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Well, I finally decided to get a stick welder for my home use. I settled on a Hobart 235/160 AC/DC from Tractor Supply. Its still in the box waiting for a receptacle for its plug. My only experience with stick was with an old Lincoln AC buzzbox quite a few years ago. I didnt do very well with it; so I got rid of it and started using a flux-core wire feed. But now I have bigger problems, and I need to give stick another try. So here is one of my problems that has me a little worried: Im hoping to get some sage advice on this repair. This Ford tractors bucket cross member has a failed weld which is sending cracks up and down each end. How would you-all handle this? What electrode would you use? How would you deal with the rust within the crack, and what do you do with a crack that you cannot get to with a grinder?
Reply:Well, I'm gonna go ahead and say that you should not be thinking of a "Dremel tool" for this kind of crack preparation. A 4" or 4.5" small angle grinder is much more appropriate.And with grinding a crack out in prep for welding, you are not really trying to WIDEN the crack, you really just want to change the profile of the crack area so that it is turned into a Vee shaped furrow or rut (if you will).Bearing in mind that you are probably going to be a bit rusty yourself on the welding skills for stick, I advise you to weld just a short section at a time (maybe 2" long beads) and jump around to different places, so you don't have a lot of heat input that will cause distortion and stresses to accumulate.In the case of a rusty weldor (you), a grinder is your best friend.Last edited by walkerweld; 05-15-2014 at 01:20 PM.
Reply:Grinder the cracks out, run some 6011 or 6010 down hill, good and hot, than if needed you can use 7018 uphill.How skilled are you at 7018 uphill?Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:I think you have a problem that you don't know about, that is causeing this problem. That would be, you have some air in one of the hydraulic cylinders on the lift arms. This is making the other one work harder to raise the load, and that is transferring torque through the cross member causing the cracking due to repeated cycles of lifting and dumping loads.If you were to disconnect the cylinders from the lift arms and cycle them with the hydraulics, you will most likely notice one that extends some and stops, then extends and stops during a full extension. This is the one with air in the lines somewhere. You will need to address this problem before you put this repaired loader back in service, or it is just going to start all over again. You need to have BOTH cylinders extending and retracting smoothly together, so they are working in unison. Do you know how to bleed the air from the hydraulics?
Reply:Those are double acting cylinders. They are self purging and because they are also fed from a circuit common to both cylinders, the pressure in each cylinder is balanced to the other when a circuit is pressurized.Only things like an unequal (between left and right sides of bucket) loading will cause the boom lattice to distort.Using the bucket for heavy scraping and digging can also cause distortion to the boom lattice structure.These are not really intended for use like a bulldozer blade, but they often get called out to do that kind of work, and suffer the consequences.
Reply:6010 root...7018 cap
Reply:I would advise going and buying a Die Grinder.... but if you don't want to hand the cash for one, you can use the carbide burr's in a 3/8 drill... That way is a bit slower mind you but at least you can get to the spots that a grinder can't reach. Like the others mentioned grind the crack to a vee, use a flat wire brush on a grinder, maybe wedge it open as much as you dare, the clamp it tight after the brushing. do plenty of tacking first. If you do your prep right you can use 7018 for the whole thing.. but maybe find some scrap first to get the "rust" outa you. pictures after!TOOLS AND TOYSSMAW Mid States Inc. "MISSING LINK" 10-150 AMP Buzzer circa 1945ishSMAW Magic Wand 40-60 AMP Suitcase Buzzer circa 1939ishGMAW Hobart 210 IronmanOxy-Propane TorchMany other old and cold goodies"Rusty but Trusty"
Reply:Thanks for the reply folks! I have been cleaning it with my 4.5” grinder – it just won’t go into that tight corner – unless I go ahead and use a cutting disc and widen the crack up to the bucket’s arm – scary commitment! I’m better going uphill than downhill, but that is with wire feed. – I’m definitely going to practice with the stick before I go ahead and blow holes in this project! But uphill/downhill in this case isn’t what I’m faced (except at the cross member’s base) with as the break runs horizontal … which makes me have to reach up .. another problem for me. I could lower the bucket, but then I would be welding upside down – worst still! Bistineau, I’m really glad you posted, because I never thought about that crack’s cause. We bought that 340B from Stanford for $1500 which was a great price, but we do have some repairs we need to do – new radiator, a little cowling work, this cross member weld, and the box scrapper needs welding as they ground down the blade until they compromised the mounting member for the blade (another welding project). We will take your advice and purge the lines.
