Multimatic 200??

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Hi everyone. Thanks for the incredible source of knowledge and experience here. Yes unfortunately, I've got yet another “what welder should I buy” thread. Sort of. Insert your standard excuses here about having read all the threads and tried to do the research myself.I’m looking to buy a small project/hobby machine. TIG is top priority. MIG and/or stick capability (especially MIG) would be very nice pluses, but are not essential. I want to do metal artwork, maybe some furniture, and just little around-the-house kind of projects. I may also fabricate some little brackets or things for my Jeep, but will defer to actual qualified folks for anything with road-going safety implications.I’ve got about as much budget as I want, would prefer to buy new, and like to get a machine I can grow with and appreciate for years. But I don’t want to blow money just for the sake of having something way above my skill level and intended use. I was trained and qualified as a nuclear welder for the Navy a couple decades ago, and picked up some basic MIG techniques in a metal fab shop after I got out. I then put down the torch, got into computers, and have missed playing in the puddle ever since. I’ve got a small garage that is all concrete and metal aside from one wall, and have 220 run to a blank outlet (no plug yet). I plan to set up all my metal fabrication equipment along one of the concrete side walls of the garage and do most of my work in the garage with the door open or in the 10-20 feet immediately outside. Considering space constraints and the bonus of being able to take it with me somewhere, I think I’m headed toward an inverter machine.After reading, searching, and reading more on this forum and elsewhere, you folks just about had me talked into a 200 DX. I doubt I’d ever outgrow it, but I didn't really want to spend that much, especially by the time I got it dressed. The Diversion 180 looked interesting, but hasn't gotten as many nice comments here as something like the TA 186 in a similar price range.So, I took another bit of advice from the forum here and went to talk to the folks at my local supply. They pretty quickly and clearly converged on the Multimatic 200, which kind of caught me off-guard as I just haven’t seen many comments on it. I really like the ability to do all 3 processes in such a portable and compact machine, and while I’m not crazy about the limited duty cycle, in honesty I suspect it would be years before I hit that limit, if ever.What do you folks think? Any good/bad reports on the Multimatic 200 or recommendations on other machines to consider? Will it likely last me for years, or will I be cursing its limits and wishing I’d bellied up for a 200 DX?
Reply:I really think you should look at a Tweco 181 fabricator.. about half the cost of a Multimatic 200.. No 120 volt input like the Miller. but add a 141, and it solves that. Still have $500.00 in the bank..Esab/Lorch ET-220iEsab 160i caddyThermal LM-200 Lincoln feedersThermal Pee-Wee 85sThermal 60i- 3phase /RPC powered (Beast)Thermal Drag-gun 35CINE 1500 Klutch 140i
Reply:I have a Multimatic, have had it for maybe a month.  It's the only 'small' welder I've owned, and it performs great within its' amperage limits with MIG and stick.  Haven't used TIG at all yet.  It was the right buy for what I wanted -- something portable, multiprocess, that would run off 120V and 220V.  Something that would get small jobs done without having to drag miles of lead from my engine drive when there was a 110V outlet 10' away.I can tell you firsthand that on 110V it runs 3/32 7018 great, runs both 3/32 and 1/8 6010 great, and has the correct arc characteristics to run .030 wire with CO2 with minimal spatter.The Multimatic would probably make a fine main machine for a hobbyist unless they were wanting to TIG aluminum or work with heavier steel.  However, there are less spendy choices out there as Brand X has already mentioned.  The Twecos have a great reputation, and you don't always need to spend big money to get great quality.
