Warranty work on heavy equipment.

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Had a job done on one of our dump trucks had a pin come out, the driver didn't notice it went to dump and almost lost the whole dump bed.I called in my welder because this was way above my skill level.He had to cut out the whole floor and reconstruct it.Next post.Will   Supports Autism Awareness                            My ToysBobCat 225 PLusMillermatic 130Miller Spectrum 300 CutmateEverlast Power Tig 185 Micro April is Autism Month .
Reply:Now here is where the problem comes in, when the repairs were complete I put the truck back in service. A little more than a month later they broke it again. I think it was overloaded. 1. As you can see the beam was pushed back.2.And from the beam being pushed I believe it rolled this down.  ^^^^^^This is a pic of the style of lift on the truck.Now here's the question on a job like this how long of a warranty would you give? And does this look like it was overloaded or poor workmanship?Last edited by Steelwill; 04-12-2013 at 10:05 AM.Will   Supports Autism Awareness                            My ToysBobCat 225 PLusMillermatic 130Miller Spectrum 300 CutmateEverlast Power Tig 185 Micro April is Autism Month .
Reply:I'm having issues making out the exact damage, but from what I see of the steel where the welds tore out, I'd say it's a fabrication/weld issue vs abuse ( though I won't rule out that abuse played a part in this)I'd like to see detailed picts of the circled areas. I'm guessing there really wasn't good penetration into the base material from what little I can see. I'm also thinking the bent plate in pict 2 looks a bit on the light side compared to what I've seen on most trucks I'd worked on over the years.As far as "warranty" if it was me, I'd redo it if it was my fault.  Even if I thought it was abuse, and not my welds that failed, I'd probably work a "deal" with the owner to keep a good working relation with them. The exact deal would depend on things I really can't see from the picts shown... Exact original conditions, what was or wasn't replaced, damage there actually is etc. Probably something like cost of materials and a reduced labor rate. That's just what a good craftsman does. I do know plenty of guys who would want to blame everyone else but themselves when things like this fail..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Here the photo's you requested DSW.Will   Supports Autism Awareness                            My ToysBobCat 225 PLusMillermatic 130Miller Spectrum 300 CutmateEverlast Power Tig 185 Micro April is Autism Month .
Reply:IMHO thats a weld failure, that looks like 6010 or 6011 welds, which are good for some things, but create brittle welds that are prone to crack in applications like this... I think 7018 looks like it would have been a better choice, and this is for sure something that I'd weld out completely, not just skip weld like that... I think I see some 7018 in that last pic, right next to the split weld, and it's held just fine.[Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009
Reply:Looks like you need to find a new weldor
Reply:whoah everyone.  You can see the weld failed because the cross member twisted due to the fact that the hoist is putting such a rearward push against it at the beginning of it's lift.  The problem isn't so much the weld as the use of channel ( or maybe it's just flat iron, not sure) without more gussets.  This is where square tube would shine as it has much more torsional strength than channel or angle.  That original angle iron that the hoist pins to should have been backed up by a square tube crossmember.
Reply:Originally Posted by SteelwillHere the photo's you requested DSW.
Reply:On a good weld , the steel will separate or rip from the weld. The entire weld bead is intact and the metal ripped away from the weld. The weld should be stronger then the steel not weaker.It looks like a poor weld to me. Lets vote on it.
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1On a good weld , the steel will separate or rip from the weld. The entire weld bead is intact and the metal ripped away from the weld. The weld should be stronger then the steel not weaker.It looks like a poor weld to me. Lets vote on it.
Reply:Originally Posted by jamesyarbroughLooks like you need to find a new weldor
Reply:What did the welder say?  Did he do all of the fabrication or only the welding?  If he only did the welding then he only offer to re weld the failed joint. If fabed the whole bottom of the bed then it's all on him.
Reply:I'm voting for both design problems and bad welds.  Obviously the welds failed - not too much more to say there.  Seems likely the cross beam was going to twist either way and needs to be either braced or replaced with something more appropriate.  Tying it to the adjacent cross beam (behind it) with a piece of channel located right behind the brackets seems like it would help a lot.
Reply:Like Cd stated. That's a lot of stress on the bottom edge of channel. It appears that at that point it could have been boxed in with channel tying in the bottom. The new channel going across the bed needs channel perpendicular to it fit inside . You would have like  2'X2' boxes.Whatever the spacing is on the channel add new pieces to fit inside.
Reply:Originally Posted by kaldWhat did the welder say?  Did he do all of the fabrication or only the welding?  If he only did the welding then he only offer to re weld the failed joint. If fabed the whole bottom of the bed then it's all on him.
