Old Farts Stick Welding Class

admin

"Ol' Rick is taking a SMAW welding class at the local college this semester" - SoutthpawYes, it's true.  I did this in response to all the past 'favorable'   comments on the 'stellar'   appearance of my weld beads. Thought maybe you might be interested in what I am experiencing in this class.Every Monday night, 7 - 10PM for 10 weeks... ARC-1 Welding (credit course).Class #1: Sept 26 - Light coverage of general theory only - 2 hours.The arc-welding instructor was the same fellow who had instructed my oxy-acet course of a year ago.  That course had been full - 20 students including 1 girl.  That class make up was 4 college-age folks, 12 guys in their 30 and 40's and 4 old farts - like me.  Yet, with so many students, each of us only got one-on-one instruction once during the 3 hour classes. This time for Arc Welding 1, there were only 10 of us... Great!  More one-on-one time!No girls = guys jokes OK!  The amazing thing was that there was only 2 young colege age guys, 1 guy in the 30 - 40 age range and the rest of us... "The Magnificent 7"  were Old Fart Hobby Welders!The college building we were in was brand new; the new welding shop in the basement was still being completed and our instructor hadn't yet been given a key!  That's why this 1st class was only 2 hours of theory only!  The only good news was that the new shop was equipped with Lincoln V350pros.  The bad news was that this new location was a long 20 minute walk from the college parking lots!Class #2: Oct 3 - Demo of how to set up the Lincoln V350 pro, start an arc and run a bead with 6013, 3/32 and 1/8 inch electrodes (BOC).Things I learned:0 - We can park free at night in the local bus Park & Ride - just a 5 minute walk fro the welding shop!  Good, that darn long 20 minute walk to then from the shop tired me out!1 - I was running too long an arc!  That produces those vees >>>> in my welds.  I  have to get the rod right in there.  I have a tendancy the go up & down - too far into the weld pool then up too far - long arcing it.2 - Positioning...I benefit from bracing my hip against something (the welding machine), that allows me to run a smoother bead as I rock less to/fro and side/side and my up & down dipping was less too.That up & down dipping creates problems... long arc = slag then too close covers up the slag.3 - A short arc is essential, rod tip just grazing the puddle.  Keep that distance and you get a nice bead.4 - Amperage (3/32 inch 6013):  At first, with my long arc, I had to keep lowering the machine amperage from 90 (flat weld <<<<), to 80, to 70 to 60 (about same as home) to 50 amps - a high narrow bead.  The instructor played with my welder and found good results at 75 amps.  When I used a shorter arc, this worked for me too... but a slightly longer arc and it was too hot.5 - Amperage (1/8 6013):  Maybe about 100 - 110 amps.  90 was too cold with a short arc.6 - T weld fillet:  Again the up & down created slag spots and a varying pile up metal (long arc = thin, low deposit with black slag).7 - The V350 can draw one hell of a long arc = 2.5 inches.  The instructor commented on that too - had not seen that behaviour before on other machines.8 - Materials Used: Electrodes: I didn't keep a close count of the electrodes I used but I would estimate:3/32" = 10 rods, 1/8" = 10 rods.  I used less than I expected to.  The class of 10 persons started with one 10 lb box of 3/32" 6013 BOC and one 10 lb box of 1/8" 6013 BOC electrodes.  At the end of the 3 hour class (2.5 hours spent mostly welding), there was about 25% left in each box. So, math says:75% of 20 lbs = 15 lbs / 10 persons = 1.5 lbs burnt per person.At say my retail price, thats $3.30/lb x 1.5 = $5Steel: Welding coupons were usually 1.5 x 4 inches in 1/8" and 3/16" thickness, with a few larger 1.5 x 6 inches in the 3/16" thickness.  I used about 20 coupons all told.1/8 thick: 10 pieces x 4" long = 40", call it 4 ftRetail price for me: ~$43/16 thick: 4 pieces x 6" long + 6 pieces x 4" long = 4 ft.Retail price for me: ~$6Thus the total consumables I used in this class = $15 (electrodes & metal)Class #3:  Oct 17  (We had no class on Thanksgiving Oct 10)I left the car in Park & Ride and in 5 minutes I was at the welding shop!   Very Good!Instructor said that two weeks ago we were all long-arcing!  "Make an effort to shorten up those arc lengths!"We were given some handouts:- Table 12.1  Interpretations of Last Digits AWS Electrode Classification- Table 12.2 AWS Designation of Major Alloying Elements in Arc Welding Electrodes- Table 12.7 AWS Electrode Storage- Table 12.8 Typical Amperage Ranges of various electrodesOne last handout - how we will be marked (A+, A, A-, B+, B, B-, etc.) and the table of what we will be graded on - see picture.Then we had a one  hour of demonstration with the whole class of 10 clustered about the welding table.- Demo of 6013 straight polarity (rod -ve) and 7014 reverse polarity (rod +ve); the instructor running short beads to tune in on the correct amperage by looks and listening for the sound of frying bacon! - Demo of what to watch for when making a lap joint - 3/32" 6013 and 1/8" thick steel.- Demo of what to watch for when making a lap joint - 1/8" 7014 and 3/16" thick steelMain points:a) Rod angle about 60 degrees - pointed mostly toward the bottom plate.b) Focus on just slightly chewing the upper plate edge while maintaining a constant size weld pool.c) Yikes!  When you are good, 5 amps can make a difference!  On a single 4" long lap joint using 1/8" plates and 3/32 inch 6013 negative (straight polarity), the instructor ran 3 short weld beads:.....1st bead: looked a little too convex... a mite crowned, he upped the current by 5 amps,.....2nd bead: looked slightly convex, upper the current another 5 amps,.....3rd bead: looked flat - top edge just welded and base of bead quite wide.Then we went to our welding booths to run beads and do lap joints.Things I learned when welding:1 - I ran some beads and realized I was not as good as two weeks ago.  I had to relax and focus, played with the amps and practiced holding a tight arc; I had a tendancy to allow the arc to get a little too long.2 - Tried some 1/8" plate lap joints using 6013 negative - 60 to 70 amps.  