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This is an unexpectedly positive result from something most people said would be a waste of time.I started out trying to correct the power factor of my small portable 110 volt machines to make them more generator and long extension cord friendly. The math behind pf correction supported my hypothesis, turning it into theory.I also proved utility meters read volt-amps.I figured I would need at least 30uf of capacitors to bring the power factor above 0.9 and I was correct.Basically I have rough power factor corrected my mig machine from 0.7 to 0.92 at full load using three 10uf 200v metalized film capacitors installed on a terminal board. Using the same settings as before the cap install when I installed my caps and tested it I noticed the machine was drawing 150 to 200 more watts on the input side and putting out 10 more amps on the welding output side.That was unexpected and I am not complaining at all. To finish the pf correction portion I am going to install a 4th 10uf cap or a few 2.2uf metalized film caps I have coming in the mail to get the power factor up around .95 or .96Each 10uf metalized film cap cost me $10. The terminal board, $6.Then the other day I was doing some testing on my mig with my fluke325 amp clamp and tested for AC current in the ground lead (yes this is a DC only machine) to get an idea how rough the DC welding current is. To my surprise I got a 50 amp reading. I expected much lower. So I rigged in a 100,000uf 40vdc capactor I poached from a broken battery charger, to help the 60,000uf factory cap, mostly just to see what would happen. To my suprize it boosed output another 10 amps and raised input power accordingly. So I mounted the cap perminantly on top of the machine.My mig went from putting out 90 to 95 amps to 110 to 120 amps. Not bad.True power input is up from about 1500watts to around 1900w.I am going to adjust power out put back down to 85 to 95 amps since it does what I want at 90 amps.Also noticed arc volts have gone from 20v down to 16v.I can also apply this to air compressors, mine run a pretty sorry 0.4 to 0.7 power factor and I use a lot more power running them then I do running welders.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:I'm no electrical guru, but to my knowledge adding capacitors to mig welders do not add power. They act as a filter to give you a smoother arc, and don't add any power.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI'm no electrical guru, but to my knowledge adding capacitors to mig welders do not add power. They act as a filter to give you a smoother arc, and don't add any power.
Reply:My equipment doesnt lie and it is unbiased. Thats why I said the result was unexpected.Would a smoother arc not allow more current to flow through the welding circuit?The capacitor smoths out current before it gets to the inductor, plusing power through the inductor slows current by constanly expanding and shrinking the magnetic field, I believe the term is hysteresis, think of it as magnetic inertia. More weld power is just a byproduct of sending smoother DC through the inductor.There are 2 completely different processes going on with these different capacitors helping my mig.The small high voltage caps are just correcting power factor, this is pretty complicated, and will help any inductive load, welders, motors and so on. Putting another big low volt cap on the output is a lot more simple and you cant screw it up, as long as you use a high enough volt capacitor and hookup the + and - correcrly.Last edited by mad welder 4; 03-21-2014 at 11:45 PM.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:I have always read that adding the caps to increase the power ends up pulling a lot more kilowatts from the power company. In other words, unless you need the higher amps, you are wasting money using the PF caps.Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:Originally Posted by mad welder 4My mig went from putting out 90 to 95 amps to 110 to 120 amps. Not bad.True power input is up from about 1500watts to around 1900w.I am going to adjust power out put back down to 85 to 95 amps since it does what I want at 90 amps.Also noticed arc volts have gone from 20v down to 16v..
Reply:Originally Posted by mad welder 4Also noticed arc volts have gone from 20v down to 16v.
Reply:He seemed to think he was getting much more power from his than he really was as well form his buzzbox.The pfc may give him an extra volt or two on the output side but he will more than lose it with the large capacitors.Last edited by kald; 03-22-2014 at 03:35 AM.Idealarc 250AC 225SVictor OA-older made in USA stuff.And a crap ton of other stuff.
Reply:mad-welder-4Good work - The sooner we can bring down Lincoln and Miller's engineering largess, the better-off all welders will be.I have forwarded your test-results: to NEMA and UL, so they can popularize your findings.The flaw / the fluke - is Fluke's inherent read of exact - and Flukes are not exact. An engineering/design/manufacturing 'read' requires the definition of a Fluke the size of a refrigerator - to read - nascent impulse >.Kudos for your electrical 'depth & inquiry', but in application, you are only hot-wiring a car, and prepping for systemic failure.Opus
Reply:Fluke ? as in Gyrodactylus salaris ? I'm your man. Talk to me ?Electron microscope. Dept of pathology. Johannesburg 2004 Japanese koi gill biopsy, fluke infestation.EDIT : Hows THAT for crashing a thread Last edited by Burpee; 03-22-2014 at 06:09 AM.Reason: OFF TOPIC.hahahaha BURPBubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Ah over my head. EASIEST, buy a MILLER 211, 120 / 230 volts ! Just plug in.
