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So I always take a 50% down deposit up front. 99% of the time that 50% covers all materials plus some. However, recently I got an order from a guy who wanted a complete patio set. It was pretty intricate and I quoted him $1650 for a 5'x5' table and 8 chairs. During the quoting process, he asked if I needed a down deposit, and I simply left it at yes. I didn't say 50%. So when he showed up to give me the final details, he just brought a check made out for $200 and said that should be good enough for a deposit. He was pretty nice so I didn't ask for more. He was in a huge rush for the set and I had some personal affairs that delayed the welding and fabrication so I felt bad for that, but he then asked me to get it powder coated. He didn't do any electronic payments so I wasn't going to ask him to drive an hour back to me just to give me the payment for the powder coating, I made the mistake of trusting him. Powder coating was $450 (I added $550 to the total for $2200 total). Powder coater also was way delayed so I offered to deliver it for free and throw in free fasteners for the wood he was going to put on top. Well today I show up at his house, open up the trailer door, and he goes "oh... yikes". This was the most picky guy in the world, not even joking. He started going off on how it wasn't what he expected it to look like (even though I sent him over 20 pictures and he picked out the powder coat color) and how he didn't like this and that... My favorite was right after I pulled in, he says "there was one thing I noticed on the pictures you sent me, I hope you fixed it", which was part of the design of the chair and they were ALL like that. I will admit, I was very disappointed in the quality of the powder coating. It looked good at first, but during transportation, the paint started to bubble in certain spots and even chipped in others. I offered to go get a refund and get it powder coated by someone else but he refused to take the set and said he didn't want it anymore. "but you can keep the down deposit" he said. After that I got pretty pissed at him and we got into an argument, I was mainly just fighting for payment for the powder coating and remainder of material costs, then he starts insulting me, the set, and my work in general. I honestly think he got a different set while he was waiting for this one, maybe he found one that was more than $200 cheaper that he still liked, and instead of calling and saying he didn't want it, he just let me drive there so he could tell me how it wasn't what he expected. This definitely ruined my day and probably the next few weeks, since I have to see that set sitting in my shop every time I walk back there. I learned a very tough lesson. About $300 in metal, $450 in powder coating, and $50 in gas plus 30 hours of my time and all I got was $200. Now I have to try and get the powder coater to fix the table (The chairs were all good), then I have to finish the set with wood for the chair backs and seats and the table top, and try and sell it and hopefully at least break even. We're at a terrible time for selling patio furniture. So from now on, 50% down deposit. Period. Secondary processes are paid for in advance. Possible contracts will be signed for larger jobs. BUT I get companies that order things from me and they fight hard for 30 day terms, getting a 50% deposit would be next to impossible for most of the companies I've worked with. Where do you guys draw the line on when you take deposits, increasing deposits throughout the job if required, etc? There have been times where people have left me their car to add stuff to, and in cases like those, I take the car as a "deposit that I give back upon completion".John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:I feel for you, man. Sorry it happened.I deal with everyone from the farmer a mile down the road to a national company based in Chicago. Many customers pay upon completion while the larger companies pay at 30-45 days. In almost all of these cases, the customers were referred to me by one or another local business who already knows that their money is good. I do not envy those of you who have to deal with John Q Public. Sooner or later, you just know you're going to get burned. I do my best to steer completely clear of the residential sector.
Reply:I used to not ask for deposits from people who communicated a lot or friends. I got stuck on multiple projects. 50% depost on everything. No exceptions. Not even for friends. Got burned there too.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:The best advise I ever got was from another welding business owner. "You don't want every job". If every thing doesn't go according to the way you want it to, before the job starts, then back away. It's hard to walk away from the money a job can make for you but it's better than losing money.