Some were darn near perfect - that flat bead for a while then... a line of slag in the middle of the weld bead, then OK again.  This happened on two different lap joints.  What's going on?  The instructor looked at my plates... "That's where you long arced it.  The arc split in two and threw slag in the middle."3 - Instructor watched me as I tried another lap joint.  "Too long an arc!  Watch the puddle - keep the pool size constant .  You should be going real slow; if the arc gets a mite too long then the rod burns faster and you end up moving faster... keep the arc short and you will move more slowly."4 - Instructor then played with the amperage... he went from my 60 amps to 75 amps and held a real short arc = perfect!  But when I tried it, I couldn't handle the extra amps... slightly long in the arc and I was soon rushing along the weld line.  I could handle 65 amps... still didn't get a perfect weld.5 - Discussed helmet view position with the instructor.  View from behind the rod (welding away from helmet) or view from in front of rod (welding toward helmet)?a) View from behind the rod (welding away from helmet) - instructor preferance, "You can see the puddle."b) View from in front of rod (welding toward helmet) - on a lap joint, you have a better view of chewing away the edge of the upper plate, the position of the rod/arc relative to the plates (easy to stay on line of weld) and you can see the arc length clearly.  However, you can't see the weld pool well - because it is behind the rod.I had been doing the view from behind the rod and wasn't improving much so I tried welding towards me (view from in front of rod).  I got a more consistant, wider and flatter bead... good cut on upper edge but weld bead width varied (I couldn't see it behind the rod).6 - I need more practice!  Short arc, go slow, inspect each weld bead right affter welding - bang the slag off!  Look at the weld.  Even if you think it's crap with the slag on - do not make another weld until you pound off the slag and see/learn what you did well/poorly.  There are sometimes pleasant surprises under some nasty looking slag lumps.7- Materials Used: Electrodes: I didn't keep a close count of the electrodes I used but in two hours I estimated about 15 rods of 3/32" 6013.  I stayed on straight polarity with 3/32" 6013 all night at around 60 to 70 amps.Steel: I used welding plates of 1.5 x 4 inches x 1/8" thick.  I estimate I used:- for running beads: 5 plates- for lapp joints: maybe 18 platesSay 23 total: 23 x 4" = 92 inches,  retail is about $6 for 6 feet, So I used about $8 worth of steel and $2 worth of electrodes.So that's been the "Old Farts Stick Welding Class" to date.Another class coming up tomorrow night... Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Good on you, we can always stand to learn more.
Reply:Sounds like you are learning a lot. With your attention to detail shown in many of your threads, you should do well and get a lot out of this class..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:What I found interesting is that most all the guys in the class had stick welded before and many, like me, own an arc welder.  Yet even with that prior 'experience' we are 'babes in the woods' struggling to master the basics of making decent stick welds and learning the steps and signs to correct our errors.  It's an eye-opener to me just how much hood time under corrective supervision is required to master two basic joints: lap and tee - in the flat position! Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Yep. Now you can begin to see what many have been saying for awhile to you.It's the experience you are getting that is sometimes hard to get across to some people who want to learn. You can "practice" all you want trying to learn on your own, but if you aren't getting the basics down right, at best you are wasting your time ( and money) and at worst you are developing bad habits that are hard to brake. Once you learn the basics, you will have the tools to continue outside of class, and many of those same skills will carry over into other areas like mig and tig..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Class #4 October 24 2011We started with 1/2 hour demo of 3/16 inch thick lap and T joints using 7018.Instructor mentioned that we had played with 6013 and 7014 last week and that tonight we should focus on 7018.  He said that getting some experience with all the electrodes was important, better than just trying to correct our problems with one electrode - that often working with other rods would turn up the solution to your previous problem.Instructor said enjoy the smooth bead characteristics of the 6013, 7014 and 7018 because when we get into 6010, it's going to be a 'heart-breaker'! Then to the welding booths...I did several lap joints on 1/8th inch thick plates using 3/32 inch 6013, 7014 and 7018 at about 65 - 70 amps.I found 6013 to be tricky on arc length; you have to be really consistent else you get crap.  Too short an arc and the slag pool gets ahead of the rod tip and when you correct your arc length you just pour metal over that slag.  Too long an arc, even briefly, and the arc splits in two, metal going to the upper plate and to the bottom plate... with slag going into the middle!  I found 7014 and 7018 much easier to use.Next, I did several T joints on 1/8th inch thick plates using 3/32 inch 6013, 7014 and 7018 at 75 - 85 amps.  I got some portions of runs ok but I was not too happy in general.Switched to thicker plates and larger electrodes.I did lap joints on 3/16th inch thick plates using 1/8 inch 6013, 7014 and 7018 at 95 - 105 amps.  In general, I got better results with the large plates/electrodes.Next, I did several T joints on 1/8th inch thick plates using 3/32 inch 6013, 7014 and 7018 at 105 amps.  I felt I was not able to lay down enough metal; I couldn't seem to carry a wide enough, proud enough weld pool.  If I went slow and waited for the pool to build to the width I wanted, the face of the weld went concave 'U' on me.  