Reply:Originally Posted by BurpeeFluke ? as in Gyrodactylus salaris ? I'm your man. Talk to me ?Electron microscope. Dept of pathology. Johannesburg 2004 Japanese koi gill biopsy, fluke infestation.EDIT : Hows THAT for crashing a thread
Reply:Originally Posted by DougAustinTXI have always read that adding the caps to increase the power ends up pulling a lot more kilowatts from the power company. In other words, unless you need the higher amps, you are wasting money using the PF caps.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'm glad you are having fun with your electronics projects. Have you considered ham radio? Because you don't seem to understand welding.Mig is a constant voltage process. Amps vary due to several factors. I'm not sure why manufacturers rate migs in "amps". It does make for a convenient way to compare units, but you don't set amps, you set volts. Amps vary by changing things like stick out.Dropping from 20v down to 16v is turning DOWN the power on the machine, not up. If you wanted to make a mig "hotter" you find a way to increase the voltage, not decrease it.While you may be able to tweak a small cheap 90 "amp" rated mig up a bit to match some of the bigger 140 "amp" class 110v migs, I seriously doubt you'll make any significant improvements past that. It's not just a cost factor either. Even with inverter based units that are much more efficient at power usage, manufacturers aren't getting gains much past those numbers. You simply can't create power that isn't there.I never understood why someone would buy the cheapest POS in the world, then try and turn it into a 3nd rate Ferrari. You can spend all the time and money in the world on the project, but it's not going to change reality. If you enjoy playing with electronics, good for you, have at it.
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROmad-welder-4Good work - The sooner we can bring down Lincoln and Miller's engineering largess, the better-off all welders will be.I have forwarded your test-results: to NEMA and UL, so they can popularize your findings.The flaw / the fluke - is Fluke's inherent read of exact - and Flukes are not exact. An engineering/design/manufacturing 'read' requires the definition of a Fluke the size of a refrigerator - to read - nascent impulse >.Kudos for your electrical 'depth & inquiry', but in application, you are only hot-wiring a car, and prepping for systemic failure.Opus
Reply:I'm at a loss to understand the bad vibes aimed towards mad welder in this thread. Nothing wrong with experimentation.I don't think the increase in amps, with the decrease in volts, is an increase in overall power, based on heat input, in Joules - as I noted above.http://files.aws.org/wj/2010/06/wj201006/wj0610-61.pdfBut no harm in trying.If manufacturers always made their products as robust as possible, aftermarket hot rod parts companies like Jegs and Edlebrock wouldn't exist. Mad welder is following the same style of thinking - experiment and test results.Maybe a little more can be wrung out of little machines - up to the theoretical output limit based on the input.Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 03-22-2014 at 10:17 AM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI find your electrical experimentation very interesting and I'm glad you post them up.I have a question based on weld calculations for heat input where the numerator is (Voltage × Amperage × 60) all divided by Travel Speed (in./min or mm/min).95 amps at 20 volts = 1900 watts120 amps at 16 volts = 1920 wattsBased on the heat input it does not seem there has been much of a measurable change?http://files.aws.org/wj/2010/06/wj201006/wj0610-61.pdf
Reply:Originally Posted by pin2hotThink of two loggers with a 2-man crosscut saw. One is Ole Amps, the other Sven Volts. If Sven and Ole are not in sync with each other, they are wasting energy. Adding a cap will help get Sven and Ole working more as a team and wasting less energy. I'm giving myself a headache trying to think of this stuff. Time for a beer. Good evening everyone.
Reply:Originally Posted by 59halfstepCouldn't you just get Lena to kick Ole in the a$$ to get him back in sync with Sven and working as a team?Uff da
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI'm at a loss to understand the bad vibes aimed towards mad welder in this thread. Nothing wrong with experimentation.
Reply:Originally Posted by mad welder 4So when I was running 0.025 wire and had 21 to 23 arc volts and was putting out 65 to 70 amps it had more welding power?Using that logic I should switch back to thinner wire.I didnt realize a $500 machine bought new in 2004 would be considered the cheapest pos in the world.So what you are saying is I should have bought a pos that costs 4 to 5 times as much, is amost impossible to move around, is the size of a small clothes dryer and can weld half inch steel. When I needed portability, mobility, small foot print and rarely weld heavier than 1/4 inch steel.I use a 250 serries millers. I know what they are capable of and came to the conclusion that I dont need anything that big.
