc stability, and a fast freeze puddle. Then consider the characteristics of the power source itself, CC/VV means that for the most part the current will stay relatively static(the same), the voltage will vary with arc length, longer arc length, higher voltage, more heat. Shorter arc length, lower voltage, lesser heat.This can be your friend as you are working with an open-root fit-up. When you encounter a spot that is tight use the longer arc to help to open it up and allow it to penetrate, when you have a wide gap, shorten the arc length and keep it tight to help to keep from opening the keyhole up excessively. Listen to the sound of the weld as it progresses, you will likely be able to hear the arc on the opposite side of the groove as it penetrates. If you cannot hear this sound you are likely bridging the gap without penetrating through it. If you don't know how to tell the difference, try running with a wide gap and keeping the rod buried into it. Then run a bead on the plate itself with no groove or gap, you will be able to tell the difference. There are a number of techniques that people use for welding these sorts of grooves. Some will pay real close attention to making a consistent fit-up and when they weld it they bury the tip of the rod into the groove and run enough heat that it will allow them to use a slight drag angle and drag the electrode along. If this is dialed-in correctly it will provide a very nice degree of penetration and even tie-ins between the two sides of joint as the root pass is made. Others might long-arc slightly at the start of a pass to open up a keyhole and then push the rod in close to fill and penetrate and then use a type of pause and whip to continue to fill and penetrate the root. Another technique that comes to mind right now encompasses starting the bead by long arcing slightly, then bringing it in and back to bridge and fill and when the whip is made it provides for burying the rod into the groove and then stepping back and up to deposit back on the previous pause. Repeating this technique can, for some, provide a nice amount of penetration and tie-in and also yield an even fill concerning the root pass face. Listen closely to the suggestions of others here on the forum and elsewhere and experiment and try some of these techniques to see which one or combination of them are easiest and provide the greatest level of proficiency for you. Not everyone will be the most comfortable with a specific style or technique. When you are attempting restarts there are many different techniques that might be employed. Relatively common, use of a thin-disc and grinding the starts/stops or stops to a feather edge is one way. Others might simply run enough amperage and long arc enough to make an acceptable tie-in or restart. Good luck and best regards, Allan
Reply:Originally Posted by TuscanyTake some 1/2" plate and put a 22.5* bevel on each side so you have a total included angle of 45*. Then I don't know what size rod your using but I would put about a 1/32"-1/16" landing on the sharpest edge of the beveled pieces. Then set the gap to 1/16" and keep your rod perpendicular to the plate and keep the arc very short. (rod burried) into the groove and use a small whipping motion up out of the puddle then right back down into the puddle. Not much though just enough to keep it from blowing big holes in the plate. You could also try using an inverted "T" so go up then back down and side to side. Then repeat. As stated earlier downhill 6010 is how we run our beads in on the firing line. Much faster and for me personally much easier. Also with the low-hy rod runnin a bead is much more difficult with that than with 6010.
Reply:You mentioned that there's no puddle to see; any chance you're not seeing it well because the shade is too light, or perhaps too dark (or too dirty/pockmarked)? If you're close to the instructor while he's welding, can you see what is happening then? If so, what is different when you're welding?  Have you tried looking not just where the arc is, but behind, where it had been, to see how the metal is behaving as it cools? Or trying to understand/duplicate the timing, the speed of movement and lengths of pauses, when he's doing it?As I think others have stated, don't just try doing the same thing over and over; try varying parameters to see what effect each has, giving particular attention to the previous suggestions.
Reply:Hi everybody!first of all, i wanted to thank everybody for helping me out. after spending two more sessions, here's the result.my instructor pointed out some of my mistakes. most important one --> Having CONVEX BEAD in spots that i indicated (2nd and 3rd one). (of course it's not really a CONVEX BEAD, it's just overlapping of two beads and i don't know the technical name of it.). He blamed me for stopping too soon and not continue all the way along. but the problem was: i couldn't see the root. yo know, i use STEP-MOTION just because it gives me the opportunity to see the root for a good penetration. but the problem was: the root gap was fewer than 1.5 mm (i'm using 2.5 mm rod) and i found it extremely difficult to create the key hole in such a tight gap and try to have my own step-motion. so the question are:a) how can i weld a tight gap and have a good penetration at the same time?b) how can i start from the very finishing spot of the previous weld bead and not leave an overlap?of course he gave me a tip: grind the finishing edge of the bead and shape it like a concave Nail.(yes, the nails of your fingers.) and start from the bottom of the nail and go up. but he also said most of the inspectors won't let you do this. they force you to start from the finishing part of the previous bead and go on.--> i must state that i'm going uphill. ( one of the fellas ask me whether i'm going uphill or downhill.. this is just absurd... in projects you always go uphill. no downhill at all) and also, naming my other mistakes would be appreciated...thanks everybody... Attached Images
Reply:As I stated earlier a lot of pipeline is run all downhill. No uphill at all. When we run out our welds we downhill the root hot pass fill and cap. All is done in a downhill progression. As for the stop and restart inspectors for the most part will let you grind and wire wheel each pass as well as stops and restarts. It all depends on the code to which your certifying to. It does help to feather the stop then strike your arc below the stop and get your rod burning good then run it up to the spot where you will be tying into. With the ip (incomplete penetration) on the root where it's not tying in good because your gap is too tight. Try turning your machine up 5 amps at a time and keep that rod stuck into the groove tight and perpindicular to the plate until it burns in there. Trust me it will burn in there if you get it hot enough and get your rod angle right. Also try taking those plates your welding on and put a bevel on them and prepare it the way I stated earlier instead of trying to use a makeshift v-groove. It will help a lot.1973 Lincoln SA 200, Already replaced shunt coils, Idle board (SOLD)1984 Miller Dialarc 250HF, Miller water cooler, 250 AMP water cooled torch, you know the worx.