Reply:All the 3 n 1 welders out there are essentially MIG welders with stick/TIG as a compromised afterthought.  The Miller is no exception.No high frequency start on the TIG, and DC only.  Note: the 200 has a decent lift arc.  Just not the same as HF with a pedal.The Multimatic does have internal gas valves (2 actually, one for MIG and one for TIG), and you can add a pedal (standard Miller with an adapter or a special pedal that is Multimatic only).It is expensive.  I'd much rather had paid $1000 - $1200 for MIG only. Buy it a great MIG welder that can on occasion be used as stick and on even fewer occasions as a TIG.  And in my opinion, it is a great MIG - very easy to use, setup and lays down a very smooth spatter free weld (Lincoln L56 wire .030 with C25).  In fact there are many projects that I would have TIG'd in the past that I now just plug in the 200 and go do town.  As I like to put it, its stupid easy to make really nice looking welds.  When ever I show someone how to weld, its this machine that I use.If you want TIG, hit ebay for a used Maxstar 200DX or SD or consider new HTP (Invertig 221). Esab are 220 only.  Lincoln small TIGs are hard to find used and can be seriously expensive new.  If you are thinking the smaller welders like Miller Diversion or whatever Lincoln and Hobart carry, look at the used market.  They are good welders, but they are limited and as such there are many who want to upgrade to bigger machines. All these companies carry parts for older models - that means if you see one for sale you can go the websites and find instruction manuals.  Easy to do research. If you have the space and 230V service panel nearby, for TIG get a larger transformer based machine.  Used Syncrowave 250 (or even 350 - often 350s are cheaper) or the Lincoln equivalent, woudl be a machine that you could give to your grandkids.  Typically super reliable.  Used they are typically cheaper than the good inverter machines.  They lack some of the aluminum capability. p.s. I have not TIG'd with the 200.  As for stick, it seems to be comparable to the Maxstar - but I'm by a long shot not a pro with stick.  Stick welding for me means re-attach this rusty thing that just fell off in the field.The autoset works for stick welding as well.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Looks like the ability to do AC tig would be your deal breaker here.  No one make a fully contained squarewave machine with all the processes and AC tig.  Miller makes the Shopmaster, which is ACDC and CCCV.  A transformer powersource machine that needs add ons for processes to function. Not portable and sine wave.  If you're willing to accept just tig for now, you cannot go wrong with the Dynasty.  As you pointed out though, it's got a ton of bells and whistles that you may never use and are paying for.  I'd have no problem with the TA186.  Seems to be doing well.  I had the older 185 and I currently have the 300 and I'm really happy.  I sold my Dynasty 200 when I found my TA.  All the tigs will stick weld, so you get that process as a bonus.  Then you look around Craig's list for a used mig and you're done.  If you take your time hunting, you will find a good deal.
Reply:Go with the Tweco/Thermal Arc 3 in 1 machine. They make a 140, 181, 211 and 251. All solids machines and they are not highly de rated amp wise in cc mode like the multimatic is.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Very much appreciate the recommendations on 3-in-1 machines, but con_fuse9 and Drf255 really got my attention pointing out how the 3-in-1 composition tends to compromise the TIG capabilities and performance. Makes sense - just hadn't thought about it. As I said, TIG is my priority. Having the other processes as well would really just be a nice bonus. Seeing as a lot of the TIG machines can also do stick, I'm starting to lean back toward picking a good TIG machine to start and maybe just picking up a used MIG machine when I find the right one at the right deal.In terms of size, I'm a little reluctant to go with a big transformer machine. My garage is actually kind of small, so space is at a bit of a premium. Plus I like the idea of being able to haul it out in the driveway easily or even throw it in the back of the Jeep and take it to a family/friend's place if I want to. While not a showstopper, the ability to run on 110 would make it a bit more useful for me on that front.Long-standing companies with good reputations for quality, durability, and customer service are important to me. So, it seems like I'm back to trying to decide on the price-point vs capability trade-off with the leading contenders being a TA 186 or a Dynasty 200 DX. (Any others I really should drag in the mix?) Just wondering how long it would take me to outgrow a TA 186 (if I ever would), as there's obviously a huge price differential between the two - especially by the time I have them all set up and ready to go. Also, it looks like the TA 186 is 220 input only? The 200 DX says it can run on anything from 115-460, single or three phase. Does that mean I could run the Dynasty 200 DX on a 110 outlet if I took it somewhere? I didn't see any mention of the multi-voltage plug, like on the Diversion 180.
Reply:The Dynasty is dual voltage and can be ran on 110, but don't expect a great duty cycle, especially on AC.  in a pinch, you can take it somewhere and use it.Portability is great, but remember what you'll have to lug with you.  A tank, reg, hose, ground clamp, pedal and torch.   While that seems great, its usually easier to transport the small jobs to you.