Maybe I needed less amps? Materials Used... we used a lot more tonight!Electrodes:3/32": 6013 = 6, 7014 = 4, 7018 = 4, 14 total, ~$21/8":   6013 = 6, 7014 = 4, 7018 = 4, 14 total, ~$3Steel:1/8" x 1.5" x 4" = 16 used for lap joints, 8 used for T joints, 24 total, ~$83/16" x 1.5" x 6" = 8 used for lap joints, 6 used for T joints, 14 total, ~$11Total Cost = $24So, I have 4 classes left.  No more major demonstrations - just 3 hours of welding.Next week, the class begin accumulating marks in that 20-box scoring grid. The marks go in in pencil and student can always return later with a better result to upgrade a previous mark. On the way to the parking lot, one of the guys said that only a few portions of some weld beads were good.  I remarked that it was like golf; you have to hold onto the memory of the rare good shots and forget all the rest. Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Class #5 October 31 2011 - HalloweenTurns out we have another 5 classes to go after this one.We got started 15 minutes late because there was no power to the welding machines - had to wait for security.  Teething problems of a brand new building.This class and the next 5 are targeted to getting marks to fill in that scoring grid.My approach, as in the past oxy-acet course, was to focus on filling in all boxes of the score sheet with anything above a 'C', then come back to my lowest marks and work on raising them up.  That way no matter what happens (missed class, accident, etc.), I still get a passing grade.I focussed on that darn 6013 straight polarity (electrode negative)!It's my weak point (slag lines, slag spots and undercut) and I wanted to get it out of my hair ASAP!  Lap-JointsAfter several not too bad laps on 1/8 material with 3/32" rod, I was given a B+.Onwards to 3/16 material laps with 1/8 rod... I got a B+ there too.T-JointsI started working on these - 3/16 inch material and 1/8 6013 electrode negative.  Not too pretty!  Instructor came and showed me how he does it - laid down a nice 'A' mark weld.  I brought it home as a target to inspire me.Some tricks here for both the lap and T-joints:1 - Changed from 'soft' to 'crisp' arc on the V350pro - that more forceful arc helped blow the slag back, stopping it from getting in front of the rod.2 - I'm right-handed.  I used my usual backhand style, welding left to right with head to the left almost behind the rod - got one semi-pretty bead but some slag spots too.  Changed to fore-hand style, welding right to left with head to the left now in front of the rod - welds were more effective (no slag spots) but not so pretty - wider weld and the width varied somewhat (couldn't see the puddle well because it the rod was in front of it).*** Got to work out a better position so I can both SEE where I'm going and SEE where I have been. ***Materials Used...Electrodes:3/32": 6013 = 8, 8 total ~$1.401/8":   6013 = 15, 15 total ~$3.21Steel:1/8" x 1.5" x 4" plates 8 used for lap joints, 8 total, ~$2.703/16" x 1.5" x 6" = 8 used for lap joints, 8 used for T joints, 16 total, ~$12Total Cost = ~$19Amusing Incident...Being Halloween, I brought in a couple of sparklers!Trimed the metal end short - so it looked just like a welding rod.  Scapped the coating off the rod tip so it would light just like a welding rod.About an hour into the class, I called the instructor into my booth and showed him a crappy T-joint fillet weld - discussed that.  Then flipped to the other unwelded side and asked if he could demonstrate good technique. I handed him the stinger, already loaded with the sparkler rod - looking like a new electrode.  He looked at it a bit but then shrugged and lite up on the T-joint.  Watching through my helmet, I thought... "What the Heck... there's no spakler sparks and he's actually welding with it - got an inch of bead laid down!" I touched his arm and said, "Stop".  He stopped but I could still see the glow of the rod tip through my helmet - strange.  Up went our helmets and there was the sparkler burning bright and 'sparkly'. We had a good laugh as I said, "Trick or Treat!"  He said, "I wondered why it was running so crappy."  We waited as the sparkler burnt down.  He said, "That's a great idea.  I've a buddy at work I could get with that gag."  I said, "I brought another one with me, want it?"  "For sure!" Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:lmao  some times HORSE_PLAY has its placeidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:Yeah... not being a suck up but... that brought us closer and earned me some future consideration.Similar thing happened back in oxy-acet class, same instructor could do everything well except high-temp braze of aluminum.  I went to the student who he said did it best and learned and tried his technique.  Back to the instructor, got him in my booth and showed him; he then tried - perfect!  He came around later that last night to show me my overall grade = 'A', then said, "What the 'H', you've been useful... and upped my grade to 'A+'. Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Class #6 November 7, 2011I got into the lab 25 minutes early and was able to get all my materials and gear set up before the class.We had a 3/4 hour demonstration of 6010 and 6011 3/32" and 1/8" electrodes on beads, lap and tee joints - instructor just ran stringers with no whip.  Turns out the new Lincoln V350pros are DC only, so having everyone do 6011 AC as part of our tests was going to be a problem as there were only a few older Millar Dialarcs.  So - instructor decided that all we have to do is show that we can run anything decent using the demo machine with 6011 AC!Recall that 20 box score grill? Well with 6011AC out for 1/8 and 3/16 laps and tees, that leaves only a 16 box score grill!  That made us 10 students happy!  With 4 classes left we have to complete about 4 boxes a night, that's better than 5 boxes a night! Even so, the class was pretty intense last night; everyone welding like busy beavers without much break... got to get moving to get the marks in.  I cut short my smoke break and sweat was pouring off me most the night.  I was quite exhausted when the 3-hour class ended. Lap-JointsInstructor watched me weld a couple of 3/16 lap joints with 1/8 inch rod.  On the first weld, I travelled left to right, the rod getting further from my eyes with travel.  