Reply:Originally Posted by SteelwillHe did it all the fab and welding, I just ordered the materials. We ordered the channel and everthing to put it all back as it was before it was damaged.
Reply:whether the weld broke or the base metal broke is going to depend on the welding rod used to a degree.  From the pictures you gave us, the design is more the flaw than the weld by a long shot.
Reply:First of all, I think it was a bad weld. The penetration, or lack thereof, speaks for itself.Second, I think it was a poor design. Beyond it's limit is expected. What knucklehead working a construction job ever follows the rules? Let's face it, if they were smarter, they wouldn't be driving a dump truck for a living.Third, if the original design was bad, I would call the manufacturer and get advice. Maybe they have improved their design and can send plans so that you can update the bed. Maybe they will help with the cost. Fourth, if no glory on #3, then I would talk to the owner and tell him that the design sucks. Then ask how HE wants it, repaired to original condition or upgraded in both design and materials. This is a great opportunity to shine in the spotlight for a customer.Fifth, Can you install a hydraulic bypass in the line? Pressure X surface area of the cylinder = force. If the pump can generate more pressure than the bed and truck is designed to hold then I would install a pressure bypass that stops filling the cylinder once it reaches the maximum force. I would even put it at 9 tons if it was a 10 ton truck. Hydraulics are great for measuring force. Look at the top of all our presses!! Sixth, if the owner really wants to protect his assests, have him install a hydraulic metering device connected to a recording system where he can review lift forces and amount of dumps. When you have digital records of loads being lifted, it is hard to say you didn't abuse the dang thing. Just my ideas for solutions here. Let me know how you go.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:There's a 'chicken or the egg' thing going here. Sure you always have to look at the weaknesses like lack of penectration and members too thin,,,,, but then you also have to try and determine if those weaknesses actually caused the failure or not.  Were the weak points the causes or did they just manifest themselves or not prevent the failure. A weld that tore loose when the member bent. Why did the member bend? And if the weld hadn't torn, would the member still have bent? If that member had been stronger then everything would have been okay or something else might have given way? Maybe we had the bed all the way up, dumped the clutch and the whole dern load slammed down in an instant too. How strong do you make the bed? Strong enough to rip the frame or tip the truck over? Lots of things to look at."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:The geometry on the hoist makes it a little hard to tell how much force there will be on that cross beam.
Reply:That was a bit of both. Whenever I do a repair like that the last thing I wanna do is have to cut it all apart again to get at it. I go above and beyond on jobs like this knowing these trucks get over abused. Those welds were good from far and far from good, and it was welded like he only had 3 rods left and kept it down to a minimal. Now to the driver, THEY STINK, with no regard for overloading and beating the crap out of equipment with no regard. I do work for a guy with ten wheel dumpers, and he had a 80ton truck break in half on the highway from a pothole. It was loaded 120ton  Mega mega fine, and the judge told him he wished he could put him in jail for being stupid! I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Bad welds, bad design and no doubt an overload.  A weld like it was done on a design like that just wants to "unzip" or peel off from the point of most stress.  Had the weld been better and gone around the corner it might have at least torn off the main member."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:I can't believe the lift point to the body is that far back, wow.
Reply:That truck is a 1999 and its been run hard. We have two more identical trucks but they have a different style lift on them. The hydraulic lift is in the very front of the dump bed.Will   Supports Autism Awareness                            My ToysBobCat 225 PLusMillermatic 130Miller Spectrum 300 CutmateEverlast Power Tig 185 Micro April is Autism Month .
Reply:I'm not sure I'd have the person who welded this repair it even tho, IMHO they're obligated to if it fails.I think you'd probably be better off writing off whatever you paid him as a loss, and taking it to someone else.I'm sure that wasn't cheap, but if he fixes it again, it could just fail again... I bet downtime costs you guys mucho dinero, and it might be worth it to call it a loss... Idk, something to think about. You know your situation better than I do...[Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009Originally Posted by cd19whoah everyone.  You can see the weld failed because the cross member twisted due to the fact that the hoist is putting such a rearward push against it at the beginning of it's lift.
Reply:Everyone keeps talking about how far back the lift point is but how long is the box?  Look how far back the axle is.
Reply:The arrow points to some poor welding. Attached Images
Reply:If you look at the big rig dumps, they have a multi stage hydraulic cylinder at the very front of the truck bed. The bed doesn't pivot on the frame, rather the whole thing pivots on the rear wheels of the truck. Impressive stuff.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:Originally Posted by SteelwillHad a job done on one of our dump trucks had a pin come out, the driver didn't notice it went to dump and almost lost the whole dump bed.........
