looking for some insight on boiler work.

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A couple days ago I was approached and asked if I could help cut out some old boilers out of a basement. I am currently attending a collage taking an 8 month welding course, previously was working in a welding shop for just over a year so I'm familiar with the tools, however this type of work is new to me. I don't have very many details yet but I do know that the building has already put a totally new system in that is not using any of the old fitting on the boilers. All I have to do if manage to cut the boilers apart in small enough pieces to carry out the door. I am told they are of the fire tube boiler type and as far as I can see there is not too much technical involved. just cut it apart and remove it. The two Boilers are roughly 16' long and 6' in diameter. Obviously they will be having  plumber in to disconnect everything That being said I was wondering if anyone on here has done something similar and perhaps give me some pointers on the best way to go tackle this. I will include some pictures of the Boilers and there is also 2 hot water tanks they want gone aswell. thanks for any input. Attached Images
Reply:i work in a coal fired generating station so i have experience with boilers, except much much larger scale lol, as far as removal i would just suggest torches, zip cuts, various wrenches, socket sets etc. BUT the bottom picture to me screams asbestos insulation generally any sort of boiler house, weather it be a water wall, or fire tube, any sort of piping, auxillerys, or boiler itself are coated in asbestos due to its superior insulating qualities at high temp, i would have it tested, and if it is then it will have to be professionally removed.
Reply:Good point and yes, I forgot to mention that part. They will also he having an outside company come in for all the removal of the asbestos. Another question I forgot to ask is would you or anyone else know what would be a reasonable amount to charge for the work? I really have no idea.
Reply:Does it have to go through a man door or a rollup door? Small forklift available or does each piece have to be carried?  Any stairs involved if you have to carry? How far does the scrap have to go to the dumpster/truck? Do you get the scrap?Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"
Reply:All the pieces have to fit through a man door, it all has to be carried by hand. There is a couple of stairs and then basically a straight hallway and then your outside in the parking lot. Basically all manual work but it could be alot worse lol. Im not certain yet but from what I have heard so far I think we get to keep the scraps.
Reply:For starters I'll second the asbestos issue, cheap company's love to find ignorant people to not know any better and do the work not knowing what they are dealing with. My question is why would a company want some young inexperienced person to do this work. The answer is simple, so they can get out cheap. Personally I think you need to politely decline the work.I know of a couple of pipe fitters that nearly got burnt up by dow-therm because of a cheap *** company being irresponsible. If you have to come here to find out how best to handle this move on as you don't have the necessary experience to do this.
Reply:I think locally, after the asbestos abatement, it has to be certified "clean" before other work can be done. I would not touch the job unless proper permitting is done for the asbestos.Actually, I wouldn't touch the job because that is too much manual labor.Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"
Reply:The only reason I was asked was because one of the other students works at the building getting all this work done so they asked him if there would be anyone else interested in doing some work. Just as a way of helping some poor students :P. All very fair concerns, maybe perhaps when the time comes Ill ask one of the instructors to come and take a look over everything before the work is to begin.