I'm right handed.  With my head offset to the left, I can get a good view of the weld puddle but after a couple inches of weld I find it hard to judge the arc length and exactly where the rod tip is relative to the joint.On the second weld, I travelled right to left, the rod getting closer to my eyes with travel.  With my head offset to the left, I can get a good view of exactly where the rod tip is relative to the joint and clearly see the arc length.  The problem is that I can't see the weld puddle very well because it's behind the rod.Afer watching me do both, the instructor said, 'Going left to right, you're dipping up and down changing your arc length and you are also wandering up and down the vertical surface of the lap.  You're definetly smoother going right to left.'  I commented on the weld beads being wider going right to left.  'Yes, that's a might wide for sure but it's a good weld and on a job site, a good weld is preferred to a pretty weld.'As I said after class #5, "*** Got to work out a better position so I can both where I'm going and where I have been. ***  Any suggestions?T-JointsI started working on 3/16 inch material with 1/8 7014 electrode positive.  Got one good one out of several attempts.  I then tried 1/8 7018 out of the oven but that didn't go as well.So the night was focussed on the thicker 3/16 inch lap and tee joints with 1/8 inch electrodes.Burned some 1/8 6013 and got a A- score on one of my T joints.Burned some 1/8 7014 and got a A- score on one of my T joints.Burned some 1/8 7018 and got a B- score on one of my T joints.My score card now looks like this:Electrodes.................3/32 rod with 1/8 Plate...............1/8 rod with 3/16 Plate...................................Lap............  Tee............................Lap...........Tee6013 (-).........................B+......................  .......................B+..............A-.7014 (+)...............................................  .............................................A-7018 (+)...............................................  .............................................B-6010 (+)...............................................  ...............................................6011 (AC)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Materials Used in Class #6...Electrodes:3/32" all types = 0, total = 01/8 7014 = 12 on laps,1/8 7018 = 4 on Tees1/8 6010 = 4 on Tees, 6 on lappsTotal = 26 rods, = $5.50Steel:1/8" x 1.5" x 4" plates = 03/16" x 1.5" x 6" = 8 used for lap joints, 16 used for T jointsTotal = 24 plates = $24 Total Cost = ~$29Materials Used Running Total Over 6 Classes = $0 + $17 + $10 + $24 + $24 + $29 = $104We have another 4 classes to go after this one.  In the between times, I'm practicing at home.  It's been slow going, just a little improvement each time.  There have been no, "Ah-Ha!" moments for me yet. I'd of never believed stick welding was such a challenge.  Compared to stick, Mig is a walk in the park! Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Rick you are finally on your way to becoming a welder, yes you welded before but now with some instruction and a first hand class enviroment I really believe you will do all the better in the welding field having been a part of this class. Remember none of us are too old to learn, I learn something everyday, when the time comes that you or we are too old to learn the game is all over anyway. Good luck with the class and have fun, I think you've earned it!wboldenMiller Shopmaster 300Miller Syncrowave 250Miller Thunderbole 250/150 AC-DCMiller Weldpack 140 w/autosetMiller S-22 WirefeederLincoln 255 xt Mig welderLincoln 216 Mig welderVictor,Smith and Harris OA7X 12 JET BANDSAW
Reply:Hey wbolden,Well those are nice comments coming from a welding instructor... but at 55 I'm not certain you qualify yet for the 'Old Farts Club'.   It guess it might depend on the State you live in...   As for doing "all the better in the welding field having been a part of this class" - well the class is helping me to do better welding... but only in the 'welding field' as a hobby guy - no big trailers for me!  Yeah, I'm having fun! Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Thanks rick for your kindness as for the old fart club I started when I was 12 years old welding I was a helper in a shop when I was 10 so that would make it 43 to 45 years I started at Uss steel at 16 and I lied about my age after my father someone had to feed the family, and being the oldest ang having  a skill of sorts that made me the obvious choice. After 5 years and being sent to college by the company for welding I became an instructor and have never looked back Ive beeen doing it all these years and enjoyed every minute of it. With students there is a challenge every day, I think thats wha I meant by being an old fart! ALLTHE BEST RICK MY FRIEND truly enjoy you and DSW IN ALL YOUR THREADS! And are looking for many many more in the future. thanks for the adventure and the never ending learning which is most important.wboldenMiller Shopmaster 300Miller Syncrowave 250Miller Thunderbole 250/150 AC-DCMiller Weldpack 140 w/autosetMiller S-22 WirefeederLincoln 255 xt Mig welderLincoln 216 Mig welderVictor,Smith and Harris OA7X 12 JET BANDSAW
Reply:Pics or shens!!
Reply:Yeah... pictures!  I almost brought a camera to class last week; OK, I'll bring one next week and see if I can get some pics of the college building, the welding shop, typical welding cubicals, the welding machines, the new metal bins, the scrap metal bins, the rod holder boxes & oven, etc.I can post pictures of my graded welds sooner - as I brought some of those home.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Here are some pictures of welds from my arc-welding class.Fillet Welds: Instructor vs Me = I Lose! Lap Joints: Just meNow to fight some slag! The worst part about this is... these are my best welds to date!  I don't know, somedays it comes together and somedays it don't! I guess I just got to keep at it... lbs & lbs of rod yet to burn...Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VI don't know, somedays it comes together and somedays it don't!