Reply:Ive done repairs similar to this.. from the pics its definitely a combo of poor weld and steel failure. just my 2 cents
Reply:Why does everyone always jump on welding quality as the issue???Maybe 1 in 10 welders actually qualify as good designers.  "It's gotta be the weld", "Gotta put more weld on it".  The lift point is too close to the bed pivot.  Do you have any idea how much stress is on that structure at that point?  Hydraulics keep pushing, and the structure will yield at some point if it's not designed right.The idea is NOT to repair an existing bad design, the idea is to REINFORCE the bad design, or re-design it.Don't blame your welder, blame the manufacturer."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Just a thought, but after seeing that bent plate in picture #2, that looks like the kind of damage you would get if you raised the body and forgot to open the tailgate. It has happened many times and can pull the truck right off the ground. That kind of force will test any welds.
Reply:How old is the repair, it looks like none of the mill scale was ground away on the new plates, no penetration, not enough gussets, all in all unfortunately I would say poor repair job. if the dump was overloaded the structure would be all tore up and bent, the welds wouldn't be coming apart.
Reply:The third picture in post #2 tells the whole story. The area designed to handle compressive forces overextended which created a tensile force situation. This area has no reinforcement to resist what is essentially the exact opposite force that it is designed for. The repair design simply did not take into account the huge opposite stresses possible created when incidents such as a failed tailgate release or heavy, sticky loads hang in the box. It is common practice for a driver to "rock the box" or "clutch hop" in an attempt to clear out the load. In a more conventional hoist configuration such as single ram/doghouse style this can be accomplished with very little chance of damage to a healthy box setup. If you combine this practice with the hoist pictured here and the positioning so far back as it is, the leverage on that upper hoist mount is unbelievable. In other words the load and box itself is is becoming the very instrument of destruction all focused in the one are in a direction it just wasn't designed to handle.The placement of this hoist requires that you use a ridiculously powerful ram in order to raise the load. It also puts a negative load on the hinges and rear frame horns and magnifies the stresses throughout the bed. I really don't like the design. Once metal fatigue and the inevitable "patch upon patch" of old dump boxes sets in then it is time to retire it.If I was face with this repair I would have used more gusseting, stick welded with 7018 and expressed that I could not guarantee the repair and the owner would accept all liability, but then this is all in hindsight.
Reply:Looking at the way the steel is twisted it appears to have torn either from the load sticking in the bed, or while lowering the bed. The cylinder in the picture appears to be a double acting cylinder (power up and power down). Most dump beds are power up and gravity down. Could the load have been frozen to the bed? If it is power down was something on the frame rails while lowering it? But even with all that said the welds do not look adequate. Just my 2 cents.
Reply:I see several people starting to ault the origional design of the box, but I can tell you that this is not a new design  Actually I did not know that they were using this in stuff as new as 99.  From my experiencewith them, they tend to e a good hoist.  Alot of times stronger and more stable then a single piston dump.  the base design is tried and true.Bruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:Here's what should have happened: Normally, as the scissors-type hoist extends, it would exert rearward pressure (blue arrow) through the twin parallel Scissor Links, which are pinned to the Angle Anchor bracket. Since the Angle Anchor is normally strongly attached to the Dump Body, the hoist cannot push Angle Anchor rearward and thus instead the body is raised in a radius that's centered at the body's rear hinge pins.Here's what did happen: The hoist mechanism began to extend, pushing the Scissor Links with a force in the direction of the blue arrow and exerting this force on the Angle Anchor. Since the Angle Anchor was not suitably attached to the dumb body, it was easier to roll (yellow arrow)  the angle around the fulcrum point of its heel, rather than to raise the body. During the roll of the Angle Anchor at its heel, the leading edge of the Angle Anchor began to pull away from the body and Sub Plate to which Angle was attached. As the angle's leading edge continued to pull away from the body, Sub Plate became deformed. Once deformation of  Sub Plate reached an extreme, welds attaching the Angle Anchor to the Sub Plate reached yield.IMHO, with this design of attaching the Angle Anchor to the body, through the Sub Plate, not even the best welds in the world would have been sufficient to restrain the Angle Anchor against the forces it would be subject to. Whereas with a design which provided more adequate attachment and  restraint for the Angle Anchor, even lesser welds would have been sufficient. (For example, if Angle's leading edge had been "blocked" to the channel sub-frame with pieces held primarily in compression. ) As it was -even with better welds- Sub Plate was bound to pull away from the body. Therefore I would have to pin the failure primarily on (re?) design.But to ask a shop that to begin with was willing to accept this "challenge" into their world, to now take it all on the chin?  I'd say "no" because there's a lot here that's less than ideal, and they've at least been willing to try to work with it. It doesn't look like too rough of a rework anyway. Block Angle Anchor up, use the weight of the box to push things back to location, add a few strategic reinforcements.Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 04-13-2013 at 10:49 PM.