Reply:Originally Posted by mad welder 4My mig went from putting out 90 to 95 amps to 110 to 120 amps. Not bad.True power input is up from about 1500watts to around 1900w.
Reply:Originally Posted by 59halfstepCouldn't you just get Lena to kick Ole in the a$$ to get him back in sync with Sven and working as a team?Uff da
Reply:Originally Posted by pin2hotmad welder,What machine are you applying this to? In your other power factor thread, you mentioned, This seems considerably larger than the mig mentioned in this thread.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWire size, volts and amps are all interconnected. Each wire size has it's own max voltage that it will carry. In many cases by dropping down a wire size, you can run more volts ( within the wires rating) and run a higher wire speed, and thus get more output. Amps is controlled partially by wire speed. The faster the wire, the more amps you get for a given voltage ( assuming stick out remains the same). So for a given voltage, dropping to say .023 wire and upping your wire speed compared to the wire speed needed for the same amount of wire using .030 wire, you end up with a hotter weld. It takes less power to melt the wire, and you get more power in the material. There's a reason why the plotted points are called amp/volt curves. The relationship of these two is not linear and is complicated by things like wire size and gas type. Lincolns "bible" goes into these relationships in a fair amount of detail IIRC.As far as welding 1/4", you won't find a 110v mig that will do that job acceptably. You just don't have the power available. You don't need a unit the size of a washing machine to do 1/4". You need a 230v machine that's about the same size as those 110v units. Difference is, it starts out with almost 2-3 times the input power to work with. Even those 230v "180 amp" class migs max out at 1/4". Just making two pieces off metal stick together does not make a weld. That's often the difference between hobbyists and pros. A pro can spot when you have good fusion in a weld. All a hobbyist sees is a "pretty" bead and the metal didn't fall apart when they were done. We aren't talking about the same thing.You are not going to reinvent the wheel here. If you could double the output capability of a 110v mig with a few dollars worth of parts, you can bet one of the big manufacturers with a boat load of electrical engineers on staff would have found a way to do so and market it by now. A true 1/4" capable 110v mig that could be run off a 20 amp standard outlet would be a game changer in the industry. Pretty much the way inverter units changed the industry when units like the Dynasty and Maxstars came out and allowed big gains in output on 110v power with tig and stick. However with mig, we are talking about needing twice the input power on a transformer based machine. That's what it takes to get a 230v "180 amp" mig to accomplish the task.The advantages you might add, probably only apply to the lower end units where they cut some things to maintain a price point. You get a rougher arc or a bit less duty cycle in exchange for a less expensive unit. This is why guys who do HF mods can see a "gain" in performance. They have added the caps and so on that were left out of the unit to help maintain that rock bottom price. However you still won't go past the limits imposed by 110v input power.I could care less if you want to do this, but your logic is flawed. You aren't increasing the output by dropping the volts. And no matter what you do, you simply are not going to get past the limits on transformer based migs imposed by a limited input power on 110v circuits.Correcting the power factor is simply adjusting the impedance of a circuit to match the impedance of another. This helps reduce the loses from the mismatch and make the circuit more efficient. Even Lincoln and Miller transformer welders would suffer from this to some degree as the engineers can not know the impedance of you residential power system before they design the welder. They choose a good enough match rather than an exact match for economic reasons. If "mad welder 4" wishes to experiment in this area whats the big deal? I found it interesting. There are alot of very creative people on this forum who re-purpose other tools and they get nothing but praise. I fail to see how this is any different. In fact I think that there many people here who have small welder that could benefit from his work. tinker on brother!brad
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI'm at a loss to understand the bad vibes aimed towards mad welder in this thread. Nothing wrong with experimentation.I don't think the increase in amps, with the decrease in volts, is an increase in overall power, based on heat input, in Joules - as I noted above.http://files.aws.org/wj/2010/06/wj201006/wj0610-61.pdfBut no harm in trying.If manufacturers always made their products as robust as possible, aftermarket hot rod parts companies like Jegs and Edlebrock wouldn't exist. Mad welder is following the same style of thinking - experiment and test results.Maybe a little more can be wrung out of little machines - up to the theoretical output limit based on the input.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Kind of a futile experiment to wring out mo' power from the SP- 135 T- ever notice how the duty cycle takes a crap when you crank up these little 120v machines? Modding it to run "smoother", I guess. Never had a problem running mine on a generator rated to handle the load.