Reply:Your welds have definitely improved over what you were posting earlier. Honestly your 6013 welds look quite good other than the slag at the ends. I'd guess it's position related as you mentioned before. Instead of straight left to right, right to left, try to weld towards or away from you at say a 30 deg angle. This helps some guys as the swing of their arm is a bit easier that way. ( simpler to show than explain) Usually for someone right handed, it helps to start up close to themselves on the left, and as they swing their arm down pivoting on the elbow they move away to the right at an angle and as the rod burns down their arm naturally adjusts at the same time.Just keep practicing and you will improve..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Great post Rick! Was the class very expensive? I've thought about the local college before, but don't have the time or the cash right now..AC-180 Lincolnwelder circa '50's
Reply:Originally Posted by chopnhackGreat post Rick! Was the class very expensive? I've thought about the local college before, but don't have the time or the cash right now..
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW...Instead of straight left to right, right to left, try to weld towards or away from you at say a 30 deg angle....Usually for someone right handed, it helps to start up close to themselves on the left, and as they swing their arm down pivoting on the elbow they move away to the right at an angle and as the rod burns down their arm naturally adjusts at the same time.
Reply:Class #7 November 14, 2011I got into the lab 15 minutes early and got all set up.No demos, brief instructor talk and straight into welding at 7:05 PM.The focus tonight for everyone was filling in those 16 boxes on our score charts! My hood, shown in my avatar, created some problems... the cover traps heat.  I had to take it off frequently...like when removing slag from the weld I just made.Here's what I did tonight.6013 (-)I knocked off the 1/8" thick T fillet weld with 3/32" rod.  It took me 20 fillet welds to finally get something decent - just got a 'B' score on it.That completed all the 6013 - Yeah!!!  (I hate that rod!)7014 (+)Did OK here:Using 3/32" rod, completed 1/8" thick lap joint - scored an A(-)Using 3/32" rod, completed 1/8" thick T joint - scored a BUsing 1/8" rod, completed 3/16" thick lap joint - scored a B7018 (+)Good progress here:Using 3/32" rod, completed 1/8" thick lap joint - scored an A(-)Using 3/32" rod, completed 1/8" thick T joint - scored a BUsing 1/8" rod, completed 3/16" thick lap joint - scored an A(-)My score card now looks like this - with 12 of 16 boxes completed.Electrodes.................3/32 rod with 1/8 Plate...............1/8 rod with 3/16 Plate...................................Lap............Tee............................Lap.  ..........Tee6013 (-).........................B+...............B......  .......................B+..............A-7014 (+)........................A-................B..............................B..  .............A-7018 (+)........................A-................B..............................A-...............B-6010 (+)...............................................  ..................................................6011 (AC)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Great!  Next class hopefully I'll get my 6010 welds done with good scores  That would remove all pressure because I would have a passing grade.  That could leave the last 2 classes to work on improving my techniques and raising up some of my lower scores.Materials UsedElectrodes:  6013: 3/32 = 20 rods7014: 3/32 = 22 rods, 1/8 = 6 rods7018: 3/32 = 10 rods, 1/8 = 5 rodsTotal = 63 rods = ~$13Steel:1/8" x 1.5" x 4" plates = 403/16" x 1.5" x 6" = 14 used for lap jointsTotal = 54 plates = $27, Total Cost = ~$40Materials Used Running Total = $17 + $10 + $24 + $24 + $29 + $40 = $144You might wonder... how am I doing compared to the other 9 student?I saw the welds of about 5 guys who brought up their pieces to be graded.  Of those folks, one was better than me and four were worse.So, I'm doing just fine & I'm having fun! Oh yeah, turns out that firework type sparker I brought in two weeks ago is continuing to have effects.  If you recall, I used one on the instructor as a joke.  He liked it and he took my second one and passed it on to an apprentice, who used it to play a trick on an older crabby welder.  Instructor told me tonight, with great delight, that "we had created a monster".  The apprentice bought a whole pack of sparklers and today at end of day placed one in all the other apprentices rod holders... results to be relayed next week!Only another 3 classes to go! Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Can you take the classes for Credit/no credit?  then no worries about gradesTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Rick, You have vastly improved in your welding.  congrats.
Reply:Doing well there Rick. Next term you can do horizontal welds, then on to vertical and overhead. If you think you are having trouble now, just wait until you hit vertical... Just a thought, You might take in a few of your alum rods  and some alum and see what the teacher can do with them. Be an interesting comparision to what you did before..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald ReaganOriginally Posted by soutthpawCan you take the classes for Credit/no credit?  then no worries about grades
Reply:When you break it down that way Rick, it certainly is a great value. Nice work!  As for the hood, have you considered getting one of these? Cheap and comfortable. http://www.bettymills.com/shop/produ...1-TN6-WAV.htmlLast edited by chopnhack; 11-15-2011 at 10:07 PM.AC-180 Lincolnwelder circa '50's
Reply:chophack - check your PMs.  Thanks for the reference to Betty Mills 'pirate' scull caps!  The thing is those don't stop light coming in from the back and sides of the hood.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Light coming in the back of the hood... never thought of that before! I weld out in the driveway with the sun straight over my head, I bet its a lot easier to see without all that back lighting!!! OMG I feel pretty dumb now, LOL  I guess I'll find a t shirt or something and create my own darth welder!AC-180 Lincolnwelder circa '50's
Reply:Originally Posted by chopnhack...I guess I'll find a t shirt or something and create my own darth welder!