Reply:Originally Posted by MISSING LINKI would advise going and buying a Die Grinder.... but if you don't want to hand the cash for one, you can use the carbide burr's in a 3/8 drill... That way is a bit slower mind you but at least you can get to the spots that a grinder can't reach. Like the others mentioned grind the crack to a vee, use a flat wire brush on a grinder, maybe wedge it open as much as you dare, the clamp it tight after the brushing. do plenty of tacking first. If you do your prep right you can use 7018 for the whole thing.. but maybe find some scrap first to get the "rust" outa you. pictures after!
Reply:Originally Posted by Old Skool6010 root...7018 cap
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerweldThose are double acting cylinders. They are self purging and because they are also fed from a circuit common to both cylinders, the pressure in each cylinder is balanced to the other when a circuit is pressurized.Only things like an unequal (between left and right sides of bucket) loading will cause the boom lattice to distort.Using the bucket for heavy scraping and digging can also cause distortion to the boom lattice structure.These are not really intended for use like a bulldozer blade, but they often get called out to do that kind of work, and suffer the consequences.
Reply:yup 6010 to burn in a clean root & handle the rust, but if you get it clean it can be done with 7018 easy enough... but 6010/7018 is easy enough too..electric die grinders are nice if you don't have the air to power a pneumatic one.TOOLS AND TOYSSMAW Mid States Inc. "MISSING LINK" 10-150 AMP Buzzer circa 1945ishSMAW Magic Wand 40-60 AMP Suitcase Buzzer circa 1939ishGMAW Hobart 210 IronmanOxy-Propane TorchMany other old and cold goodies"Rusty but Trusty"
Reply:I would cut a spreader to hold the spread on the loader arms. Then cut out the thin junk and replace with some schedule 40 or 80 pipe and weld in new. You could use tube too. It's hard to tell what size it is.
Reply:what about a metabo electric die grinder ? i have a metabo angle grinder and i love it.
Reply:Or a side cut off tool. The 1/8th wheels are good enough to grind in tight spots. Make sure all hydraulic lines are protected or else when you start it you're going to shave a bigger problem then you think. Watched this first hand at my neighbors after air arcing on a buncher head. Shot straight through his thumb when the tractor started.Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by DennisKThanks for the reply folks! Bistineau, Im really glad you posted, because I never thought about that cracks cause. We bought that 340B from Stanford for $1500 which was a great price, but we do have some repairs we need to do new radiator, a little cowling work, this cross member weld, and the box scrapper needs welding as they ground down the blade until they compromised the mounting member for the blade (another welding project). We will take your advice and purge the lines.
Reply:Thats a fairly common area on a loader to crack. After the crack is fixed you may consider adding a fishplate or angle gusset to help it out. You don't have a hydraulic problem, more likely it is just fatigue or been slamming into stumps or rocks unevenly.
Reply:That is not a hydraulic problem. Crack actually looks like a freeze split.To ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth. This was the ancient law of youth. Old times are past, old days are done, but the law runs true oh little son.Winpower 180 DCSA-200 redfaceXMT-304
Reply:It wouldn't hurt to check the hydraulic cylinders anyway ... didn't notice any leaks - just a little sweating around the lines. After looking at this problem a little closer, I noticed what may be more damage: There may be a crack all the way around ... I had a bad feeling about this thing. It may be just the paint .. not sure; so I will need to get a die grinder and do a complete inspection. I may be looking at upside-down welding also .... wonderful intro to stick welding!! Oh well, I'm into challenges, and it looks like this fits the bill.
