First machine advice

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Got 3 to 4 months before I would want to pull the trigger on a machine.  No place for it yet in my garage.  My cousin has a small MIG and has advised me to go with a MIG for my first machine.  He also said don't skimp on power go big as I can afford or else a year or two down the road I will want to upgrade.  He has wanted to upgrade for over a year now.   Anyway, budget is about 3k or so but would like to get a plasma cutter too.Originally looked toward MM DVI but many posts said pass cuz its weak on the high end and just get the 210.  Then read many posts on 210 vs 251, again pass the 210 and go big.  Go figure.   So I am leaning 251 and then get 375 extreme plasma or Hypertherm 38 in the new market.  My project list so far:Cart for welder and plasma cutterWelding tableBike repair standFireplace decorative gateBumpers, Bull bar and skid plate for a 2500HDMedia blast cabinetPowdercoating ovenBBQ smokerRacing Sim rigCherry picker and engine standHowever, I have no idea what to look for in the used market.  I am in no hurry so what about used?  With the money I save I would think I could probably be well on my way toward half of a TIG set up.  What models should I be looking at used that are comparable and recommended.  Envision up to 1/4 aluminum in my future due to cars addiction.G
Reply:A 220v MIG machine of 175 amps or more (preferably 200 to 250 if you plan to do much 1/4" or bigger) will serve you well.   Any of the major brands should do fine. I got an HTP MIG200 new almost 15 years ago and have been very happy with it.   You might want to check them out as another good choice in addition to the Lincoln/Miller/Hobart machines.  www.htpweld.com   As for older, used welders, the old Linde's were good machines.   My neighbor picked one up for a song.  It was a little rough on the outside but it works great.
Reply:I like your MM210 or MM251 plan.  Either will serve you very well.  Likely the MM210 will do everything you do and do it very well, leaving some for other necessities like LOTS of grinders (different wheels), an O/A torch, and a GOOD auto helmet, etc.The MM251 will do the 1/4" aluminum more easily and has a much beefier spoolgun option, though both machines work well with spoolguns and would get the job done.
Reply:Originally Posted by GDAGot 3 to 4 months before I would want to pull the trigger on a machine.  No place for it yet in my garage.  My cousin has a small MIG and has advised me to go with a MIG for my first machine.  He also said don't skimp on power go big as I can afford or else a year or two down the road I will want to upgrade.  He has wanted to upgrade for over a year now.   Anyway, budget is about 3k or so but would like to get a plasma cutter too.
Reply:Originally Posted by harcosparky...Do you know how expensive 50 feet of 8/3 wire is?
Reply:I just bought a piece of 10/3 SO 50 feet long, a 50 amp twistlock female end(plugs in to my Gentran/Gentron, however you spell it), and a 4 prong 220V male plug. Now I can run the house off my Trailblazer when the power goes out. Ready for the heart attack, $350 for  the cable and ends MY COST. You cant beat a good MIG for your first machine, but remember. Gas, wire, tips, liners, and all that other good stuff add up quick.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702Regardless of the size of the wire, you only needed 8/2 for the run from the panel to the receptacle.  This type of CABLE does not count the ground wire, like the 8/3 SO CORD does.
Reply:Something else to consider ....Voltage DROP along a conductor.The longer the run the lower the voltage.Consider 240 Volts ACIn an 8 ga conductor, say 125 feet long , how much voltage is getting to the device under power ( MM210 Full Power 28 Amps )? Answer:  235.642 VoltsIn an 10 ga conductor, say 125 feet long , how much voltage is getting to the device under power ( MM210 Full Power 28 Amps )? Answer:  233.068You can calculate Voltage Drop for your specific setup here....http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htmSo when it comes to feeding you welder, why not use a little larger wire than what you can " get away with ", both you and your welder will be happier in the long run.
Reply:Originally Posted by harcosparkyIf memory serves me correctly, manual states ....Minimum INPUT Conductor and Minimum GROUND Conductor must be the same size wire.The ground conductor in 8/2 is not 8 ga. It is smaller.In the SO cable, rubber insulated, used for an extension cord there is no " ground " wire. 8/2 has 2 conductors, and 8/3 has three.I know you can " get away " with 8/2, but on the outside chance something bad ( fire ) happens ...... do you really want to chance it.And lets be honest, I was pointing out the overall costs as it relates to a $3K budget. The difference between 8/3 and 8/2 isn't gonna save that much overall.NOTE - I live out in the boondocks .... the fire company here is all volunteer .... nothing wrong with them, nor is there anything wrong with my making sure everything I do as it pertains to electrical wiring is more than safe enough. I am extremely fire concious, so much so that we have 10 smoke/fire detectors inside the house. If a fire starts in the basement, I want to know about it before the smoke makes it up to the first floor.