Reply:I think the demo part is going to be the "easy" part of the job once the asbestos issue is dealt with. It's the haul and dump that's going to be the real time killer.Think in terms of tons of material vs pounds. Stairs will be a SOB to deal with. That rules out hand trucks and wheel barrows for the most part to make the moving "easy". Any other "access" to the basement, windows perhaps? If I had to take on a job like this I'd probably want at least 2 if not more laborers to haul junk and one "helper" to be fire watch and help hold things while I cut. I cut, they haul or pass stuff out the window to each other.The other big question is how do you plan to bill this? T&M would be my preference as it removes the time crunch and demo variables from my end of the equation. If you go with a flat quote, you'd better have a really good guestimate on how long it's going to take to just haul all the scrap to the surface, not to mention the demo itself. I'd also build in the cost of several good respirators to be on the safe side while doing this work, plus some other PPE as well as disposables like gas for the torch and zip wheels, saw blades etc. Don't forget you might have to haul all that scrap too, so you may want to look at what a dumpster will end up running. Many scrap guys don't pay anywhere near as much if they have to haul it, and you can bet they'll be worried about asbestos as well also. I've sen them shut the whole dumping station down when some one brings in some old "asbestos" siding, whether it's really asbestos or the newer cement siding..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I actually dont remember if there was any windows or not. But yes, it would have to be t&m as this is the first time iv done something like this and therefore I'm not sure what to expect. I do know that the building got a gov grant for $255,000 so I dont think they are too concerned about money. As far as workers thats not a problem. The building has alot of people that work there as volunteers and so we can have access to them to do the grunt work :P. I figured since the parts have to be cut up small enough to be carried out i was just going to have a few half ton trucks lined up to make a couple trips to the scrap yard therefore eliminating the need for renting a dumpster.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75For starters I'll second the asbestos issue, cheap company's love to find ignorant people to not know any better and do the work not knowing what they are dealing with. My question is why would a company want some young inexperienced person to do this work. The answer is simple, so they can get out cheap. Personally I think you need to politely decline the work.I know of a couple of pipe fitters that nearly got burnt up by dow-therm because of a cheap *** company being irresponsible. If you have to come here to find out how best to handle this move on as you don't have the necessary experience to do this.
Reply:Documentation on the  asbestos removal must be seen . Get a local scraper to come in and GIVE you a price for demo. See what he says and go from there. There will be smoke and dust. Are they gonna shut down heat and smoke detectors during demo ? You may need some kind of insurance too not to mention SAFETY equipment, torch, exhaust fans , maybe fresh air fan too. Demo can be tricky to do it SAFELY !!! Seems like THEY do not want to pay what it should really cost !!!!! Pass on it and leave for a professional. Your health and safety is worth more than a couple of bucks !
Reply:If your not knowledgeable enough to know the concerns or the costs, perhaps its time to realize you do not have the experience to manage such a job. When you say we have volunteers to do grunt work it sounds to me like your a cheap punk kid who doesn't realize he is scamming others. I for one hope they aren't as ignorant and tell you to shove the boilers up your ***.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:I doubt if the insulation is asbestos, that's been illegal for 30 years or so, and the boilers don't look that old.   More likely it is just calcium silicate.Cal-sil merely requires a dust mask to handle, if that.If in doubt, get a sample or three tested.
Reply:How did they get the new boilers in there?  thats how i would get the old boilers out.     Anything else is going to be pure torture.     cutting it up into sub 100lb pieces to get it out the man door is going to be a torturous SOB.    baring in mind you don't leave the site with mesothelioma.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:A lot of guys on here will tell you if you have to ask, you're not qualified/experienced enough to do it; which it really sounds like you are not. But, I say go for it. This is how you will get experience. Might go good or it might go bad. Could go real bad. Thats a risk that us working men take every day. I guarantee you will learn from doing this job, probably that you shoulda charged a lot more if nothing else.  Dont use the volunteers to make you a buck. Pay them like you would want paid  Good luckSafety 3rdGump
Reply:Originally Posted by GumpA lot of guys on here will tell you if you have to ask, you're not qualified/experienced enough to do it; which it really sounds like you are not. But, I say go for it. This is how you will get experience. Might go good or it might go bad. Could go real bad. Thats a risk that us working men take every day. I guarantee you will learn from doing this job, probably that you shoulda charged a lot more if nothing else.  Dont use the volunteers to make you a buck. Pay them like you would want paid  Good luck
Reply:Originally Posted by mike7466Good point and yes, I forgot to mention that part. They will also he having an outside company come in for all the removal of the asbestos. Another question I forgot to ask is would you or anyone else know what would be a reasonable amount to charge for the work? I really have no idea.