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeGo with the Tweco/Thermal Arc 3 in 1 machine. They make a 140, 181, 211 and 251. All solids machines and they are not highly de rated amp wise in cc mode like the multimatic is.
Reply:Since this thread was originally about the Multimatic 200, I want to speak to the following quote for a minute, as I've run across this idea a time or two here and there on the interwebz. Originally Posted by con_fuse9....p.s. I have not TIG'd with the 200.  As for stick, it seems to be comparable to the Maxstar - but I'm by a long shot not a pro with stick.....
Reply:Originally Posted by tbone550Since this thread was originally about the Multimatic 200, I want to speak to the following quote for a minute, as I've run across this idea a time or two here and there on the interwebz.I haven't TIG'd with the Multimatic either, although I did buy the contractor's kit to put on the shelf for the future.  But I've spent some time stick welding with it, and have reached a different conclusion about its' abilities.All reports I've heard of Maxstar 150's are that they don't run 6010 and have to use 6011 instead.  My Multimatic can and absolutely does run 6010.  Maintains a standard arc length and doesn't snuff out, with both 3/32 and 1/8 Lincoln 5P+ rods, and all this on 110V.  This is a big difference between the Multimatic and the Maxstar 150.
Reply:Originally Posted by tbone550All reports I've heard of Maxstar 150's are that they don't run 6010 and have to use 6011 instead.  My Multimatic can and absolutely does run 6010.  Maintains a standard arc length and doesn't snuff out, with both 3/32 and 1/8 Lincoln 5P+ rods, and all this on 110V.  This is a big difference between the Multimatic and the Maxstar 150.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'm curious how you run 6010. My understanding is the Maxstar 150 will run 6010 if you don't whip and pause with them. That is usually where problems lie. Those that do circles or drag the rod maintaining a consistent arc length, don't really have as many issues running 6010 with the 150's.I'm curious how well the Multimatic does when running 6010 whipping.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'm curious how you run 6010. My understanding is the Maxstar 150 will run 6010 if you don't whip and pause with them. That is usually where problems lie. Those that do circles or drag the rod maintaining a consistent arc length, don't really have as many issues running 6010 with the 150's.
Reply:I'm curious -- does the Maxstar 150 have an adjustment for arc force?
Reply:No, just an amperage knob - they work good though Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by tbone550I'm curious -- does the Maxstar 150 have an adjustment for arc force?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThat I can't answer as I have the Maxstar 200 myself.La la la.... Too much info! What the two of you do when alone doesn't need to become public knowledge. If the two of you are into S&M, please keep it to yourselves and NO picts! Don't make me  drop the ban hammer on you. .
Reply:I knew I should've picked out something else to compare it to...dang it!  Yeah, one of the things that I was confused about before buying the Multimatic was whether it had an arc force adjustment or not.  The answer is...yes and no.  There's no infinite DIG adjustment like on my XMT 304, or even a 4-point adjustment like on my TB302.  Instead the program asks you whether you're using 60xx or 70xx rods.  I'm sure that's where the program changes the arc force setting.  As far as the stick autoset....how it works is you select a material thickness and your rod diameter, and it shows you a graphic of the adjustment range and a pointer showing where it automatically set your amperage near the middle of that range.  Then, with the autoset still on, you can adjust the amperage within that range, watching the little pointer move to the 'cold' or the 'hot' side of the range.  It's probably good for learning.  To be honest though, I don't use the autoset on stick mode.  If you turn autoset off, you have a continuously adjustable amperage just like on any normal machine.  I pretty much know how I like my rods to burn, and I adjust the Multimatic's control to get the bead profile and arc that I want.I've also used the MIG autoset, which has you pick the wire size and material thickness.  I find the autoset will get you in the right neighborhood (I don't do a lot of thin stuff as a rule, so it's nice to let the machine get me into the right zone), and then I adjust from there.  If I'm in a hurry, I lie to the machine and tell it the material is 1 thickness thicker than what it really is, and that's pretty close to the bead profile that I want.One thing I really like is that the machine's rotary process selector dial has different settings for 100% CO2 and 75/25.  When I bought the machine I also bought a cylinder of straight CO2 for it, which I'd never used as a MIG gas before.  My LWS discouraged me from trying CO2, saying the spatter would be awful.  However, the truth is that although there are a lot more sparks than with 75/25, almost none of the spatter sticks to the material.  Obviously Miller spent some time optimizing the Multimatic's programming for CO2.  And the bead profile is very similar to what I'd expect for 75/25 as long as I lie to the machine about material thickness and get it's baseline set to run a little hotter.