Reply:Not really responding to your posting, but the guy who does your powder coating seems pretty high to me. I can get a huge ARB style bumper powder-coated nicely for about $100 just outside Austin.Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:Some people do that for sport.It's the ones who look like they have money who are the worst, pickiest, in the biggest hurry, manipulative, fickleContracts, schedules, sketches, colour samples signed off on, payment schedules based on materials and completion benchmarks.It all takes time to do, but as you set standard procedures you get better at it.Professional customers respect a professional process.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12345678910Some people do that for sport.It's the ones who look like they have money who are the worst, pickiest, in the biggest hurry, manipulative, fickleContracts, schedules, sketches, colour samples signed off on, payment schedules based on materials and completion benchmarks.It all takes time to do, but as you set standard procedures you get better at it.Professional customers respect a professional process.
Reply:Stick-man's famous saying, I can sit home doing nothing, and not lose money!"Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:I too took a few painful lessons back when I had my own welding shop. Besides the ones that are purposely out there trying to cheat or take undue advantage of you there's also just a lot of plain dumb goofy idiots that's it's always a losing proposition to try and do business with. And seemed that it was always when you're hurting for work the most was when you let yourself get involved with one of them. Oh man, there's way more to running a successful welding business than just being a good welder / fabricator. And it's not just the danger posed by potential bad customers. There's also all the petty local, state and federal government idiots you're forced to deal with.
Reply:Originally Posted by BobThe best advise I ever got was from another welding business owner. "You don't want every job". If every thing doesn't go according to the way you want it to, before the job starts, then back away. It's hard to walk away from the money a job can make for you but it's better than losing money.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermike10/4 on that bud, iv'e got the hot beef injection aka the meat missle aka the butt bullseye way to many times in the past. Just on peoples nature alone after talking and judging them I probably turn down 25-50% of my side work, and still the occasional boner comes sneaking in lol!
Reply:Jeeze weldermike, I've heard it said many ways but you get the gold star today!! Best regards Bob
Reply:If you sent picture of the job and have all the txts **** him send a letter of payment demands I hate people that try that **** drives me nutz I've dealt with it befor most the time I just squeeze them till they pay and always cover your bases don't do work unless writen down or backed up via email or txt
Reply:Econdron,Can you spruce the complete patio set up, than maybe put it for sale on CL???Someone out there might need one, and maybe you can cut your losses...Just a suggestion.~John
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Damn. Tough deal.I've got the big meat in the rear end a few times over stuff like this so ill spare the details. It's always the same. Probably one of the biggest reasons I don't weld too much anymore. Everyone wants something for nothing and wants to haggle over every penny.I sell machinery for a living. Pretty much the bulk of my income, besides odd lobs and the occasional welding project.For any machine orders it's simple. 100% UP FRONT. You pay, I put the unit together. Turnaround is usually a week to two weeks, depending on backlog. If the prospective customer feels that's unfair, they can go buy a machine from someone else. After I got stuck a few times putting over a weeks worth of labor into a machine, only to have the person either flat out back out, more usually just quit answering their phone or email.I got stuck on a $3600 deal once. Put up money I didn't have to buy parts for the stuff too, only to have the guy get all flaky a week after they told me the check was in the mail.No way it's happening again. If it's a fab job, all costs of materials and any sub out work paid in full up front.Again, I know some won't go for that, but the ones that won't are usually the kind of ppl I don't want to do business with anyways.The customer is NOT always right. I'll tell them to their face if I think that's the case too. I have turned a good share of prospective customers away based on principle and have not once regretted it.Deal with a couple jack offs like this guy and most ppl can understand why.IMHO of course
Reply:Standard: Prior to start, require 100% of all material, consumables, and sub-contract work costs. Balance of labor costs due upon project completion. No exceptions. 100% payment in full always required before product delivered to client. Special: 100% of all material, consumables, sub-contract work, & labor prior to work start. Relegated for custom design/build projects involving substantial CAD work and design time.Use instinct, principled ethics, and common sense to guide your Go/No-Go launch decision. Client equivocates at the above terms & conditions, I walk. No regrets.Last edited by ManoKai; 07-05-2014 at 09:35 PM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Part of the process is having a standardised quote form, which is very easy to create using Word. Have a line for each item - materials, consumables, labor, delivery etc. The form also spells out how the deposit is calculated, when the balance is due, records payment of the deposit, any progress payments, customer's name, phone number, email, description of the job, etc. If using software like Word isn't your strong point then let me know and I can soon create something for you.