Reply:Meborder you raise some good points. A few others you mention I have some issues with. Planks on stairs and hand trucks comes to mind. While it is doable, there are several hazards doing this. Slip and fall being one, and the fact that if you accidentally let go a heavy load there's a good chance someone below can get hurt. I'm not sure hand trucks on stairs are a great idea. I've seen planks shift unexpectedly and often the planks really need to be exactly where your feet need to go as well. Trying to pull uphill on a sloped surface has accident written all over it as soon as there is oil/moisture or grit on the planks. Someone mentioned they had to get the new boilers in... Most boiler rooms I remember usually had a large set of doors for access, you may need chainfalls etc to use them however... I'd look closer at the site.Here's a few others to keep in mind. Biggest is see is the injury angle. If you are now the "sub" and someone gets hurt, you could very well be the one held liable. Make sure you get this ironed out up front. You work for them and the "help works for them, not you. It's a fine distinction, but a very important one. If someone drops something on the stairs, someone else could get hurt. Sharp objects, heavy loads, laborers who aren't careful and try to move more than they probably should, or if something shifts while you are cutting unexpectedly... Make sure you know who is covering injuries and workers comp.As far as trucks, trailers are a good idea. I'd look at dump trailers. Remember you may have to hand unload at the scrapyard as well. Figure in that time as part of the equation. It sucks to have a bunch of guys that have to move material twice, because they can't load direct to the transport vehicle. They haul it all upstairs, then have to dump it and then pick it all back up to load when the truck/trailer shows up. Also keep in mind your labor might all disappear to go dump, and you might have to stop because you can't get all the stuff out of your way as you cut.Last edited by DSW; 01-07-2013 at 01:43 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:All other issues aside, make sure you get proper liability insurance, you can probably buy a policy for the duration of the job.  Several million, you have to think; what if you burnt the place down by accident?  I don't know the context of the situation unless this is your church or something, it's well above a $1500 bill.  By the time it's all said and done you might have rented a liquid oxy tank, scrap torch, etc.
Reply:I think  Mike was offered a job helping who ever has this contract. I don't think he needs to bid ,tool up,plan and run the job,but if he dose, someone is looking to take advantage of him.Last edited by ironrail; 01-07-2013 at 02:57 PM.
Reply:I've cut a few boilers. Find out how the scrap yard will buy the material. Most yards pay more for prepared steel and seeing as how you need it to go through a man door it should meet the specs. What I do first is cut the outer skin that runs lengthwise to expose the boiler tubes. Get that entirely gone. You should then see the tubes. Then I take a demo saw (Partner saw) and start cutting the tubes. I start near one of the face plates for the outer most tubes and stagger as I go towards the center of the boiler. The first ring of tubes will be cut the shortest if you measure from the end plate then the next ring will be a little longer and so on until you reach the center burner tube. When I do it, I stop cutting tubes when they are three foot long. I then cut the end plate around the tubes I have chopped with the saw. This way you end up with a nice chunk of prepared steel that consists of a piece of the end plate and some staggered tubes. If you then stand it up right it will look like a pipe organ. Then rinse and repeat. Clear as mud?I've never had to remove one from a building, so I can't tell you about how to get payed.
Reply:If possible I would consider bringing in a Contractor or mason and Taking a Wall out.  getting the Boiler out in bigger pieces will save time and consumables.  But also the Contractor or mason will Charge you.....   Something to think about...   Get the Job done faster and theres more time to go through and seperate materials.....Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:I appreciate all the input and thank everyone for say. New systems were very compact and fit through doors fine. Dont know what they would be called or how the work but very compact, I dont see any way around walking pieces out a door. All the concerns brought up are all very good points. Not sure when the work it to begin so I just wanted some opinions. I am not some punk kid, I simply put my post up here to see what others had to say. I don't assume I know everything, just wanted some input from everyone else's experiences and learn from those. I will have to wait and see about all the details and then make the desision. Perhaps decline the work but offer to help out and therefore still gain the knowledge. thanks for everyones input though, lots to think about.
