Second semester at welding school/ TIG pics

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Started my second semester at welding school this week.  Today I worked on TIG welding steel and aluminum.  I have a long ways to go!  I was surprised to see two brand new "Lincoln Electric Precision TIG 325s" in the shop.  Considering everything else is Blue, these brand new machines really stuck out.  -I got to be the first student to take Mrs. Lincoln for a little test ride today. Weld Pic #1: Steel lap jointWeld Pic #2: Steel T jointWeld Pic #3: Steel Corner jointWeld Pic #4: Steel Butt jointIts always nice to recieve feed back from experienced welders, so any critiques are very welcome! Attached ImagesLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:Aluminum Lap joint Attached ImagesLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:You need to work on your consistency, especially along the toes. Looks like you have a consistent problem with the "top" set of toes in the lap, T joint and but joint in steel shown. I'm guessing it's either a vision issue where you can't clearly see that edge of the weld puddle or it's a torch angle issue. T joint looks like it might be a bit cold, but that might be from the lighting in that pict.Your alum bead looks very nice and is probably the most consistent of those shown..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWYou need to work on your consistency, especially along the toes. Looks like you have a consistent problem with the "top" set of toes in the lap, T joint and but joint in steel shown. I'm guessing it's either a vision issue where you can't clearly see that edge of the weld puddle or it's a torch angle issue. T joint looks like it might be a bit cold, but that might be from the lighting in that pict.
Reply:Originally Posted by Gar  My instructor said the T joint may not have had enough filler. -You can't really tell in the picture but its really concave.  Heat may be a problem as well?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI can see it that way now. Before it looked tall and cold rather than concave. Lighting in picts can sometimes play tricks on you. The shadows I took as cold toes might be undercut at the top of the concave bead.
Reply:Stuff like this is why I'm obsessed with welding right now. So much respect for the skilled welders. I'm impressed at your welding though.
Reply:Welding 101.  We watched some videos, then the instructor's demo, then we got set up and got started.  Today's assignment was to weld bead, after bead, after bead...  -E6013, AC, 115 amps, on 1/4" plate.  Critiques always welcome! Attached ImagesLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:Hard to tell much from the pict as all the beads run together. I'd say you needed to overlap your beads a bit more.  50% of the last bead is usually what you are aiming for. The general idea of this exercise is that usually you get as smooth and even a top as possible as each subsequent bead overlaps the last one. The top on that looks a bit "hilly" especially top center and bottom center where it looks like the beads could have been a bit closer together. This drill does 2 things. One it is the same technique used for build up, like when you need to restore material to a worn area or do hard facing. 2nd is that it's the same technique you'd use as if you were doing a multi layer weld like if you needed to do a large fillet weld or if you needed to do fill on a groove weld for pipe. The smoother and more even you get the passes, the easier it is to do the next "layer" of welds. If you get a big "valley" like I see dead center at the top between the 1st full bead and the 2nd, it makes the next layer of beads on top a lot tougher to get right and there's a good chance you'll  trap slag in that void.Also with 6013 I'd expect that you could probably get a nicer, more even and smooth bead with a bit more work than I see here. If you want to see some really nice examples of what 6013 can look like take a look at some of Pipe fitters welds in this thread. Note how smooth and even his stringer beads are, and how the slag just peals up behind him on his welds in one piece with no chipping. he's definitely a master at 6013.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=19742Your welds aren't bad, but you definitely need to work a bit more on your consistency. 6013 is a fairly easy rod to run if you get your settings, rod angle and travel speed correct, but some people do have some issues with it on occasion..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf you want to see some really nice examples of what 6013 can look like take a look at some of Pipe fitters welds in this thread. Note how smooth and even his stringer beads are, and how the slag just peals up behind him on his welds in one piece with no chipping. he's definitely a master at 6013.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=19742
