What size rod for joining 2x2 1/8 wall tubing?

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I'm playing around building a small square frame with casters to hold a work table. My fit up was mediocre : 1/16+ of gap when butting the 2x2s up against each other. It seemed like the 6011 1/8" rod (unknown origin and age) I was running  @ ~125+ amps was getting pulled into the crack and I'd end up with a distinct channel 1/16 or so wide with what appeared to be two beads on either side. Once i struck the arc I was weaving back and forth hitting the tops of the bevel in a tight zig zag pattern. I also have some 3/16" (might even by 1/4") 7018 H4R rod.... is using a rod this big overkill for something like this? Stuff runs smooth, makes me look like i know what I'm doing. Could fill up that whole beveled channel quite easilyhad pics, they've disappeared  wish i had them.something like this, clean metal, used an angle grinder to slightly bevel both sides... tubing, not solid bar like in the pic Attached ImagesLast edited by BlauSchuh; 11-10-2012 at 08:06 PM.ESAB Heliarc 252
Reply:125 amps is on the high side for every listing I have for 1/8" 6011. Most list 70-120 as the range, with a few listing 55 as the minimum.For material only 1/8" thick, I'd probably opt for 3/32" rods rather than 1/8", though I could make 1/8" work. Especially with a gap, I'd be able to run a bit cooler and have a bit better control..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Ditto DSW
Reply:+3 on 3/32Or 1/8 if ya gottaMiller bobcat 225g  - spoolmatic 1Mm250 - 30a spoolMiller spectrum 375Thermal arc 95 Everlast Ex 250As the boiler turns, these are the days of our lives
Reply:thanks guys. With stuff that small are you zig zag-ing like I described? Other wise I think I'd end up a small bead at the bottom of a wide bevel.I've got some REALLY small 6013 rod. Not sure what the size is, but it looks puny next to the 7018. I'd imagine I'd be in the 70 amp range for that stuff... I think I tried running it over a 100 and I was busting right through the walls.Not sure what's up but I have a hard time getting anything under 100 amps started, regardless off the rod type and diameter. Maybe I need to play around a bit moreESAB Heliarc 252
Reply:Maybe part of the issue is we can't exactly see what you are dealing with, but I think I'm understanding what your situation is.You don't have to fill 100% in one pass. You could run 2 or 3 beads to fill if the radius of the tube is big enough. The only time I usually run into that is with thicker wall tube though. You could also do some sort of weave or motion to fill as well.On average I usually like to keep the rod size smaller than the base material thickness, though if they are the same it can work. That's especially true the thinner the material gets. It is possible to make larger rods work, but the heat usually needs to be controlled more carefully to avoid blowing big holes in things. Having students try to weld 1/8" material with 1/8" rods usually is asking for them to make a big mess, unless they are fairly well along and really can control the rods to manipulate the puddle and control the heat. 6011 being a deep penetrating rod will really cause issues with blowing holes in things at higher amps unless you are fairly decent with it. I've seen guys who can do thin sheet with 6010/11 and 3/32" or 1/8" rods, but they are usually the exception to the rule and are very good. Most guys can't get the fine balance between blowing holes in the material with the rod digging and getting the puddle to freeze fast enough to work with thin stuff.Your other option would be to switch to a rod that doesn't penetrate as much, and deposits more material. In that case you can run a slightly bigger rod in some cases. 7018, 7014, 6013 and 7024 would all be candidates. Again you have to watch how many amps you run and I'd probably start on the lower 1/2 of the rods range myself..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:i would go with 3/32 7018 or 6013 but thats just me
Reply:3/32 or 1/8 7018 is what i use most of the time on that type of fabrication work6011 is going to spatter all over and make a big unnecessary mess to clean upon new clean 1/8 wall tubing you won't have a pen problem using 7018Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:I have some 3/32 7018 and some 1/8 7024 left over from something or other, if you want a handfull of each to play with let me know. I would use the 7018 if it was me, or if i was at the bench and could flip it the 7024 will weld it for you.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Originally Posted by TozziWeldingI have some 3/32 7018 and some 1/8 7024 left over from something or other, if you want a handfull of each to play with let me know. I would use the 7018 if it was me, or if i was at the bench and could flip it the 7024 will weld it for you.
Reply:I hate 6013, the only man on earth that makes 6013 look good is Pipefitter from Ireland.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:3/32" 7018 set at about 85 ampsAirco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:With that much of a bevel, are you planning to grind / file the beads smooth?  If so, 6013 is much easier to deal with than 7018...
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzitWith that much of a bevel, are you planning to grind / file the beads smooth?  If so, 6013 is much easier to deal with than 7018...
Reply:Originally Posted by BlauSchuh...When that happens what should i do with the end of the rod? snip the end off so I have a clean end? Is it ok to restart with an ugly black rod.