Reply:My First ever Job running my own Welding Business was a Replacing a Old Boiler System with a new modern one.  I was nervous as hell! 56 Unit Condo Complex.  But the plumber on the Job Sub contracted the work to me and saw I was nervous and said "Be Confident of your work,  remember why your here,  These other guys dont know how to Weld, Cut, or operate your tools,  Thats why they called you".   That still sticks with me to this day.  I went into this job with a POS Lincoln AC/DC 225 Engine Driven Machine.  It had no muffler, Didnt work half the time and I had to shut if off by taking a 2X4 and smacking the Spark plug boot off, and I had a 4" grinder.  Thats it. The Building Manager came by one day on a Saturday when I was working there, and said "LOL Thats a really small Welder you have there"  I threw it right back at him and laughed,  Well this is a really small job,  I only bring out my big machines for important jobs"....(He had no clue this was my first Job)  He walked away,  I insulted his Condo Complex and Job saying it was ultimately un-important to me....What im saying is this job is a great way to get your feet wet.  You really cant mess up cutting something apart that your gonna scrap.  Have fun with it, and remember "They Called you Cause they dont know how to do what you do".By the Way.  Im only 23.   (Its not a age thing)Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."Say you do the job and the scrap is yours. It may be worth more than the labor for doing the job. Keep track of the copper, it is being stolen by the ton every day. If you have the right to the scrap take the time to stash it as you go along.  right now I think it is bringing 1.50 a pound.  Mac
Reply:Nice Industrial Combustion burner! As a man who works on iron like that every day, my mind wonders whats beyond the pictures.Yeah yeah, A-bomb.... Over it. They got those in their, they didnt build the boiler room around them.... Beams overhead? Condensate lines that will be in the way? Access to a forktruck? What needs to be "surgically removed"?4 man crew could some serious cleanout work in their, and you'll make the building lighter!Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:I have a question, how did they get those in there? and what are they going to do after you remove em ? get new onces in ? how will that happen ? there must be some plan, so perhabs they can change some parts of the plan, and whatever the pathway was to install these maybe u can use the same path to get them out ?
Reply:As a to-be HVAC/R and gas technician, I am thinking they are spending the money to replace them because they are low- to mid-efficiency (non-condensing) boilers, and hence got a government grant to upgrade as part of a "going green" initiative... Yes?Last edited by walterbrunswick; 01-08-2013 at 11:43 PM.
Reply:I have no idea how they got these down there, when they brought the new hot water tanks down they cut a doorway a bit wider, maybe an extra 6". Thus proving that there is going to be no easier way to get these out. Why would the cut a doorway bigger if there was an easier way? Yes, it is something like that. There is two boilers and one had to be shut done due to the condition of it and so instead of fixing it they brought in a new system. Perhaps you know what to call it? I only had a quick look at the whole thing but thier new system consisted of about 8 boxes on stands maybe 18"x18" looked nothing at all like a boiler but apperently thats the new stuff. Didnt manage to take any pictures of them. Next time I go back I will.
Reply:18" X 18" X H? Please do take some photos of the new boilers if you can... would be interesting. Depends how many BTUs each boiler puts out, but if you manifold them together, I'm sure it's a respectable amount. Or else you run separate loops with different zoning controls... no idea how that building is set up...