Reply:Two projects today during the "lab" portion of welding school.  The first picture is a bracket I fabricated for a friend to hold miscellaneous electronic gear.  TIG welded (DCEN), 120 amps (using foot pedal as needed), 1/4" welded to 1/8" steel, 3/32" tungsten, 3/32" filler.  The second picture is a sub-frame from an M3.  The area where the engine mounts are bolted needed to be re-enforced (one side was cracking), and the owner wanted these reinforcement plates he purchased welded on (according to the manufacturers instructions they needed to be welded in place). TIG welded (DCEN), 110 amps (using foot pedal as needed), 1/8" steel, 3/32" tungsten, 3/32" filler. Again, constructive criticism very welcome! Attached ImagesLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:1st pict the bead looks very harsh and slightly concave. I'm betting a big part of this is lighting from the pict though. I'd like to have seen the top edge a bit smoother and more even, and seen a bit more wash in at the toes. Again a lot of this might be due to the size of the pict and the contrast in the photo rater than any major issues.If the 1/4" is the top piece, you could have made that bead about 1/2 the size I see. Remember with a fillet weld, you really don't need the legs to be any larger than the thickness of the thinner material. So if the 1/4" is the top piece, you didn't need to fill all the way to the top. 1/2 to maybe 3/4 of the way up would have been plenty, and probably made a nicer looking bead.Last pict looks way too cold to me. Those big soft looking blobs of filler are not what I'd expect to see with tig on steel. The lower toe of the bead looks like it's tall and cold lapped over the base material. I would also liked o have seen the dips on this one a lot closer together than what I'm seeing. You also need to work on your consistency more. It shows in this pict more than in the 1st one.I'd have probably had the amps up around 125 if not a bit higher on both of these, especially the 1st one. I tend to like to set my amps higher than needed, and work the pedal a bit more than some do..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:By subframe plates for an M3 are you talking about the BMW M3 rear suspension reinforcing plates? If you are, do you think that practicing on a car is a good idea for you?Keep working at it though - looks like you have a good start on learning to weld.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveBy subframe plates for an M3 are you talking about the BMW M3 rear suspension reinforcing plates? If you are, do you think that practicing on a car is a good idea for you?Keep working at it though - looks like you have a good start on learning to weld.Dave J.
Reply:I see, from the description I thought it was two different welds.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW1st pict the bead looks very harsh and slightly concave. I'm betting a big part of this is lighting from the pict though. I'd like to have seen the top edge a bit smoother and more even, and seen a bit more wash in at the toes. Again a lot of this might be due to the size of the pict and the contrast in the photo rater than any major issues.If the 1/4" is the top piece, you could have made that bead about 1/2 the size I see. Remember with a fillet weld, you really don't need the legs to be any larger than the thickness of the thinner material. So if the 1/4" is the top piece, you didn't need to fill all the way to the top. 1/2 to maybe 3/4 of the way up would have been plenty, and probably made a nicer looking bead.Last pict looks way too cold to me. Those big soft looking blobs of filler are not what I'd expect to see with tig on steel. The lower toe of the bead looks like it's tall and cold lapped over the base material. I would also liked o have seen the dips on this one a lot closer together than what I'm seeing. You also need to work on your consistency more. It shows in this pict more than in the 1st one.I'd have probably had the amps up around 125 if not a bit higher on both of these, especially the 1st one. I tend to like to set my amps higher than needed, and work the pedal a bit more than some do.
Reply:Usually we do most of our 1/8" stuff with 1/16" filler, though at home I'll occasionally use 3/32" on things like T joints. Your tungsten size looks good, but you amps looked low.As far as how questionable the weld is, that's very hard to say without really seeing it in person. If it's simply a piece going over an existing good piece of material and something will sit on top of this, I doubt there will be any issues. But since I really don't know how it's being used, it's hard to say. Also since I'm pretty sure the 1st pict you posted has image quality issues due to lighting, it wouldn't surprise me if this bead looks better in person. I've had that issue several times when I've tried to take picts of what look like text book quality welds, only to have the picts look horrible due to shadows from the lighting etc. Some times picts from 2 or 3 angles can also help to give a better over all idea of what the weld looks like vs just one close up detailed pict. You 1/4" weld in the 1st pict is a good example. If I didn't read that closely, I'd have guessed that was a very close up pict of 1/8" with no other reference.I'm a bit surprised by the look of that weld compared to the rest of your tig welds. It looks totally different, and different than what I'm used to seeing with most students with steel. It almost has the look of an alum weld. I'm honestly not 100% sure what you were doing wrong exactly. My guess is it is probably a combination of things starting with low amps.By "harsh" I'm looking at how sharp the ripples look in that 1st pict. It almost looks like a 6010 weld rather than tig. Part of that might be because of the lighting making the ripples look sharper than they really are.Here's a few things I note on the picts.Pict one. Note the area at the top shown with the single green line. The bead is just a tiny shade low from the edge of the plate, but not too much. If you had maintained that line across the whole plate you would have had a very nice bead. The