Welding Spider Gears

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I know many folks think this is a no no (and probably is for a number of reasons...) I am wondering though has anyone else had success? I used a tig, and 309 stainless. This is out of a neon or cavalier. The guy that wanted this done races it on dirt, so we can skip the "you'll never keep a good set of tires on it & say bye bye to your axles" discussion. I have seen a lot of people just use ER70s-2 or 7018 and have them hold up. Everything I came across though looked like a dog's as* when it was done. So just wondering if there is any 309 tig success stories out there. Usually, people weld where the gears meet too. I wasn't able to get in there with the torch too awfully well. I was worried about dumping too much heat in it. Truthfully even with the short backcap it was tuff to even get the outside. Basically though, I welded the lip and the teeth to the housing where I could, without loading it up with heat. Thanks!PS my gut says to use 312, but all I had was 308, 309, 316, and a mess of mild steel. Or in a best case maybe a nickel type alloy. Attached Images
Reply:Stick welders and mig works just fine. It doesn't matter what it looks like because its inside a rearend.Most people weld the gears together and weld them to the case and it seems to work well.
Reply:A lot of guys do this with the diff still in the truck using an old lincoln tombstone while lying on their back in the dirt, a surprising number of them hold up for years, a lot of those guys use whatever rod they have at arms reach and keep pouring metal in till nothing can go anywhere. Yours look a lot better than that, I would weld the gears to each other where the teeth come together if possible.
Reply:I did get a bit of weld on the inner gear between the teeth, opposite sides/corners. The big mig and stick are at another garage, and the guy wanted it done "yesterday". So needless to say thats what he got and a bill for the headache. Yeah the diffs I seen welded out looked like they had molten metal poured all over them. It blows my mind what "works" for some folks. In reality if it actually does work good for them, I'm not here hop on my soap box and say they're fools for a functional modification. A lot of what I learned though says certain fillers and certain metals don't get along... Thats why I was just wondering if anyone had success with 309. The piece is solid in there, everything is locked in with no movement. I think if only one gear was welded and the others had slop to them then maybe it would break (from the others banging and trying to move). I can't see though with all of them locked (both sides) them really being able to break. But you never know do you?
Reply:What does this mod do? Eliminate limited slip?
Reply:Originally Posted by ironmangqA lot of guys do this with the diff still in the truck using an old lincoln tombstone while lying on their back in the dirt, a surprising number of them hold up for years, a lot of those guys use whatever rod they have at arms reach and keep pouring metal in till nothing can go anywhere. Yours look a lot better than that, I would weld the gears to each other where the teeth come together if possible.
Reply:Originally Posted by thebuckWhat does this mod do? Eliminate limited slip?
Reply:Originally Posted by thebuckWhat does this mod do? Eliminate limited slip?
Reply:I agree, welding a section of the spider gear teeth to the side gear teeth can help spread the loading around and maybe stop a side gear from spreading or splitting open (which will shell the splines off the axle shaft).Basically, the way you have already done it far surpasses what most folks even hope for (in this application).
Reply:Originally Posted by mattwelding85I did get a bit of weld on the inner gear between the teeth, opposite sides/corners. The big mig and stick are at another garage, and the guy wanted it done "yesterday". So needless to say thats what he got and a bill for the headache. Yeah the diffs I seen welded out looked like they had molten metal poured all over them. It blows my mind what "works" for some folks. In reality if it actually does work good for them, I'm not here hop on my soap box and say they're fools for a functional modification. A lot of what I learned though says certain fillers and certain metals don't get along... Thats why I was just wondering if anyone had success with 309. The piece is solid in there, everything is locked in with no movement. I think if only one gear was welded and the others had slop to them then maybe it would break (from the others banging and trying to move). I can't see though with all of them locked (both sides) them really being able to break. But you never know do you?
Reply:Originally Posted by skinny99Dead on. I have done hundreds of these for mud trucks and circle track cars. 6011 and my mig depending on where I was. You did it perfect except I always weld a little between each gear to. It shouldn't need it but I do it.. The guys that weld them up and it looks like they poured it full of metal usually have the most issues. The spider gears end up cracking when you get them that hot.
Reply:Originally Posted by mattwelding85Basically, now no matter what both wheels will be forced to spin with no adjusting of power to either one. They will both get what the trans puts out.
Reply:Originally Posted by jamesyarbroughThat's kinda tough to say what would work best. I think the gears are like 8740? And the carriers always look to be cast. Cast what? I'm not sure. Stainless is a much safer bet for filler than a 6011 though! Let us know how it works out
Reply:Originally Posted by skinny99Yup. each axle turns the same speed. Increases traction on the drive axle. However it can be hard on the drivetrain as there is nothing to slip when the wheels need to turn different speeds when cornering. It usually done for vehicles on low traction surfaces such as mud or the clay of a dirt track. It is affectionately called the Lincoln Locker in some circles.
Reply:Originally Posted by mattwelding85Thanks for kind words, any issues with the circle track cars down the line? Good old 6010 & 6011, is there anything they can't do! You have an AC machine Im guessing?