Reply:I'm not posting much these days, but Rick I wanted say how proud I am/we are that you grabbed this course up and are doing well.   Your welds are great, I've been in that class here at AWC  and came from MIG mostly; stick is an eye opener  I hope you finsh strong, get your A and enjoy it all theway.  This is the best way to show younger fellas who are interested in weldng and WW that we practice what we preach, always safe and done right the first time.   BretLincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Hey Papa, good to see you again hope all is well. You need up keep us updated in your other thread..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hey Rick,I like to sit back a spell, as all we "'ol-timers" do, & just observe the progression with anyone engaging in "re-learning" the proper methods/techniques after months or years of "doing it their way". It takes a bit to swallow some pride, especially the youngsters, & admit their welding/applications were really crappy to begin with & proper instruction with a good school/instructor will yield vast improvements.You have made superb strides in your welding comprehension/application with the SMAW process. Your interest & "hunger" to learn proper welding techniques definitely gets an A+ from this 'ol-timer. I know, many times, the majority of youngsters who frequent here & other forums, get a bit frosted when they are criticized or corrected a bit regarding their welds & techniques. It is not to demean....it is to simply point out mistakes & provide sound suggestions for improvements. Some take it in stride, others do not. I always try to project that mistakes are a learning tool.....nothing more, nothing less.Like some of the other 'ol-timers here, I learned early at age 12 from an uncle who took the time to teach me. He was a real bugger as far as learning the proper techniques & having the results be first class. Yup.....was lucky.....he cared. I love SMAW & rarely go out on a mobile job that doesn't need "stick" to get-er-done on the heavier repairs. Then there is always the possibility that Ma Nature is having her weather period & totally uncontrollable, as most women each month. Nothing comes close to that gool 'ol stick unit.Anyway, my kudos to you.......you've done well.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLion... I'm not posting much these days...
Reply:Class # 7+Tonight Class #8 didn't happen!  Rats!Another new building problem... this time (6:45PM) the special ventilation system that sucks up all the smoke and fumes from the welding stations was "banging".  About every 40 seconds, whether the fan was on or off, there came a loud slamming noise from inside large 5 x 5 ft ductwork on the other side of the wall.  Instructor called the front office and a workman/electrician arrived about 7:00PM.  We all left the welding shop; most of us went for a coffee talk with the instructor and were out of there at 8:15.  Total waste of time!Yeah, they will add another class onto the course - but that extends us further into December - from last class being on the 5th to now on the 12th... unless we experience more problems and are there over Christmas! In between last week's Class #7 and what I call tonight's Class #7+, I did some practice welds at home, mostly 6010 or 6011 since that's what I need to complete my scoring sheet.    Might as well look at some home-work pictures...By this time I was tired of burning 6010 or 6011 so I tried some 7014, 6013 andd 7018.I changed from 3/32" electrodes on 1/8" plates to 1/8" electrodes on 3/16" plates.I'm kind of bummed out at not having a real welding class tonight... ah well, that's life. Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Class #8 November 28, 2011We got into the lab 15 minutes early and I got all set up with 1/8" & 3/16" steel plates and 3/32" and 1/8" 6010.No demos tonight, 15 minute instructor talk and away we went - straight into welding at 7:15 PM.My personal focus tonight was 6010 electrode positive; I had 4 boxes to fill on my score chart - Lap and Tee joints with 3/32" and 1/8" electrodes.6010(+)Did OK here:Using 1/8" rod, completed 3/16" thick Tee joint - scored a BUsing 1/8" rod, completed 3/16" thick lap joint - scored a BUsing 3/32" rod, completed 1/8" thick Tee joint - scored an AUsing 3/32" rod, completed 1/8" thick lap joint - scored an AMy score card now looks like this - with all 16 boxes completed.Electrodes.................3/32 rod with 1/8 Plate...............1/8 rod with 3/16 Plate...................................Lap............Tee............................Lap.  ..........Tee6013 (-).........................B+...............B......  .......................B+..............A-7014 (+)........................A-................B..............................B..  .............A-7018 (+)........................A-................B..............................A-...............B-6010 (+)........................A.................A....  .........................B.................B6011 (AC)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Great, the pressure is off me!   I passed the course!The last two remaining classes, I can focus on improving my technique... and maybe raising some of those B's up to A's.I asked the instructor how I was doing relative to the rest of the class.  He said I was ahead of everyone - the first one finished.  Some guys were only half way along, focussing on getting 'A's in each separate electrode/plate configuration.  He said he prefers just getting them all done fast as possible, then with the pressure off, going back to work on the lower grades.Lincoln V350Pro...issues!With the 1/8 inch 6010 electodes, I started out with 115 amps but quickly dropped to 100, then 90 and finally 85 amps.  My V350Pro was very aggressive tonight... and I didn't much like it!  Changed from 'crisp' to 'soft' arc but no joy.Again with 3/32 inch 6010 electrodes - the same problem.  I started out at 80 amps and dropped down as low as 45.  At 45 amps, the arc was fierce acting like I was running at 90 amps, yet when the slag came off, the welds were cold!  Back up to 60 amps and the results were... sort of alright.  Darn arc went out on me three times too - WTF ???  Anyway, that darn aggressive arc - made it a challenge to avoid undercut on the vertical plates of my Tee joints and to avoid chewing away the edge of the upper plates when doing lap joints.  I did run a few 1/8" 7018 electrodes and the arc was more tamed but still punchy.  My home Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 has a much softer and nicer arc, especially noticeable when making lap joints, it doesn't bite so hard and chew into the upper plate and I get a nice weld profile and better fills.I asked the instructor about the Lincoln V350Pro.  Instructor said he hated it.  Whoa - change in attitude from a couple of weeks ago!I said, "Me too!"  Tonight my machine was a 'bit*h'... maybe somebody changed some hidden settings that I don't know about?CEP, any help here?Materials UsedElectrodes:  6010 1/8" = 20 electrodes6010 3/32" = 36 electrodes7018 1/8" = 5 electrodesTotal = 63 rods = ~$12Steel:3/16" x 1.5" x 6" plates = 151/8" x 1.5" x 4" plates = 24Total = 39 plates = $23 Total Materials Cost = ~$35Materials Used, Running Total = $17 + $10 + $24 + $24 + $29 + $40 +$35 = $179Oh yeah, recall the instructor's apprentice at his work place that bought a whole pack of sparklers and placed one in all the other apprentices rod holders...  Well, it seems that caused quite a ruckess, a few upset apprentices but then it all went down as a great joke - with all the apprentices waving sparkers around like at a party.  However, when their welding instructors returned from having their smoke break, they took a dim view!  My instructor thought it was great!Only 2 classes to go! Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Rick, with all the splatter, it looks like you are still long arcing.  The consistency of your beads are MUCH better.  I can tell you are getting your hand at it.  The splatter may be from too much arc force.  I don't see where you mentioned any adjustment of it.  A lot of guys will turn the arcforce up when using F3 electrodes.  I tend to set my amps, then set my arcforce till I get the results I want.  The F3 electrodes by their nature will have greater arcforce due to the flux.  you typically don't need to add to it.