Reply:However you fix it make sure the loader is straight and square before you weld it. It broke from flexing, so make sure it's back straight because it will stay how it's welded.Sent from my SCH-I200 using TapatalkYeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:Originally Posted by jenniferincawhat about a metabo electric die grinder ? i have a metabo angle grinder and i love it.
Reply:Have fun with it Dennis. Looks to be a simple repair. Its out in the open, you can get to all of it without bending rods or using a mirror. You get to run all positions. Im not being sarcastic, it really does look like a fun repair. Relax, you got this! Chuck To ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth. This was the ancient law of youth. Old times are past, old days are done, but the law runs true oh little son.Winpower 180 DCSA-200 redfaceXMT-304
Reply:Originally Posted by DennisK6010 to blow the bad stuff away and 7018 to seal it off?
Reply:Yep that looks like another crack, don't worry overhead welding is easier than you would think. Just be sure to find a way to get comfortable before welding and you will do fine. Grind a groove in the cracks, and try to pull the steel together how it was before it cracked.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:You guys crack me up telling poor DennisK that this will be easy and fun He switched to wire feed cause he said he didn't do well with stick. Well, I could be wrong, it may be easy and fun - we'll find out when he plugs in the stick and runs some practice. Some guys take to it naturally Good luck on your repair Dennis and don't hesitate to get some advice on welding - plenty o guys here that can help Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.I start stick school on Monday. Am sure I'll have a solution by Tuesday. Jerry30+ yrs Army Infantry & Field Artillery, 25 yrs agoMiller 350LX Tig Runner TA 210, spool gunLincoln 250/250 IdealArcESAB PCM 500i PlasmaKazoo 30" vert BSKazoo 9x16 horiz BSClausing 12x24 lathe20T Air Press
Reply:Seems to me the tubing that was used was a seamed tube and it cracked right along the seam on both sides of it if you follow it. After that cracked it allowed a good amount of flex that caused the other issues. I would run a thin zip wheel straight through the whole crack from end to end. When you plunge the wheel through the crack you will be able to get both corners without a die grinder. I would prefer a 5/32 6010 for your first pass filling in the gap. Whip and pause technique. For a cover pass I would use a 1/8 7018. I would probably weave the whole thing but use you best judgement depending on your skill level. As far as the other cracks go just vee the crap out of them and weld em up with 1/8 7018. Hope that helped a little. Hard to give 100% positive advise with just a few pics, but that's what it looks would do it.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:You could also try a needle scaler to remove paint,rust and slag too. Makes tight spots and slag inclusions easy to clean.Thermal arc 211iCk flex-loc 150 & 130Clamps, saws & grindersHarbor freight 80 amp inverter
Reply:Originally Posted by sled dogThat is not a hydraulic problem. Crack actually looks like a freeze split.
Reply:I like the idea of cutting the entire thing out, putting fish plates on each side and welding in a new cross member. Really need to see the rest of the loader to see if it is worth the effort. If the rest of the loader is all patched up just gouge and weld.DanManipulator Of Metal
Reply:If it was my project, after studying and finding more cracks. I would pull the loader off, back the tractor away, set loader on the ground, jack stands, sawhorses or whatever to get at those spots in an easy position. You already said you were never comfortable stick welding, so put it in a position that is easiest to work in. Then flip it over to do the other side, never handicap yourself by skill limitations, aim to do it to the best of your ability!
Reply:Originally Posted by drujinin so put it in a position that is easiest to work in. Then flip it over to do the other side, aim to do it to the best of your ability!