Reply:Originally Posted by skinny99Increases traction on the drive axle.
Reply:Originally Posted by David HillmanIt does no such thing.  Traction is created by the tire deforming and gripping whatever imperfect surface it is rolling or sliding across.  All else being equal, traction is exactly the same whether you have an open diff, an LSD, or no diff at all ( ie welded gears ).  When you are trying to accelerate out of a corner, the inside drive tire becomes unweighted, which means it has less force deforming it into the surface than the outside drive tire.  With an open diff, power will be distributed to that tire, causing it to spin, and acceleration to stop.  The advantage of not having a differential, or having one that limits slip, is that they continue to power the outside wheel even when the inside wheel has be unweighted.   It's about distribution of power to the wheel(s) with available traction.  Nothing in the drivetrain can increase traction.
Reply:I've done this quite a few times with offroad vehicles accept I remove the centre shaft and replace it with a steel block. Then weld it all up inside. No cast worries this way.Kind of like this.My Photos on Flickr
Reply:Originally Posted by WildcatI've done this quite a few times with offroad vehicles accept I remove the centre shaft and replace it with a steel block. Then weld it all up inside. No cast worries this way.Kind of like this.
Reply:Originally Posted by WildcatI've done this quite a few times with offroad vehicles accept I remove the centre shaft and replace it with a steel block. Then weld it all up inside. No cast worries this way.Kind of like this.
Reply:Originally Posted by WildcatI've done this quite a few times with offroad vehicles accept I remove the centre shaft and replace it with a steel block. Then weld it all up inside. No cast worries this way.Kind of like this.
Reply:Here's one I did in my toyota mud/trail truck. It gets beat on pretty hard with big mud tires and I've never had any problems. Welded both the front and rear. I've seen diffs completely filled using flux core and stick and that's just stupid. Even seen them put in rear ends without cleaning them up first too. I'm sure the bearings really love that
Reply:I've done a bunch over the years. Everything from a Dana 20 to 14 bolts to Nissan 4 and 5 lug ifs pumpkins for drift/drag cars to even a fwd Honda Diff and the middle diff on an Evo. Trick is to either preheat it, or not get it hot in the first place. I try my best to degrease everything, hit what I can with a flap, or a 2" roloc, or barring that even a 1" wire cup brush on a die grinder. I've only had one break, and that was the one I decided to try different. A good friend of mine gave me a saying that rings true to this day. "The enemy of good is better!". This holds true.I've done them all MIG or stick. I either ran 1/8" 6013 at ~130A or 7018 at around the same. On MIG I just cranked it up as far as it would go. My recommendation: Pull the pumpkin, pull the bearings, if you have the time and ability the ring gear too. I've done them both ways and truthfully, it's easier and faster to pull it apart and put it back than try to pick thousands of little BB's out from crevices and ring gear teeth.Miller: 200dx, Bobcat 225, Passport, Powermax 45, Milwaukee: Dry Saw, MagDrill, grinders
Reply:Originally Posted by JohnR pumpkins for drag cars
Reply:the 240 drift kids do it all the time. Here is one I welded up. It was the old open 4.10 from my e30 scrap value as an open diff, sold for 60 as a welded unit.Originally Posted by zapsterTotally ILLEAGAL no matter where you go.Getting caught = Banishment from the track for good....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by JohnRWell, not in Mexico where most went. I was under the impression the ban from the race track stemmed from it being done to c-clip axles and the side gears shattering? I see no reason why it would be illegal in an IRS car since there is no chance of anything letting go? I know they're legal in auto-cross in the US like that..I'm not arguing against your position, I've seen some bad stuff happen at tracks due to cost-cutting measures and lazy techs/lying owners. Just asking for some more information from your end!
Reply:Originally Posted by JohnRWell, not in Mexico where most went. I was under the impression the ban from the race track stemmed from it being done to c-clip axles and the side gears shattering? I see no reason why it would be illegal in an IRS car since there is no chance of anything letting go? I know they're legal in auto-cross in the US like that..I'm not arguing against your position, I've seen some bad stuff happen at tracks due to cost-cutting measures and lazy techs/lying owners. Just asking for some more information from your end!
Reply:Ok, I'll bite. Why are the pinion gears even left in the carrier? "C" clip axle will need the pin to keep the clips in place. Once the side gears are welded, the pinion gears no longer serve a purpose. There is more surface area to weld at the side gear/carrier. Also, without the pinion gears, there is more room to possibly place more weldment to the gear/carrier.  It's an extra step, but removing the ring gear gives better access to the other side gear. Attached Images
Reply:I had my old mustang that I welded the diff in, my truck has front and rear welded diffs that I have been driving for a while now.. Street, no issues other than obvious chirpage of tires.. You wil be fin,e just weld the piss out of it.. Thats what i have done many times and had no issues. Had a spool in my racecar, (same as a welded diff or even a 'locker' when its locked) but they really push the car. Got a bitchin torsen diff and that thing is great!! Attached ImagesHTP Invertig 201Lincoln Idealarc SP250Miller 180 AC StickBy farmall:They should have held the seagull closer to the work, squeezing evenly for best deposition.