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungRick, with all the splatter, it looks like you are still long arcing.  The consistency of your beads are MUCH better.  I can tell you are getting your hand at it.  The splatter may be from too much arc force.  I don't see where you mentioned any adjustment of it.  A lot of guys will turn the arcforce up when using F3 electrodes.  I tend to set my amps, then set my arcforce till I get the results I want.  The F3 electrodes by their nature will have greater arcforce due to the flux.  you typically don't need to add to it.
Reply:I have a reoccuring problem with my filet welds on Tee joints - undercut on the vertical plate.Always the vertical plate.  I suspect that I must have a longer arc length to the vertical plate than to the horizontal plate... and it's that longer arc that cuts into the vertical plate.  I've tried some angle changes... like lowering my hand to direct the arc more into the vertical plate but ... no joy.Any suggestions?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:I've never done stick, but with a MIG, I'd flatten the angle toward horizontal and raise the nozzle a bit vertically to hit the rear wall maybe an 1/8" or so above the corner, instead of pointing directly into it. Can you weld a horizontal stringer without it getting all saggy at the bottom and chewed up at the top?XMT304 (school)SP125+ (home)HF 4x6 BandsawGood judgement comes from experience and much of that comes from bad judgement.
Reply:Rick, slow your progression so you have more fill in your weld bead, shorten your arc so you cool your weld pool,  and aim the weld more toward the vertical plate.
Reply:OK Scott - thanks for the tips... I'll try those in combination.Yeah, I must still be long arcing some because I feel 'forced' to move more quickly than I've observed the instructor move... thus I don't get enough fill.  Long arc would explain the undercut too.I also suspect that I almost drag the rod along the horizontal plate - using it as a guide... but that would tend to make the arc longer to the vertical surface.  Maybe I should force myself to use the vertical plate as a guide.  Perhaps, in the end, I may end up grazing along both plates.Last edited by Rick V; 12-01-2011 at 01:39 PM.Reason: Some more pointsRick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:here is a picture from miller's handbook.  make sure you are welding at a 45* angle to the joint. Attached Images
Reply:remember that you have to keep pushing the rod into the weld and you are traveling away from the bead. Else the arc will keep burning the rod and thus long arcing.  Its always a 3 dimensional movement away from the bead and into the joint at the same time.   I am guilty of this, and not pushing in enough filler sometimes when not paying full attention to the weld..Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Your start looks good say the 1st 1/2 to 3/4", but then things go down hill from there.  Nice even ripples and a good 45 deg angle to the fillet that's nice and even at the top and bottom with no undercut or cold lap. From the spots here and there that look filled more and have less undercut, I'd say you are going too fast. My guess is that you strike the arc, pause for a second to let the puddle build and then run like crazy and it can't catch up unless you pause to adjust yourself as the rod burns down. That would explain why there's taller spots here and there where you don't have the undercut. Take a good look at how much rod the instructor has left when he finishes a demo. Your rod should be about the same length. If yours is longer, you are tracking to fast. if it's shorter, then you need to speed up some. at home weld an open topped V in some angle. When you get a nice even bead where the slag peels up on it's own, note the length of the weld and the amount of rod used. That should be almost the exact same amount of rod it takes to do a good fillet over the same distance.Near the end it looks like you might have wandered out on the lower plate a bit instead of staying in tight. That would increase the arc length and add to the undercut issues. I see students have that issue frequently. They are so absorbed in trying to watch the puddle, that they forget they also need to pay attention to where they are going. As you practice more and more and your position improves or you get used to it better, your body will naturally track the same way every time. It annoys the students when I  simply look away and run dead straight beads compared to their wavy ones. It's a good position and simple body memory after doing it over and over so many times..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks Scott, soutthpaw and DSW.I think souttpaw got it with, "remember that you have to keep pushing the rod into the weld".  Yes that has been the problem since the beginning of the course - for me and most all the studfents... that tendancy to long arc; much better to keep pushing in there even if it means almost dragging and possibly sticking a rod.DSW, thanks but don't perform too detailed an analysis on that one weld; I just chose that weld as a clear example of my worst undercut - because it photographed well.  Always a challenge to photograph with one lens what your two eyes see in stereo. I do like your idea, "at home weld an open topped V in some angle. When you get a nice even bead where the slag peels up on it's own, note the length of the weld and the amount of rod used. That should be almost the exact same amount of rod it takes to do a good fillet over the same distance."I think I'll try the same Tee joint in a more flat V-like position (1F) and follow your advice, then move back to the upside down T configuration (2F).Scott, most my beads do have more fill, again I choose that weld because of the clear undercut.  Still your advice is helpful and much appreciated.Thanks guys!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:good for you..... i am going to do that one of these days just for shiggles and grinsbobs77vet/37ford4drEastwood digital TIG200HH190Lincoln Invertec 155sLincoln weldpak 100sears/craftsman (lincoln) 50a 240v buzz boxO/A rig Harris gaugesnexion cut 50 dxchicago electric (HF) 240v spot welder