Reply:Well thanks for all the advice. What bugged me is just how much time both of us spent in the whole process picking out the design he liked, his modifications, etc, and then to have it all go down the drain in a couple minutes with him just looking at it and saying "Yeah... I don't want it." The things he was complaining about were things like minor grind indentations that you could see when you looked at it from this angle, and how the fillet welds were not perfectly smooth and you could tell it was a weld... etc. I've always been pretty good about weeding out bad customers. I've never actually turned down a job, but the conditions I've set up for some people I had bad feelings about made them walk away. 12345678910 you're exactly right. He was a very wealthy guy and was very picky. Personally, I kinda like the look of something that looks professionally made but you can still see the minor details that let you know it was hand made. I guess he likes the Chinese assembly line work instead.Abec, I wish I still had the texts but my phone doesn't store that many messages and deletes them as it goes on. Too bad there were never any emails... AKWeldshop, you're right. I'm going to get it re-finished, then simply put some Ipa wood down on top. I haven't looked into it yet, but one of my customers who makes wood furniture mentioned there's a guy on my local craigslist selling that stuff for pretty cheap. And I wouldn't have to finish it at all since it's already a matching color and fairly weather proof. I've been looking around on the internet, I may actually get more out of this than the guy would have paid me. I've showed the set to several people and they all said it looks fine as is. Even had one person offer to buy it from me if I was willing to sell it cheap. Well we know all things happen for a reason so whether or not I can sell this for more or less than I originally thought, I still finally learned a good lesson! Cover your bases.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:And DougAustinTX, I've priced out the powder coating to all my local powder coaters. This guy was several hundred below the rest. $100 sounds really cheap. Too cheap... Do you get it sand blasted? Because I know that alone for the set was $200. And I do know that it costs about $50 just to heat up a mid sized oven. I mean sand blasting and powder coating 9 chairs and a large table sounds like a LOT of work, more than $450 worth to me but I'm not complaining. I guess it's possible you're getting it done by one of those guys who's got an automated blasting room and an automated powder coating system?John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Hey post a some pics up of this patio set let's see screw the rich btard atleast we can appreciate some hard work here
Reply:Well said Steve.Quite true.
Reply:50% is a good start. Communication is also key. Sending pictures is not enough. Ask him specific questions and tell him exact details...even get him to come by to take a look at it. Pester HIM about the progress in each step. IF he asks for something extra, tell him, right off the bat, "That is going to cost extra...that was not discussed." Better yet spell out for him what you are going to do for him...in a proposal or a quote. And in big letters say that any changes or alterations must be negotiated in addition to the cost and further deposit is required.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Yeah, being a retired high ranking Army Officer and doing the buy and sell for years, I don't have to tell you anything about dealing with difficult ppl Jerry. You know.The statement above is one of the key reasons I quit doing eBay. It seems ebay's entire business plan and company philosophy revolves around the customer (the buyer) always being right. Give the buyer majority control in a dispute is a cornerstone of their business model. In many cases, a clueless 22 yr old kid is the one handling the dispute, sitting in front of a computer screen, reading a carefully prepared tutorial that walks them thru the dispute process step by step. That person knows nothing about my business or what I sell, or how to set it up or fix it.Yet, that clueless kid will be the one who forces you to capitulate to the buyers demands and issue them a full refund regardless if it is entirely their fault the item failed in the first place. Try fighting them on this and they'll lock you out of your paypal account. If you sell a lot of stuff on eBay, it is entirely necessary that your PP account stays in perfect standing. A buyer can tell eBay just about anything they want and they're gonna give them their money back... Right out of your PP acct too. They could have blown up the machine you sold them by connecting it to the wrong voltage, but all you have to do is claim it didn't work when you got it and guess what??? You're gonna get your money back. It'll be on the seller to deal with it from there.Customers DO NOT, EVER dictate policy to me, or tell me how to do business. It seems however, that that is exactly what sites like eBay teach the ppl that buy there. You, the buyer have full control over the seller. You can dictate to them terms of a sale, terms of a refund and what type of payment the seller must accept.Now I'm not painting every eBay buyer as that kind of person. Not by a long shot. But their business model greatly favors giving an often clueless, ignorant individual a great deal of power and control over how you do business.After doing this for damn near 15 years, I don't think I need any help in that department. My work and business practices speak for themselves. If anyone wishes to doubt that beyond a degree that would be reasonable to anyone in the first of an impression, I don't need their business anyways.Boils down to respect. Every time. I don't have to like every person that I do business with, but they better damn sure show me the same respect I would them. If they can't do that, or don't feel they have to, they're not worth my time. Regardless of how much they're willing to pay me. IMHO of course
Reply:Sorry to hear you got shafted. Sounds like he complained to get out of paying for it. I always ask for a 50% deposit on any custom order. The only exception is if it's one of my regular customers and a small order, but if it's big I'll ask for 50% to cover materials. You can also check some local furniture stores or ace hardware stores. They may be willing to put it in their stores on commission. Show us some pics of it.