Reply:Originally Posted by harcosparkyIn the SO cable, rubber insulated, used for an extension cord there is no " ground " wire. 8/2 has 2 conductors, and 8/3 has three.
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702Rubber is not used for insulation.
Reply:Originally Posted by harcosparkyRubber jacketed cable: SO: Trade Name: "Hard Service Cord." Outer covering is oil resistant thermoset; insulation is thermoset...
Reply:Originally Posted by harcosparky...My point on the Conductor Count is this .......Millers says that all conductors in a cable must be the same size.  If you buy 8/2 it has 2 each conductors of 8 ga and one each GROUND conductor of a smaller ga. If you use this cable for a Miller Welder you are NOT following thier installation instructions.
Reply:The Millermatic 210 Manual says the INPUT Conductor size for runs up to 110 feet must be 10 ga.  It also states the the GROUND Conductor for runs up to 110 feet must also be 10 ga.A Phone Call to Miller Electric confirmed that for longer runs all conductors must be INCREASED at least on size.It's not MY way, but it is the way Miller techs said was wise to do it.If I had my way, I'd just run two 8 ga condusctors to the unit in conduit, but as I said when it comes to ac electrical wiring, I call on the experts.This is confusing ... but you said it ---> " My Passport's manual only specifies that the minimum is the same for input conductors and the ground conductor, which is the same thing you said earlier, now you're saying it says they must always be the same size. You may wish to reread your manual... "If your Passport manual says  "  that the minimum is the same for input conductors and the ground conductor  " ...Is that not the same as saying   " they must always be the same size. "But hey maybe MILLER is giving out bad advice.As I always say, Welding I am new to so when in doubt I read the manual and call Miller.
Reply:Anyway in keeping with the original intent/question at the start.I did with a $3K +++ budget buy and install a new MM210 / 3035 Spoolgun along with several grinders, a helmet, and various consumables. Yes there were wiring expenses, and yes I did opt to take the more conservative route and use the highest grade of wiring I could afford. Even so the wiring was probably a $250 expense. If I would have chosen the MM251, the wiring would have needed to be heavier yet.I also want a Plasma Cutter. Given the costs of the Plasma Cutters, air cooler/dryer I think it would be a safe bet to say the total cost of all items to include MM210 / 3035 , Plasma Cutter , Dryer/Cooler, Grinders, Clamps, Helemt would be closer to $5K than $3K.http://www.brweldingsupplies.com/par...w=11&PageNum=2At B&R Welding the MM251 is  $1850  - with Spool Gun it is $2,819At B&R Welding the MM210 w/3035 Spoolgun is  $1,935  ( little less if you pick it up )( The LWS closest to me said he'd go broke matching those prices - I drove 90 minutes and saved myself $200 )Now assuming this is a new first time venture and one had a $3K budget, where would you steer them?
Reply:i would go with a MM210 W/spool gunand a spec 375you dont need an air dryer for a plasma you can do fine with a good seperator. summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:Another question - since I got to learn the basics and want to learn them well shouldn't I just try to get the box with a really good MIG gun and say spend 6 months grasping the fundamentals through lots of seat time.  Then once I have more experience then make a decision on how to progress to the next level (aluminum and tougher stuff) through a toolkit addition of SpoolGun or Push/Pull?I guess I didn't think I needed a spoolgun yet unless I desired to work aluminum.
Reply:Originally Posted by GDAAnother question - since I got to learn the basics and want to learn them well shouldn't I just try to get the box with a really good MIG gun and say spend 6 months grasping the fundamentals through lots of seat time.  Then once I have more experience then make a decision on how to progress to the next level (aluminum and tougher stuff) through a toolkit addition of SpoolGun or Push/Pull?I guess I didn't think I needed a spoolgun yet unless I desired to work aluminum.
Reply:One thing about Spoolguns, though, is that they are very handy for work that needs to be longer than 10' from the machine, like working on the tops of big trailers and things.  Or keeping full of flux-cored wire while the machine has solid wire.  Always a good reason to have a spoolgun around when it's in the budget and remotely useful.Last edited by MAC702; 10-25-2006 at 02:11 AM.