Reply:I’m due to go into town next Wednesday where I can buy a receptacle for the Hobart welder’s plug. Then I can see just how I can stick weld – knowing what I now know. I have to confess, when I had that buzz box, I remember doing everything, imaginable, wrong. I tried to run it on a 3500 Watt generator … I don’t believe I even knew enough to keep my electrodes dry – now, it all is a source of embarrassment. But the years have gone by, and thanks to reading material, youtube, and forums like this, I think I have a better foothold on making stick work for me. I’ll find out next week – looking forward to it. I’m really curious about DC welding. I drug out the sandblaster and did a little cleaning:We don’t have any major hydraulic leaks, but the Bucket’s main cylinders are sweating and Jennifer wants to take them in to our favorite hydraulic shop and have them resealed; so taking down the whole unit is viable, but my concern is keeping the bucket’s arms aligned when I weld. Right now, the alignment is in good shape – I’d like to keep it that way.
Reply:Oh boy, the crack (which you also included a close up of) on the inside face of the left boom arm lends a lot of credibility and support to the suggestion for cutting out the cross tube, fish plating the arms, and fabbing a new cross tube out of schedule 40 or 80 pipe.The fact that you have a crack that is intending to travel around the outside edge of that weld on the face of the arm is screaming FATIGUED METAL.You would want to get all traces of the old weld off of the face of the arm, weld up any cracks there, grind smooth, and then fish plate to reach adjacent metal that has not been worked/twisted/fatigued.I am certain that some members who have done similar repairs on back hoes/excavators booms can give the proper configurations and shapes for fish plates to do this.
Reply:Originally Posted by storemanI start stick school on Monday. Am sure I'll have a solution by Tuesday. Jerry
Reply:Most of my backhoes eventually end up with that same crack, just grind, weld, and fishplate it. Yes it will come back someday. As far as hydraulic cylinders, rebuilding them yourself is not hard, you will have to learn that eventually on machines that old. If they are just seeping I would leave them for now.
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerweldOh boy, the crack (which you also included a close up of) on the inside face of the left boom arm lends a lot of credibility and support to the suggestion for cutting out the cross tube, fish plating the arms, and fabbing a new cross tube out of schedule 40 or 80 pipe.The fact that you have a crack that is intending to travel around the outside edge of that weld on the face of the arm is screaming FATIGUED METAL.You would want to get all traces of the old weld off of the face of the arm, weld up any cracks there, grind smooth, and then fish plate to reach adjacent metal that has not been worked/twisted/fatigued.I am certain that some members who have done similar repairs on back hoes/excavators booms can give the proper configurations and shapes for fish plates to do this.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartMost of my backhoes eventually end up with that same crack, just grind, weld, and fishplate it. Yes it will come back someday. As far as hydraulic cylinders, rebuilding them yourself is not hard, you will have to learn that eventually on machines that old. If they are just seeping I would leave them for now.
Reply:It's probably just a spanner, those usually aren't to tight, but the piston bolt is. Some times the cap has a small lock screw holding it from backing off. When reassembling the cap, loosen the hydraulic line so the small amount of pressure from squeezing the cap down doesn't displace the gland seals. The system will bleed itself by cycling the cylinder several times. Originally Posted by DennisKYes, we have an old J20 Ditch Witch that had leaking cylinders. Jennifer took them apart and during our shopping trip, we dropped into a hydraulics shop to buy new seals. We had the cylinders with us. The owner pulled out the new seals, took the cylinders from us and disappeared into the back. About 5 minutes later, he came back with seals installed and cylinders all nice and pretty. This impressed Jennifer so now that is our “Favorite” hydraulics shop. Jennifer has taken ownership of rebuilding hydraulics. I need to fabricate a tool for her that turns the top cap of the bucket’s lifting cylinder.
Reply:I'd bet a dime that is a seam that was production welded and never was anywhere close to any penetration to start with. Same goes with the others, 'hunnert mile an hour' production welds for cosmetics. That seam held up for a lot of years. Just about any decent weld on there will be as good as the original or better."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyI'd bet a dime that is a seam that was production welded and never was anywhere close to any penetration to start with. Same goes with the others, 'hunnert mile an hour' production welds for cosmetics. That seam held up for a lot of years. Just about any decent weld on there will be as good as the original or better.