Reply:I have done heavy demo in tight areas with a lot of manual Labor. this is not for a 1 man show with a couple "helpers" if you want to make money or be done this year. Not insulting you, you stated you are not a "punk kid" just the fact that you would take this on proves that. Now from what I have read and only what I have read is you have about 1 yr welding experience in a shop, and are attending college. So realistically what is your cutting, demo, and rigging experience. Be honest it will help with the advice you get here. As far as the demo job not being able to hurt anything, "wrong" you can get hurt cutting tanks and boilers real easy. These pieces are gonna be heavy and the thing that will get you quick is if you don't make clean cuts every time and you have to start going back around unstable chunks to cut the stickers loose, Anyway the Asbestos issue is not solved until you know a licensed permitted contractor is going to do it and inspection afterwards, Asbestos fibers tend to linger around and are very bad for you in minute quanities. You know that but I'm wondering if this outfit doesn't go out and get an experienced demo co. for this, who will they get for abatement. Beware is a couple of guys with white paper suits go in there at night or on Sunday when no one is around, big flag.    If I were you and wanted to get the experience, I would ask the Co. to hire me, figure a good fair rate and you do the cutting and let some others do the hauling, but thats up to you how much you want to haul up the stairs.  If you think about what gasses and equipment and all the related will cost, it's a lot. If your gonna haul it with PU trucks, you won't clear a lot in scrap after fuel and time.As far as getting a policy for insurance with no business reference or prior job lists, price will be expensive if you can get covered at all.    If you go on there payroll , you are covered for damage and even if you are injured, god for bid.  Anyway , first time out you might want to do it under there wing, next one you will have a better Idea if you want to jump all in.     Working under them what do you have to loose, you get experience, your guaranteed to put a few bucks in your pocket and if it really doesn't go to your liking  you can walk.   However you do it, be carefull, and good luck.   Contrary to the others I think those were in place before the walls went up, or the fact they are on skids they may have been set with a crane before buttoning the roof up."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:As far as I've heard and read, asbestos only becomes a real hazard if you work with it day in and day out. It's not really a hazard in "minute quantities" (otherwise I'm in trouble). Some person I know was telling me twenty years ago (early 1990's) before asbestos became "bad" how things were different. Now with this "scare" everyone's ****ting their pants when they hear the word... and they're still mining this stuff.The irony of this all is that now we're drinking tap water with fluoride and eating GMO foods. Which is really worse for us?
Reply:Minute quainities, under a microscope Asbestos fibers appears as little barbed hooks" thus the name hook fibers" these attach inside your lungs and stay there, overtime they cause problems,   Do you think they would have outlawed the substance, and abated it from just about everywhere they could, and had the lawsuits and subsequent bankruptcy of all the major asbestos makers of the early 1900's if it wasn't dangerous.  Yes small quanities are dangerous and I can tell you my father  was diagnosed with asbestos disease that led to throuat cancer and one of the most horrible deaths I have ever seen,  You could look into his throat and see his spine where the cancer ate about 1/3 of the tissues away, could not eat or drink the last year of his life other than ensure through a feeding tube in his side.  I know what I am talking about.  Don't mess with it in any quanity without training and PPE.Last edited by kolot; 01-10-2013 at 03:28 PM."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:When I said I don't have to worry about hurting anything I more ment the material. A plumber will be in to disconnect everything so I don't have to be so cautious as to save fittings and such. Not really a good way to say this but I am actually quite good with torches and such, used them at work and currently am getting some of the highest marks in class. As far as rigging and safety, I worked on picker trucks (22-40 tonne) and big bed trucks for a rig moving company for just over a year. Obviously not directly comparable but I feel alot of the knowledge can be transferred. As well as being safety conscious, I know how quickly things can go south. I have seen guys get all their fingers cut off from small mistakes. I am always aware of my surroundings and always watching for such situations.
Reply:I always rolled my eyes when my dad told me to wear safety glasses, ear plugs and a respirator.   Now a little older I realize he is right.  Ran flux core for several days and I felt heavy and blew black stuff out of my nose for a week.  So not to sound like a old man,  if I was removing those boilers I would make sure I had a respirator and proper ventilation.   Like daddy always said "Cant go to the hospital and ask for a new eye or set of lungs"Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:this is no saturday afternoon basement clean out. to do this type of work takes a large investment in tools.  just the rigging stuff and safety equipment for 4 people will cost plenty. hard hats, respirators, large fans and blowers, come-alongs and chain falls. oak 4x4 sleepers for dunnage and the list goes on and on. all this before you even think about oxygen and acetylene, torches and grinders, ect. i got to commend your ambition but have to question the motives (and wisdom) of the building owners. imho~ take a pass on this one before you or one of your friends gets injured.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:I'd bid it for $225,000 plus expenses, and you get the scrap.  The company has to hire you on salary for one month, carry the insurance and liability for anything that goes wrong.  They produce a certified letter that all asbestos has been removed, then move in with a torch and strong back.  Shouldn't take you more than a few days provided you can stay away from video games and girls.
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Damn, where do I apply?