Reply:6010 will run both ways down and up, I personally don't like up, I can do it if its required but I find it a lot harder to do than down. Also 6010 is an ocsillating rod, looking at your bed your oscillation pattern needs work, look in your welding book it will show about 8-10 ways to oscillate, J's, reverse J's, one that looks like a cross, round circles, a figure 8, and a couple of variations on these. Try them all, my best way to describe it to a beginner is its like a dance step and has a rythm, I can do all of them, but there are a couple I don't like, but thats for you to figure out which ones work best for you, me I like the j's left and right, figure 8's, and circles. when you get it right your bead will look like a roll of neatly stacked dimesBecause your not beveling ( 22.5 degrees listed above ) you are also adding problems,1: no clear edge to follow. 2. your material looks like it was torch cut and no prep ( grinding ) was done.Are you trying to simulate a pipe open root weld in flat plate? If so thats not they way to do it, use two flate plates 1/2-3/4 inch thick plate, bevel cut at 22.5 degrees.  grind a land about the thickness of a dime. Take the beveled sides lay them down, SPACE ( important ) the two plates apart ( a nickle or very slightly more ) apart and tack them in place on the ends and one in the middle ( on a 7 inch test plate ). This all prep work before you start welding. Start at the top welding down, when you get it right you will hear a whoosh, or almost a jet engine sound, and it eats up rod, feed the rod hard.But before you even try that, start with a flat plate, and work on your oscillation patterns and get a good bead, cause if you can't do that your not going vertical.
Reply:+1^ minus the oscillation on the bead going downhill. Especially on pipe you jam that rod in there perpindicular to the pipe and just let her ride running down the side. Uphill on the other hand yes oscillate a little to let the weld puddle cool some and freeze as well as let it tie into the sides and flatten out. Then come back into it and do it again. One thing I was taught when learning how to weld is that you can tell what is going on wih your weld by listening to it almost as well as if your looking at it. Learn to listen to the arc and listen to that swoosh of arc blowing out the back side. If you don't hear it then your not burning through and tying into the sides, but rather fusing the 2 pieces together on top of the groove instead of all the way through it. Also if your instructor is teaching you to setup an open root v-groove by using an open corner fillet joint. Do yourself a favor and smack him. Listen to us when we tell you that 90% of this test is the fit up and the other 10% is welder ability. If you get a good fit up with a properly prepared workpiece this will greatly improve your weld quality as well as help you get the hang of it.1973 Lincoln SA 200, Already replaced shunt coils, Idle board (SOLD)1984 Miller Dialarc 250HF, Miller water cooler, 250 AMP water cooled torch, you know the worx.
Reply:" One thing I was taught when learning how to weld is that you can tell what is going on wih your weld by listening to it almost as well as if your looking at it. Learn to listen to the arc and listen to that swoosh of arc blowing out the back side. If you don't hear it then your not burning through and tying into the sides, but rather fusing the 2 pieces together on top of the groove instead of all the way through it. "Bingo The magic duck comes down and your do win the $64And flat plate is good way to learn, you can flip it over and see your weld which is the side thats important on a root. The top sde will get a hot pass and you will oscillate slightly on that." Listen to us when we tell you that 90% of this test is the fit up and the other 10% is welder ability"To repeat, very important take notes.Another comment of yours;" 6010 handles extremely difficult. there's no puddle to watch, it consumes so fast, the looks of the weld is awful, slags won't be removed easily .Are you using a hand wire brush to clean up your welds? Why ? You are allowed grinder on the test, because a light grinder pass or a wire wheel after the root and the hot pass should be done.I also like 6010, its on of my favorite rods. Are your using 5P+ ? 5P is harder to clean slag up, and its tractor rod not anybodies favorite on pipe,  5p+ or 6P+ is what you should be using.
Reply:" +1^ minus the oscillation on the bead going downhill " Right oscillation happens on the hot pass, no room to move on the root.
Reply:I used to hate 6010. That was until I got the hang of running it. You can do so much with 6010 it still amazes me. That is if you know what your doing with it lol. Running a bead in with 5p+ downhill is amazing I love the simplicity of how easy it really is. Strike your arc watch your rod angle and keep her dug in there and one hand it all the way down. Before I ever burned a bead in downhill I struggled at first with 6010 running uphill and to be honest I still have my bad days running it uphill. But it just seems that with downhill you get a perfect bead in almost every time.1973 Lincoln SA 200, Already replaced shunt coils, Idle board (SOLD)1984 Miller Dialarc 250HF, Miller water cooler, 250 AMP water cooled torch, you know the worx.
Reply:Thanks People! GREAT advices...and dear " Tuscany "! you have my special thanks...
Reply:Originally Posted by oznationim assuming your welding vertical up? It also looks like your not putting bevels on those plates your making a makeshift practice groove.Also i have ran a root pass with 7018 but it sucks and the only advantage is a low hydrogen weld.      Your 6010 downhill is how pipelines are welded here in that states. It looks like your whip up is way to far and ur not staying to fill it in. Is there even a root opening in that?
Reply:Originally Posted by expatweldercare to explain to me what a "low hydrogen weld" is?