Reply:Colleges buy a new small tractor, use it like a Cat 988, and in a year or two they are ready to sell as scrap. Fix it right, use it as a light duty loader it'll give years of service.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveYou guys crack me up telling poor DennisK that this will be easy and fun He switched to wire feed cause he said he didn't do well with stick. Well, I could be wrong, it may be easy and fun - we'll find out when he plugs in the stick and runs some practice. Some guys take to it naturally Good luck on your repair Dennis and don't hesitate to get some advice on welding - plenty o guys here that can help
Reply:I'd jump head first into this project, but that's me. I've been doing this since childhood. I'd cut the torsional oval crossmember out, repair it by grinding thoroughly, put a backer behind the broken weld. To the extent possible, weld both edges of the backer where accessible from the open ends. Welding of the seam could then be done in good position. My machine of choice would be my MM252 wire machine, as second choice I'd use 7018 stick With backer in place, 6010 shouldn't be necessary.
Reply:Before you go to tackle the job, practice your welds in a realistic position. I see plenty of students who can make really nice out of position welds in a booth. Give them a simple project like a table and have them do the welds in a realistic position, say laying on the floor and welding the joints overhead, or having to crouch down and lean underneath to do a few horizontals, and you end up with a whole different look.Position the tractor as you will need to do the welds and then get into position to weld. Then go set up your practice pieces so you have to contort yourself into the same positions. As said if you are not good at doing out of position welds, getting the pieces into the best position possible is a good idea. If you can't get good results when practicing, you won't get good results on the actual project. As mentioned there's nothing wrong with admitting that you just don't have the skills for this and finding someone who does to weld it up for you.This is a fairly good sized project and quite a few things are going to have to fall together to make it work well. That includes prep ( glad to see you sandblasted the areas shown), as well as fit up and welding..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by ANVIL+1I wasn't going to comment, but I will now after reading all the posts. DennisK, please take NO OFFENSE to my response, as this is not a personal attack on you. After looking at the entire thread (pictures specifically), coupled with your own admitted lack of experience for a task this big, I'd say hire a professional weldor. The simple fact of you asking about bringing a "dental drill" (Dremel) to the job, plus the fact you're lacking in stick welding experience and starting welding school in a few days, makes me cringe. I say all this with utmost respect to you for the simple fact that you're not ashamed to admit that you don't have the experience nor the skills (yet) for a job this big. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a person passing up a job that's too complex for oneself and it's much better to simply say, " I can't or shouldn't even attempt this job." However, there's many things wrong for a person to tell oneself, "hey, I can do this" and fail miserably at it. That's where a respectable person recognizes their own limitations and summons someone that's better qualified for the job. You are to be admired for seeking advice here on how to handle this job. But when presented with the specific welding issues and your background, my only advice is for you to find someone qualified for the job. It's easy for people to tell you to "go for it," on the internet when they themselves have nothing at stake or invested anything personally with the task. Just my opinion.
Reply:Since you are not the author of this particular destruction I take it for granted that you do not know what was done to the loader to cause this failure. Make the best repair you can and inspect it regularly to see if there are cracks re-appearing. If it does not show signs of another failure you repair is at least good enough for what you do but keep checking. If it does show signs of failure again and you haven't been abusing it, it would then be safe to assume that it was under built in the first place and some further reinforcement or redesign may then be necessary. Even though we all would like to make every fix a one time occurrence the reality is that nothing teaches faster than failure if you don't give up. The nice thing about doing this kind of repair yourself is if it doesn't hold the first time you can grind it out and do it again. As always work safely both in your repair adventures and with that tractor when you get it fixed.---Meltedmetal
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1I would cut a spreader to hold the spread on the loader arms. Then cut out the thin junk and replace with some schedule 40 or 80 pipe and weld in new. You could use tube too. It's hard to tell what size it is.
Reply:Most likely some knit wit trying to unearth the Rock of Gibraltar or frozen ground with the corner of the bucket.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BMost likely some knit wit trying to unearth the Rock of Gibraltar or frozen ground with the corner of the bucket. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:03:35