Reply:Blau,     Your posting sound a lot like me a few years ago.  Check out http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=38624   ... I got some exceptional advice from the folks on this board, particularly the recommendations from FarmerSamm.   Meant to post this up earlier, couldn't find the posting via the welding web search engine.   thank goodness for goggle "Site:weldingweb.com  xxxx yyyyy zzzz" searches!   There is a lot of great info back there in the old stuff... --zip
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzitBlau,     Your posting sound a lot like me a few years ago.  Check out http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=38624   ... I got some exceptional advice from the folks on this board, particularly the recommendations from FarmerSamm.   Meant to post this up earlier, couldn't find the posting via the welding web search engine.   thank goodness for goggle "Site:weldingweb.com  xxxx yyyyy zzzz" searches!   There is a lot of great info back there in the old stuff... --zip
Reply:Originally Posted by BlauSchuhyour 3th pic in the first post of that thread is close to what i was seeing.
Reply:Definitely get some 3/32" rod. The Lincoln 7018AC sold at big box stores is ideal for your application. It works on DC as well as AC, and it re-starts easier than regular 7018.Keep your fit-up tight, no more than 1/16" gap. Some bevel is good, but not really necessary for metal that thin.BTW, the section you quoted from the manual refers to TIG, not stick. DCEP is preferred for most stick welding.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Originally Posted by Silicon-basedDefinitely get some 3/32" rod. The Lincoln 7018AC sold at big box stores is ideal for your application. It works on DC as well as AC, and it re-starts easier than regular 7018.Keep your fit-up tight, no more than 1/16" gap. Some bevel is good, but not really necessary for metal that thin.BTW, the section you quoted from the manual refers to TIG, not stick. DCEP is preferred for most stick welding.John
Reply:Straight polarity / reverse polarity are the old terms for DC+ / DC-. I can never remember which is which that way and prefer electrode positive or electrode negative for simplicity. Most DC rods run DC electrode positive with stick, but there are some exceptions to this general rule.. Tig would run DC-.7018 generally is electrode positive. Some rods like 6013 will run DC pos or DC neg. depending on the application. If you want a shallow weld for sheet metal, then this is one situation where DC neg is  an option..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by BlauSchuhI find myself, at lower amperage settings, striking an arc and then getting the rod stuck to the work piece. Once i get up to around 125 amps it hardly ever happens. It's probably user error and I need to practice. When that happens what should i do with the end of the rod? snip the end off so I have a clean end? Is it ok to restart with an ugly black rod.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellI'm very much a novice, so take this with a grain of salt, but if I found myself consistently having to use higher amperage settings to avoid sticking, the first thing I would do would be to check the quality of the ground. Is the ground clamp on clean metal? If you have the work piece sitting on a welding table, is the table surface clean, or is it covered in scale. Try try clamping directly to the work piece to rule out the table as a cause. Are the connections on the ground clamp and stinger clean and secure? Etc... It may be that your machine just runs a little cold and when it's set to 125, it's not really putting out 125, but I would rule out bad connections first.Another test that I do is, if I am having trouble getting the arc started and sticking, I can usually, if I'm veeeery careful, get one going. Rub the rod along the metal a few times, allowing some current to flow, but not letting it stick, until the end of the rod gets red hot. That will make it easier to start an arc. Once the arc is going, run a bead. If the bead is high, with little penetration, like water balling up on a waxed car, that means your amps are just too low, and the "sticking" is not your technique. If, once you get the arc started, it runs a flat bead with good penetration, then your amps are okay and the sticking is your technique.
Reply:Ran a few lap joints and tee joints last night. Need to find more scrap to ruin 1)  lap and tee joint are Hobart 3/32 7018 @ 125 amps AC2) 1/8 Hobart 7014 @ 150 amps dcen3) First useful weld. A plate to attach a caster for my welding table. Three more plates to go. 3/32 Hobart 7018 @125 AC the 7018 box says 80-100 amps, yet i seem to have issues at 100... right around 125 seems to work best. The 7014 box says 100-140, yet I need to really crank it around 150 or a bit more to get it going well.... I guess my dial is giving me a few amps less than it states.On joints like the T. I get to point where there seems to be so much crud in the air I have a hard time seeing where to steer the weld.I had trouble tacking the plate in place with 1/8 7014. NO idea why. I struck the arc and really tried to jam in that corner to hit both surfaces, but I ended up with a bead on the plate, but not on the tubing. I mean no ZERO penetration on the tubing. Tried 4x... same results each time hitting the affected areas with the grinder. I then switched to AC and 3/32 7018, dropped the amps a bit, and was able to get a tack the first time and second time on the opposite side with ease. Attached ImagesESAB Heliarc 252