Reply:For Custom work i always go for 100% up front, and get it in writing what the guy wants and thats it, If the guy didn't trust you he wouldn't go to you in the first place. Here in the UK after the Recession people have woken up now to all the scams and rip offs that have happened, Now if they have the money and they want something custom made its 100% up front.There are always people who know how to scam others like your patio set for $200 In a scenario like that i would of done the welding and fabbing and then told the guy to take it himself to the power coaters, Its not part of you inital quote, why do it?You just need to be on the ball all the time nowadays, and looking at this guy its a bit of a nightmare who can you trust.I've been charging people 100% up front for years with no hassles, They pay cash or direct to my Bank account, I also take credit and debit cards which has seen me more sales from people who use this method of payment.Finally Buddy, Never let anyone dicate to you how much deposit they are leaving you, right away they have control of your sale not you, so stand up and say "Hang in there, i want 100% as i don't know who you are!" If they still want it they'll pay if they hope to scam you, they'll argue and walk away. EasyHere's some pictures before finishing. The ones I took afterwards I don't have with me. It wasn't a particularly complicated design, but it was tough getting all the angles and bends to line up in a "comfortable" set up. I think it will look really nice once I get some wood on it! The wood sits recessed in the chairs and tables and ends up being flush with the sides.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:@ Econdron - nice clean and industrial style. Looks very professional. Evident you poured your heart into the design/build. Decked in wood, they'll radiate! Your powder coating costs are consistent with market value, especially here. Sending Aloha that another prospective client, one who values custom metal creations, will purchase your items. Your asking price is fair and reasonable. That sketch client who waffled is a tool, a tool class you will want to avoid in the future."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:As controller for a multimillion dollar company, I absolutely crucify guys who start work without a signed contract and a PO. Granted you are in a smaller environment, people don't issue POs for their personal projects, etc. But there is no reason that you can't have a standard one page contract created by a lawyer that you get signed for everything you do. Something that outlines how you recover your costs if the customer cancels the order (cost of materials plus a 5% handling fee??), payment terms, your rights if the customer doesn't pay, etc. Again, it doesn't really need to be more than 1 page. and you should use it for everything. We have a standard contract we use for our smaller projects ($100K to $5M) and it is only 2 pages long.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:50 % down ,don't start till the mony is clear and make sure your finished product can be completed with material and wages paid for that half,the other half covers profit and overhead,i've learned the hard way,had a iron fence to do once,got 50 down and after the footings were dug,absent yuppie customer silver tonged me to stop for a few days while him and his sweatheart changed location on fence a "minor amount", well this jerk changed his mind and stopped my progress four times, so i put him on low priority schedule, then i found the time to get'r on line again and he kept stopping again,,well he ate up more than 1600 dollars of time,so i made a goatpen for my goats out of the material i was stuck with... what i sell is one thing,and that's the only thing i have to sell, MY TIME!!!! no body beats me out of a minute anymore...any man who does not honour labour is a scum bag.period..Last edited by iron mike; 07-06-2014 at 11:17 AM.face all times with a positive mental attitude,then and only then will you have done your best. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:06:30