Reply:This is all really helpful info. (Well, most of it anyway... I think there may have been a post in there that wasn't quite what I was looking for. )At any rate, my biggest problem is that none of this really speaks to my primary interest, which is TIG. You folks have convinced me that the Multimatic would very likely be able to serve my needs for quite some time on the stick and MIG fronts; but I still don't know if this translates for TIG or if I'm going to be wishing for a better machine in a year or two. As I've stated before, the additional functionality of stick and MIG is a very nice benefit that I will certainly use, but I don't really want it to come at the expense of limited capabilities with a TIG torch.Does anyone on this board have any experience actually using the TIG functionality of the Multimatic?
Reply:Hey diddyball, most (artwork covers a wide range) of what you are looking to do with this machine are things that many people wouldn't waste time TIG'ing, and would use MIG instead.  Assuming you just want to TIG for TIG'ing's sake, I'd expect the Multimatic would do what you want.  There are a lot of people out there who are scratch-starting or lift-arc'ing every day and producing beautiful beads.But if you want AC welding capability, high frequency start, or fancy options, you're going to be disappointed with it.  I can tell you from past experience that if you 'settle' for a machine that doesn't do everything you want, you aren't going to be happy with it in the future.  Better to save the money and go for what you really want.
Reply:I generally don't respond to posts even though I read a few.  The Mods are always trying to encourage me to post because I do so very infrequently.  This thread started by "diddyball" brings up a point that seems to be all-to-readily missed, not only on this forum, but all of the forums of which I am a member.  We fail to address the specific issue that the OP brings up...in other words, we get too caught up in ourselves and our own issues and neglect to answer the OP's questions. I'll apologize in advance, in the event I ruffle some feathers (not a new experience for me) and I'm not trying to single anyone out on this forum or any others, but.....here we go. Diddyball is seeking advice on purchasing a TIG welder; it's his "top priority".  So what exactly does whipping 6010 with a Maxstar 150 or the virtues of the Multimatic 200 have to do with TIG welders?  It's pretty obvious when one reads "diddyball's" post # 20 that his quest for information died somewhere after post #2 so I'll take up the challenge and give a few of my "highly opinionated" opinions based on some of my experiences. Since the thread seems to lean toward "Blue lovers", I'll go in that direction, which simply means I do not endorse one manufacturer over another; I own red, blue, and black & grey (Hypertherm) and maybe someday yellow & black (ESAB).  IMHO diddy, your timing is perfect (that doesn't happen often in my world).  Miller released a new Syncrowave machine this year and recently upgraded it to accommodate new TIG welders' needs.  Any TIG welder (human) will be familiar with the new Syncrowave series; it has been cutting edge since its birth.  The Syncrowave 210 fulfills your needs and you won't out grow it anytime in the future.  Visit the Miller website to check out it and the other suggestions I'm going to make. First: the Syncrowave 210 has much of the heralded Dynasty 200DX's features at half the cost.  How about expanded AC frequency control, yeah once you use it you will love it, variable pulsing both AC and DC, memory card slot for software upgrades and many others (pull up the spec sheet for this machine on Miller's site).  While it's not truly portable like the 200, weighs in at 133.5 lbs., you could surly get it into a vehicle for a mobile repair job.  It comes as a complete package, not as a "you figure out what you need and hopefully remember to get everything when you order your new machine".  All you will need to add is the necessary gas, 100% Argon in this case, consumables, a torch accessory kit, PPE and something metal to work on.  This is a "you can be welding the day you bring all this stuff home" kit.  It is truly like Christmas morning, do you remember that? I still do after all these many, many years. The SW 210 also meets your "stick" needs as it is a CC machine and the duty cycle and amperage range should keep you happy until you fall over dead with the stinger still clinched in your hand. Now on to the "MIG would be a plus" desire.  For that I would consider the Miller Millermatic 212 Auto-Set MIG machine.  