Reply:Allow me to say that I am not a welder.However I have driven a truck once or twice.I have also seen this type of failure.Tailgate was not open or material larger than tailgate did not allow load to escape the end of the box. Stumps and or large rocks and sometimes construction demo.The weight of the load pulled it apart not the power of the hyrdaulics. Just my opinion and I say again I am not a welder. A conversation with the driver will answer many things. Although not many would admit to forgetting the tailgate.Regards Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by snowshoveler. . .Tailgate was not open or material larger than tailgate did not allow load to escape the end of the box. Stumps and or large rocks and sometimes construction demo.The weight of the load pulled it apart not the power of the hyrdaulics.
Reply:Originally Posted by snowshovelerAllow me to say that I am not a welder.However I have driven a truck once or twice.I have also seen this type of failure.Tailgate was not open or material larger than tailgate did not allow load to escape the end of the box. Stumps and or large rocks and sometimes construction demo.The weight of the load pulled it apart not the power of the hyrdaulics. Just my opinion and I say again I am not a welder. A conversation with the driver will answer many things. Although not many would admit to forgetting the tailgate.Regards Chris
Reply:Just looking at the pictures...the box was up much further than its designed limit.The welds peeled up and open. It would have been almost verticle. Grab a kids tonka toy and operate the box a couple times. The weight was all on the tailgate, when it reached critical height it failed. Either the box opens or the truck stands up on its azz. Have seen the frame of the truck fold right in front of the foreward spring hanger. Have seen a tandem which was parked overnight , load froze on one side and the truck fell over. Totaled it. The load needs to leave the box in the designed manner. There is no way it can handle the weight on the tailgate.I am stickin with the driver knows more on this. Regards Chris
Reply:I agree with weldermike this truck is owned buy a a city public works department, for one thing it does not make any money.  If you read steewill post in january about the snow plow frame you can put two and two together, look at the rust on the body they use this truck as a snowplow and salter truck. The repair lasted a whole month the driver did something and is not telling now his boss is asking questions. Is this the same driver that broke the snow plow frame.  Aiso every goverment body in Michigan is tight on money so did they go with cheapest repair and not what the welder or steewill wanted.
Reply:The "critical point" for a scissor-type hoist is the first few inches of box lift.At the beginning of the cycle, the hoist is "trying desperately" to shove the box rearward off of the back of the chassis. During the start of the lift cycle is when loads are greatest to the hoist's anchor points.  Believe it or not, as the box is raised, with mechanical advantage and counterweight gains, loads on the hoist anchors actually lessen.Except for side tipping dangers, once a loaded box is seen to rise off of the sub-frame, the deed is as good as done.This anchor was bent away during the earliest part of the lift cycle.Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 04-14-2013 at 02:58 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeThis is what i'm starting to believe, although DENREP does have some valid points. It got SLAMMED on a slideback with the door shut, or was rocking straight up with a full load just tearing and and peeling till the driver realized the door was shut. Just my opinion tho. I think the driver is the only one who knows the truth on this one. But no doubt that repair was by FAR a very WIMPY one when your dealing with hydraulics.
Reply:Hey there Denrep...looking at the pics I beleive that the truck is indeed a single axle dumper 3 ton or 5 ton perhaps.The scissor lift hoist usually gets a bad rep from the telescopic hoist operators but from what I have seen over the years its weak point is usually the driver not using the truck properly. Bouncing the truck foreward to get the last little bit out of the box. Fair play it will last just about ever. However it has no tolerence for a sticky load or a closed tailgate.We need more info from the poster, well at least I would like more about it.  Regards Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by MilkermanI agree with weldermike this truck is owned buy a a city public works department, for one thing it does not make any money.  If you read steewill post in january about the snow plow frame you can put two and two together, look at the rust on the body they use this truck as a snowplow and salter truck. The repair lasted a whole month the driver did something and is not telling now his boss is asking questions. Is this the same driver that broke the snow plow frame.  Aiso every goverment body in Michigan is tight on money so did they go with cheapest repair and not what the welder or steewill wanted.
Reply:I just noticed the hack job channell in the middle is bent as well. Not to throw more crap in the game but could that failure/break/peelup have come from the channell collapsing and being over extended in the down position? We should be welding detectives! Get the driver! We'll get the truth out of him!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Yup ...get the driver...50 lashes with a stinger and we can make him talk. Welding crew turns CSI, I love it. Chris
Reply:If you look at the picture in post 28 it looks like the c channel is not one piece running accross the bed. It appears to be a piece three pieces. Also looks like it it where the lift is attached to the bed.