yellow area is also very nice and consistent even though you got just a hair above the top edge. On thinner material, you almost have to melt the top edge, while with thicker stock something like what you see with the green line would be a bit more acceptable.At the lower toe, the single dip that is marked with the blue line wetted out better than any other area shown at the bottom. I'll admit  I'm being very picky on some of this, but that's how you learn.On the M3 weld, look at the lower toe areas I marked. The blue area looks well wetted in and more in line with what I'd be expecting to see. The ripples in this area look "muddy" and indistinct though. The line of glare near the top might be masking the ripples more than I can tell. The green area looks just a shade cold, but it could be the angle of the pict. The unmarked areas of that side all look cold. The top edge look pretty good on that side, but the area in orange looks particularly consistent. You seem to have an easier time getting the tops nice and a bit more trouble with the bottom edges for some reason. The closer I look, the "better" it seems, but my 1st impression still seems to feel right that you needed more amps. I'm also wondering if the goofy rounded portion of that stamped piece isn't throwing me off some what in conjunction with the camera angle the more I look at the pict.I'll admit that I'm a lot pickier than many people I know when trying to critique welds. It's also tough sometimes to do this looking at picts vs the actual welds. Over all you look like you are doing quite well. You just need to work on some little things to improve here and there.Last edited by DSW; 02-03-2013 at 06:41 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW,Ronald Reagan would be proud of you brother!  I am of the mindset; "No finisher medals or trophies for everyone participating, you work hard AND come in first, you get the metal/trophy."   I am a student of this craft and your salty criticisms are very welcome!  I am sure as I progress in my training my instructors will become more critical, but I will learn faster if I recieve corrective criticism now, rather than, "looks good."  With that said, I will put into practice the things you've mentioned and be mindful of the lower edge.  I will also take several pictures of the same weld from different angles.  Thanks again, I know time is very valuable and you owe me nothing, but here you are helping a complete stranger.  BZ!GarLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWSome times picts from 2 or 3 angles can also help to give a better over all idea of what the weld looks like vs just one close up detailed pict.
Reply:Spent the day welding 1/8" aluminum.  Lincoln Electric Precision TIG 375, set on AC auto balance, 156 amps, 1/16" tungsten, 3/32" filler.  The fourth picture is a different weld set.  Critiques very welcome! Attached ImagesLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:The view from the side helps with that steel pict some. You'll note that the weld bead makes a nice 45 deg looking triangle. Same with the alum fillets. This shows you aren't getting too much metal on only one piece. with say more metal on the bottom where you'd have as a 30/60 triangle.Also on the steel bead it's easy to see that the weld is not to concave or convex, and that the face is pretty much in line with a 45 deg line connecting the two toes of the weld. That 45 deg angle also shows the bead isn't a rough as the picts earlier makes it seem.Lighting still makes the picts a bit hard to read, ( probably the flash) but the multiple angles helps. I wouldn't have guessed the crater in the end in some of those picts is the same if you hadn't said so because of how the lighting makes them look. In one it looks huge, and in the one above it, it doesn't look quite so deep. Using more ambient light with the picts might help. ( Getting decent picts is often a real PITA)You need to work on consistency in the bead dips. Consistency at the toes isn't too bad. The toes stay pretty straight and even. The 1st but joint looks a bit cold. I did mark one section that looks pretty decent in blue. The red dot shows the only real hiccup in that area. Changes in heat could also use a bit more work on consistency.I say the weld looks "cold" because of a couple of things. Besides the "tall" look of some of the bead dips, #1 reason is the fact you didn't melt the end way back when you stopped. That end looks particularly cold. If you were getting good penetration thru the piece, I'd expect you'd have made a mess at the end of the weld from experience with others just learning. I'm betting if you flip the piece over, you'll still see a nice straight cut line over a good portion of that piece. If you aren't getting 100% penetration on your but joint with a slight bit of reinforcement, you need to get "hotter". Usually this means more amps  and move faster as well as jamming the filler in more. Tight fit but joints are the toughest to do well. 1/8" material is a bit thick to just cruise along and do. You need the heat to punch thru, but you need the control to keep from melting it all into a big mess. Ends are especially tough as you have to keep it hot enough, long enough to maintain good penetration, yet not melt the edge away when you get there. Many times guys will weld from the ends in to the center to avoid having to stop on the ends. You also need to work on filling the crater at the end of the weld. Again it's tough at the edge of the plate, and you need a lot of control to pull it off well. Practice is what it takes to do this...Last edited by DSW; 02-10-2013 at 08:34 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW,Awesome!  