This is a shop machine that weighs in at 185 lbs.; if you want true portability, step down to the 74 lb. 211 Auto-Set, still in the same amperage range, but less of a duty cycle' 30% as opposed to 60% for the 212.  Again, you have to sacrifice something for lighter weight.  Still, you could take the 212 mobile if you had to.  This is a complete package, "Weld right out of the box" after adding on the additional afore mentioned necessities along with the proper gasses. Be ready for the added costs of gas bottle ownership, it can be expensive initially.  I would recommend 80 to 150 Cu. Ft. bottles for your stated purposes.  As an aside, Miller is trying to convince us that the SW 210 can do all processes.  Yeah, but without qualification, not entirely true.  The SW 210 has a $900 option for MIG via a cheap (my opinion and I have one) Spoolmate 100.  This gun has very limited capability, 135 A @ 30% duty cycle, doesn't run 5000 series aluminum wire, will melt contact tips when pushed and presents burn-back and bird-nesting problems.  I can't buy a $900 cost for a $300 gun with an add-on $200 card and a few other items to make this package work.  The Millermatic 212 with spool gun (Spoolmate 200) option is a better route to take, but with this set-up that isn't necessary.  So finally what does it cost to play this game?  Retail: SW 210 = $2,678.  MM 212 = $1,878.  $1,000 for gas, bottles, consumables, accessories, PPE and you are under the retail price of the 200DX TIG Runner package to which you will still have to add all the mentioned accessories.  With some smart shopping you should be able to reduce the cost I have mentioned.  Any LWS should give a good discount for a two machine purchase and even throw in some incentives to keep you as a customer, they make $$$ every time you walk in the door, even if it is only to "look".  You might even be able to work in a plasma machine and still hold that $5,500 total cost.  This is where online shopping can make the deal happen.  There are many possibilities in this digital age. This has gone long, so I'll wrap up by saying: do your online research first.,  There are volumes of info out there.  Miller's site, Hobart's site (they are part of Miller), Lincoln and ESAB's sites and sooo many other resources.  One manufacture's equipment really isn't noticeably superior to another's these days, so I wouldn't recommend blue over red, over black and gold, over grey and orange.  Choose what suits you and DON'T let anyone convince you to take MIG and limited TIG combined, over straight TIG plus the free add-on that comes with every TIG machine, good old SMAW, stick!!!  I don't understand why anyone would recommend a 3-way MIG inverter box for serious TIG welding.  And one more: why recommend to a new hobby/home (read that to mean limited resources and not just $$$) welder, a monster 300+ amp, 400+ lb. high voltage and possibly 3 phase industrial machine that will drive him away from welding forever. I hope this helps you "diddy".  Good luck with your choices, jump in, the water's fine.
Reply:WeldSmith, thank you. This is very helpful information and an awful lot of what I'm looking for. You've given me some great suggestions to consider, and reinforced the reasons I've been leaning away from the MultiMatic for my interests.To be clear, I'm not stuck on the color Blue. Miller is what I've welded with before, but I have no issue with considering anybody that manufactures a quality, reliable product that they are known to stand behind with a good service network and parts availability. I'd rather pay a little more for a better product and support than getting the cheapest thing possible. That said, the timing of the new SynchroWave release is indeed interesting. I'll give the SW210 a long look. The MM 211 also looks like a good compliment to let me do MIG when that's what I'm after. The 212 just looks like more machine than I want or need for that purpose.Thanks for everyone's input here. This has been a big help in figuring out what I really want to accomplish and how that matches up against today's options.
Reply:Weldsmith, what an excellent and pertinent reply! As someone contemplating a first welder, diddyball's  thoughts are very close to mine- I want a tig, and want to be able to do aluminum work to 1/4" or so. I want a stick, to be able to weld angle brackets on pipe and other farm type work.  The miller 210 syncro looks very appealing. The only comments negative I have heard was the need to go through various and sundry menus to get to the appropriate settings- this drives me crazy with a touch screen car radio, with a tool I would go berserk!  Any comments on the Lincoln squarewave175 or the Lincoln precision tig 225?   They seem to be old school transformer machines, but can run stick, unlike the Miller Diversion?