Reply:I'm sorry but the critics are wrong. There's a lot of manufacturers that put pfc in their mig welders to boost the power output. PFC's improve the efficiency of the welder with phase correction. If you improve the efficiency of the unit, you are WILL get more power out of the business end of the welder. And you will do it NOT by trading volts for amps.Yes it's still a 110 mig, but it's now a 110 mig that more closely matches output to the input. Absolutely nothing wrong with it, and a great idea if you know how to wire it up and what size capacitors to use (I don't).Criminy!Kudos to mad welder.
Reply:My generators in question are an old Coleman 1900w that wont run this machine very well. I am looking for any improvement, only as a proof of concept. That generator is too small and its already sold, my friend is going to pick it up next time they are in town.Its going to be ran on my 7kw generac, along with an air compressor (I have 2 gasoline powered air compressors but why run 2 engines if you dont have to?)Now I dont know what the welding volts were. My 50v digital voltage display fried about 7 seconds after I connected it to the out put lugs and pulled the trigger.Volts at the capacitor went down after I put the larger battery chatger capacitor on, actual volts between the inductor and the gun and ground while welding, I dont know. Since it toasted that little digital meter I am not going to put something more expensive on there and risk the same thing happening.Last edited by mad welder 4; 03-22-2014 at 05:16 PM.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:It will be pretty hard to tell what is happening without using a load bank.Measuring anything with an inductor arcing makes most readings theoretical at best.
Reply:Interesting experiments. Never thought about this when it comes to welders, if I ever start using electricity for welding I might have some experiments to do myself. (For now, O/A works fine - no generator related issues anyway. )
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI'm at a loss to understand the bad vibes aimed towards mad welder in this thread. Nothing wrong with experimentation.
Reply:Originally Posted by kaldAbsolutely nothing wrong with experimentation and tweaking. I certainly do it with all of my gear and almost every piece of machinery I repair but his "findings" are inaccurate and misleading. Just look at the title of the thread. As you and DSW pointed out and as I point out in his other thread the amperage increase is coming at the expense of output voltage. Thus the output power/wattage of his machine is effectively the same and probably much less usable.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-sonInteresting experiments. Never thought about this when it comes to welders, if I ever start using electricity for welding I might have some experiments to do myself. (For now, O/A works fine - no generator related issues anyway. )
Reply:Originally Posted by kaldAbsolutely nothing wrong with experimentation and tweaking. I certainly do it with all of my gear and almost every piece of machinery I repair but his "findings" are inaccurate and misleading. Just look at the title of the thread. As you and DSW pointed out and as I point out in his other thread the amperage increase is coming at the expense of output voltage. Thus the output power/wattage of his machine is effectively the same as before and probably much less /desirable/usable/stable due to the lower output voltage. The same goes for his buzz box amperage increase.
Reply:I think alot of people have there mindset that if it aint a Miller or Lincoln 220v 200 series + machine then its junk.I say keep on experimenting, hell if u do end up frying something atleast u aint frying a $2000 plus machine and crying about it.I think its great ur trying to improve what ya got. Who cares about cost wise, if thats the point then half of what we weld wouldnt make sense cause u can probably buy it cheaper than building it.Kinda like the ones who scrutinize cause someone wants to upgrade there lil machines with a better ground clamp or mig gun. All machines are a compromise betweeen quality and cost and can be improved in some way or another with a "upgrade"Just my opinion anyways!HH140---------------------------https://www.facebook.com/brandon.pike.9
Reply:To get a voltage reading off the machine while welding I relocated the voltage probes off the capacitor terminals to the connection lugs, which fried the volt meter after about 3 seconds.To fix this I am going to replace the volt meter, along with the volt meter install a 40volt MOV to disapate surges when the arc is broken and install a reverse bias diode to snuf any counter EMF reverse voltage also from breaking the arc.That should do it.I dont trust dial a voltage. I like true readings.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:I finely got the new externally powered 3 wire 0.5 to 99 volt meter in. To power the volt meter it receives 5vdc from an obsolete cell phone charger I cut the end off and installed inside the machine. The volt meter signal is taken at the wire feed and work clamp connection lugs.It reads 20 to 21 volts runnin 0.025 wire with CO2 coverage.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:I made a 5 turn 6ga work lead. I clamped both work leads to the work, welded with one, disconnected and plugged in the other tried it and swaped back and forth.Seems to respond well to the little bit of inductance added by the coil.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:08:56