Reply:GDA you posted ---->  I guess I didn't think I needed a spoolgun yet unless I desired to work aluminum.Welding with a Spoolgun is not much different if at all than with the standard MIG gun.I was advised by others in various forms that a Spool Gun was an excellent way to make a great machine even better.Load up the machine with 030/035 steel wire for normal welding and the Spoolgun with 023 for the lighter stuff. This way the machine is loaded for whatever you throw at it.   --OR--   You could load up the maching with hard wire and gas and load up the spoolgun with Flux Core wire for when you might need that.But then again, in keeping with your $3K budget and wanting also to acquire a Plasma Cutter. The MM210 is about $1300 and the MM251 about $1800. Given the additional costs of all other items you will need, the MM210 will keep you more within your budget.I also wanted an MM251, I mean who wouldn't?  Bigger is always better. However in looking at the specs as published by Miller, the MM210 was an excellent choice. I believe the Duty Cycle of the MM210 is 60% @ 160 Amps and 100% % 130 Amps.And yes as MAC702 pointed out the Spoolgun can be used farther away from the machine as it comes out of the box and I beleive that it can go an additional 25 feet with an extension cable set. Not sure if you can put on more than one extension though.My Spoolgun came with rollers for 030/035 wire, had to buy them for 023.One more thing that I feel is a PLUS for the MM210. It has a TAPPED power supply transformer instead of one of those 'infinitely variable " ones for setting power level. Now some will say " oh the infinetly variable is the way to go, it is the latest technology and you can ' fine tune " your machine ".  Well in doing the research I have discovered that the tapped system may in fact be more versatile if not better. Some have intimated that the variable units may have problems with running on a generator. In fact during my research two dealers made this comment when I looked at a Miller Generator/Welder.  " You know you can run the MM210 on that Bobcat 250 ". Someone mentioned on the forums that a Generator can play havoc on the infinitely variable units.  Not sure how true this is either way, but it cam from people with a lot of experience and I considered it somewhat as I may have a need to run the MM210 on a Generator.Yeah you do not need a " cooler " to run a Plasma Cutter, and you could get away with just a good ' seperator ' but humidity levels are relative to air temps as well. I guess if there was a problem it would manifest itself by quickly using up the consumables. ( tips ) But researching air supply for a cutter is an entirely new thread.In any case looking at the figure you provided ( $3K ) and the goal you stated ( MIG & Plasma Cutter ) the MM210 is more in line with both your goals and budget. Maybe if you are intent on acquiring the MM251 you should do so, and get that set up and running with the basic set of tooling you will need. Items like a good helmet, clamps, gas bottle ( forgot this in previous posts - I got a larger bottle about 125 cu ft - cost was about $160 - $22 to refill ), grinders ( I did not see a need for more than one grinder - but I have 4 now and do see the need ), a cutoff tool ( you can use a grinder for this but I acquired a used Milwaukee portable band saw for $100 ), also any expendables such as grinding/cutoff disks you may need.I have a full production woodshop that I own and thought  " all I need to do is buy a welder and I'll be set "  LOL - was I kidding myself or what.Now that we have all we have, we are sitting down and doing a lot of welding. I am welding junk onto junk just to get practice and am happy with the knowledge that FINALLY I have all I " believe " I need for now. At least I can sit down for an entire day of welding and not need to run out to get something other than food and drink!   Last edited by harcosparky; 10-25-2006 at 06:34 AM.
Reply:harcosparky makes some good points be shore to alow in your budjet for the other stuff that goes along with welding if you are starting from scratch it could eat up $500 easily and still find some things you still need but you can get them a little at a time i also have 5 grinders 5 of the 4.5" and one 8". i would look at the big purchases first though as you can get buy with less of the others and pick up clamps and 4.5" grinders a little at a time, trying to go out and buy every thing you need to weld in one trip could easily cause a mental melt down   so concentraiting on the biggies first is always a good idea. as for the taped VS infenet debate well lets just say it rages on and on, one thing i can say for shore is every one i know of from all 4 forems i fallow(some for over 5 years) that gets a MM210 is always verry happy with it. for your purposes it should sevre you well. as for the spool gun lots that got it as a pacage deal thinking they would end up never using it have found it verry usefull. just have to think of it in terms other than just aluminum, although it works well for that too.a MM210W/spool gun and a spectrum 375 would realy have well set up. i almost never use my O/A after i got my plasma cutter, man are they nice. summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.