Thanks.  The light is from the overhead lights in the welding shop, hard to get away from them. Outside probably be better for future pics.  I will run hotter and keep practicing.  I really like welding aluminum, mostly because I can see the area I am welding better then when welding steel, and the weld pool is also easier to see.GarLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:Made myself a "Third Hand" today.  Needed a quick and easy way to hold the aluminum welding coupons for practicing the T-joint/ fillet weld.  I am really surprised how useful this tool is and how easy/ fun it was to make.  I coated the tips with silicon bronze because, well thats what Jody (WT&T) did, and if he did it, then it must be cool. These picture are the butt joint welded flat.  After it was welded, I bent it in a vice to see if the weld would crack.  The first two did crack right down the middle.  Another student suggested cleaning the edge of the joint before welding it and lo and behold, it passed the high tech vice-a-bend test.  Now for the visual inspection from the more experienced. -And yes, I geeked out and polished it.1/8" Aluminum, 3/32 tungsten, 3/32 filler, 125 amps AC, Miller Dynasty 350.  Only one side was welded. Attached ImagesLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:Amps are a tad lower than I would have probably set the machine for. I'd usually set it at 150 amps for students, I go higher, closer to 180 to get the puddle to form fast then back off quickly.Dip spacing could use a little work to become more consistent.  I like the section thats up near the top of the last pict and looks like it's about 1/3rd of the way up in the 1st pict right where that glare line is. Profile looks good, I wouldn't mind seeing just a tad more height though.  It wouldn't surprise me that's partially because of your lower amps. Can't tell how much reinforcement you got on the backside, but it does look like you got good penetration thru the whole length from what I can see. Seeing the back is usually the best way to tell how good but welds are. If the reinforcement is nice and consistent and there is no tell tale sign of the original joint line, that's usually a good indicator that you've got it down well.I'd say you were doing well. If you could do one or two and get the dips more consistent, I'd be very happy with them if the backs turned out well.FYI the extra material on the face will screw with bends. Since the material is thicker there, you really aren't testing that center section well. Usually when I've seen bend tests done, they machine off the reinforcement so the material is the same thickness as the base. That way everything is "equal", and when you go to bend if there is any issues in the joint, it's not hidden by the fact it's harder to bend that area..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAmps are a tad lower than I would have probably set the machine for. I'd usually set it at 150 amps for students, I go higher, closer to 180 to get the puddle to form fast then back off quickly.Dip spacing could use a little work to become more consistent.  I like the section thats up near the top of the last pict and looks like it's about 1/3rd of the way up in the 1st pict right where that glare line is. Profile looks good, I wouldn't mind seeing just a tad more height though.  It wouldn't surprise me that's partially because of your lower amps. Can't tell how much reinforcement you got on the backside, but it does look like you got good penetration thru the whole length from what I can see. Seeing the back is usually the best way to tell how good but welds are. If the reinforcement is nice and consistent and there is no tell tale sign of the original joint line, that's usually a good indicator that you've got it down well.I'd say you were doing well. If you could do one or two and get the dips more consistent, I'd be very happy with them if the backs turned out well.FYI the extra material on the face will screw with bends. Since the material is thicker there, you really aren't testing that center section well. Usually when I've seen bend tests done, they machine off the reinforcement so the material is the same thickness as the base. That way everything is "equal", and when you go to bend if there is any issues in the joint, it's not hidden by the fact it's harder to bend that area.My original instructor used to keep a metronome in the shop and he'd use it to help people with dipping. I know some will suggest using the pulse feature to help teach "timing" the dips. With each pulse, you add filler. The mechanics of the pulse itself isn't important, it's the visual pulse that tells you to add filler.  The day school instructor lets students wear their Ipods and suggests listening to music with a beat while welding to help... I personally like to "tap" in the filler, and it's a lot like using drum sticks. Maybe take a piece of filler and use it like a drum stick to practice tapping.They biggest key is simply practice and lots of it..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:A metronome, I like it.  Now thats something I could try.  I did a quick search for photos of a metronome, and found an iPhone app for same, go figure.  I will seriously give this a try next week, and try some pulsing as well.  Cheers,Gar Attached ImagesLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table