Reply:Nice to see your actually learning how to run a proper weld bead with stick Rick. I still see alot of inconsistency but you are making great improvement.Now...lets see you place your plates in vertical position and run your weld beads vertical up (or something other than flat). Then we will call you a welder.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Hey snoeproe... Ha, ha. Well I'm in a course called Arc-I... a credit course "introduction to Shield Metal Arc Welding (SMAW).  welding basic joints using various electrodes (6010, 6011, 6013, 7014 & 7018) on 1/8 and 3/16 milled steel in the flat position."  Pre-requisite was the Oxy-acetylene course.The next step would be Arc-II."This course is designed to provide the necessary knowledge and techniques associated with TSSA (pipe) and CWB (structural) standards.  All welding is carried out in the flat, horizontal, vertical, and overhead positions. The student is required to prepare 3/8 milled steel plates by oxy-acetylene flame cutting to meet TSSA and CWB standards. These plates are prepared in single vee butt and single bevel/square with back up. Electrodes used are limited to F3 (6010/11) and F4 (7018).For medical reasons, I can't take the follow up course this winter.Realize too that these are 'continuing education' courses - not full-time programs.The ARC-I instructor said last week that the college doesn't run Arc-II very often because the number of students that apply seldom reaches the 10 minimum needed to run the course. Having completed the prerequisite oxy-acet & Arc I courses, most go on to take MIG or TIG - which is often all they really wanted to take in the first place. Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Class #9 December 05, 2011I got into the lab 15 minutes early and got all set up with 3/16" steel plates.I burned a few 7018+ electrodes then stopped for a demo.We had a 15 minute instructor talk, chalk-board drawing and demo of multi-pass welding.Then, back to the grind...I decided tonight I would try to improve some of my lower grades:a) I had a B- on 3/16" T with 7018+, tonight I managed an A- !     Instructor came around and said my consecutive 7018 welds, 14 in all, looked good. b) I had a B with 3/16" T with 6010+, tonight I managed a B+ ! My score card now looks like this.Electrodes.................3/32 rod with 1/8 Plate...............1/8 rod with 3/16 Plate...................................Lap............Tee............................Lap.  ..........Tee6013 (-).........................B+...............B......  .......................B+..............A-7014 (+)........................A-................B..............................B..  .............A-7018 (+)........................A-................B..............................A-...............A-6010 (+)........................A.................A....  .........................B................B+6011 (AC)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I had a nice passing grade and now wanted to see & learn something new.I wanted to try using  1/8 inch 7018+ for both a horizontal butt joint and a vertical filet weld on 3/16 inch thick plates.I set up the plates, one set for the instructor and one set for me.Horizontal ButtThe instructor pointed his rod slightly up and was actually pushing the rod (not draging).  He did a beautiful horizontal butt weld - looked almost like a nice flat position bead.I tried it later - not so great, wandered all over the place and my bead width varied a lot - no slag though...I'm keeping a tight arc.  I need more practice is all.Vertical Up Filet WeldInstructor said up front this was not his strength (overhead was).  First he ran a stringer up the corner of the T joint... a mite lumpy.  Then the ran a second stringer overlapping the first on the right side, followed by a third stringer overhapping the first on the left side. (Slag was removed between passes.)  Then he demonstrated a weave, sort of like a zig-zag stitch, pause on the left, quick across the centre moving up a mite to the right, pause on the right, quick across the centre moving up a mite to the left, pause on the left - repeat until weld is done.  Looked fairly good when the slag came off. He said he hadn't done that in over a year so was very rusty.I tried it later - Yikes - Lumpy City!  Instructor called it 'Clumps of Grapes'.  I can see where vertical up would take some considerable time and skill to master.I have to say one thing, no matter how crappy the weld looked, the instructor is now finding something nice to say about it... "Well at least there is no slag" or "Well at least there is no undercut".  This is a pleasant change from the earlier comments in the first classes such as, "That's not worth grading", "You're long arcing it - see all that slag", "Would have been nice except for that - see that undercut?"  Still, from the beginning he would always point out that small 1/2 to 1 inch of excellent weld in the middle of your mess.   That was motivating - "Look you showed you can do it there, work on making it all like that." Materials UsedElectrodes:  6010 1/8" = 5 electrodes7018 1/8" = 35 electrodesTotal = 40 rods = ~$7Steel:3/16" x 1.5" x 6" plates = 301/8" x 1.5" x 4" plates = 0Total = 30 plates = $30 Total Materials Cost = ~$37Materials Used, Running Total = $17 + $10 + $24 + $24 + $29 + $40 +$35 + $37 = $216In addition to the benefits of instruction, I find the classes good for motivation... it would be darn hard for me keep at welding for 3 hours straight at home.  It just wouldn't happen.Alas, there remains just one more arc-welding class - next week.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet