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I am exploring purchase of a 110/220 volt plasma cutter. Non production, hobby, home, farm use. Max cut probably in 3/8th inch steel, most cuts less than that. Duty cycle not critical but I want the flexibility of dual voltage.I have read enough to know that there are at least four reasonably well known brands/models to consider: Hypertherm PowerMax 380 ($1050), Miller Spectrum 375 Xtreme ($1184), Lincoln ProCut 25 ($1242) and Thermal Dynamics Cut Master 38 ($1120)Only the Miller seems to be an inverter based unit and weighs about half of the others yet it is about the same price as the transformer units based on ebay pricing. Portability is somewhat of an issue for me: are there any downsides to the inverter?Does one of these four machines stand out?
Reply:I'm in the same boat...weighing the differences, would like to read some opinions before buying.I do like the size of the miller!Last edited by MicroZone; 10-02-2006 at 05:21 PM.John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:I have a Miller 375 ( ..not an extreme IIRC) could be wrong)).. Cut everything that fits under the torch. I've cut 1" shafts with it... Not in one pass, but more like 'air arcing' about half away, turn cut some more, etc..etc. I like the fact it's 110/220, cause Ihave access to more 110 than I do 220... ( can cut ANYWHERE, instead of next to the dryer outlet )
Reply:I have the Hypertherm Powermax 380 and I love it.I have had it for about 5 years and it has worked flawlessly.I don't know anything about the Miller inverter based unit but I can tell you that my Hypertherm isn't hard to transport at all. It's small enough to take almost anywhere....and a tip for more portability. I take one of my small Nitrogen tanks (that I have for filling off-road shocks) with me for the air supply so I don't have to lug around a compressor. - PaulLast edited by ZTFab; 10-03-2006 at 10:53 AM.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:In terms of plasma cutters, I'm not sure there's much value in purchasing either red or blue. Hypertherm and Thermal Dynamics both have an excellent reputation and I believe have also been making them longer than Miller or Lincoln. I've never heard mention of someone having purchased either and regretting it afterwards. With all that said, I don't believe there's much of a quality difference in any of the units that you listed. I personally have an older Hypertherm that has performed flawlessly. I'd suggest that the state and quality of the consumables will make more difference than the power supply.I would warn you that I have heard many folks mention that they wished they had initially purchased a larger unit, but that would likely put you out of the range of a dual voltage machine.-Heath
Reply:Thanks to all of you who have responded so far. Unfortuantely none of you have made the choice any easier. It sounds like 1) they are all respectable units and 2) Hypertherm and Thermal Dynamics have been in the business longer. 3) Plasma cutters in this range (dual voltage) are pretty basic machines without fancy do da's to compare.Are there any features that stand out in any of the machines (other than the Miller's inverter) that should be taken into account? One of you mentioned consumables, does any of the four companies stand out in that regard?Thanks
Reply:I have a Hobart Air Force 400 and am very happy with it. Just to confuse you a little more.Drivesector Hobart Handler 140Hobart Handler 180Ready Welder 2Hobart Air Force 400Airco Stinger 225Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."OZZY"
Reply:I sure could've used a plasma tonight. Attempting to cut through 2 layers of aluminum on a radiator support brace for a 2500HD truck. John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by drivesectorI have a Hobart Air Force 400 and am very happy with it. Just to confuse you a little more.
Reply:I have a thermal dynamics cutmaster 51. and i love it. works great. Consumables are not too expensive.
Reply:Check the price and availability of consumables in addition to how long they are expected to last.-Heath
Reply:Originally Posted by halbrittCheck the price and availability of consumables in addition to how long they are expected to last.
Reply:I have been shopping and watching E-Bay for a plasma cutter and have been looking at the same models you mentioned.That is.....untill I was at my Local Welding Supply and had a Spectrum X-Treme in my hands today.....Oh Man.....I AM going to have one of those in a couple of weeks!I never really comprehended how small it is untill seeing it first hand.The Maxstar 150 and the Specrum X-Treme are both small enough for me to throw the strap over my shoulder and climb up a CAGED ladder with.Patrick
Reply:i am pretty sure hypertherm makes some or most of millers machines
Reply:Miller make the smaller machines for Hypertherm. All of them are inverters, but I believe the X-tream is based on the Maxstar 150 power supply, like the Passport. The X-tream cuts the same as the standard 375 as far as I can tell.I still think the Thermal Dynamics SL-60 torch has a better arc start/ standoff range then the others. Attached ImagesLast edited by Scott V 2; 10-04-2006 at 08:39 PM.
Reply:I dont know if the Hobart Air Force is the same as the Miller 375 non inverter model. But I can tell you it is 110v/220V.Drivesector Hobart Handler 140Hobart Handler 180Ready Welder 2Hobart Air Force 400Airco Stinger 225Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."OZZY"
Reply:I believe that all of the units referenced are inverter models, just that some are smaller and more efficient than others, which can be accomplished by using higher frequency switching components.Consumables that need to be replaced are generally the electrode and the nozzle. There should be some data out there about the length of cut one can expect to get out of a set of consumables. I seem to recall that Hypertherm has the lowest cost of consumables, but I'm not certain. If I can dig up some data, I'll post it to this thread. However, you should check out your LWS to see what they have on hand and what kind of pricing they offer as that's where you'll end up when you need consumables in a hurry.In spite of whatever data is available, consumable life is dependent upon several factors, including the moisture content in the air supply, amount of piercing vs. edge-started cuts, standoff distance, cutting speed, and current.These factors can have an impact on consumable life regardless of what the consumables are rated for. When people first learn to use a plasma cutter, consumable life is very short. If consumables cost twice as much, but are designed to last three times as long, it's not going to matter as they'll get destroyed in a hurry by someone that's new to plasma cutting.-Heath
Reply:I'm kinda surprised to hear that all the units are inverter units as I thought that was the reason the Miller was half the weight of all the others.Your description of the factors involved in consumable life is very helpful. Does anyone know of a "plasma cutting handbook" similar to the well known welding handbooks to act as a tutorial for a beginner?
Reply:I don't think anyone really makes a non inverter plasma cutter any more. I believe the Hypertherm Max 100 (and 200) was probably the last of the bunch.-Heath
Reply:Originally Posted by halbrittI don't think anyone really makes a non inverter plasma cutter any more. I believe the Hypertherm Max 100 (and 200) was probably the last of the bunch.
Reply:I stand corrected. It looks like a lot of the larger mechanized plasma cutters aren't inverters.-Heath
Reply:Why is the Miller Xtreme half the weight of the other similar sized (power) plasma cutters? Is there some difference in the type of inverter used? Is there any reason to believe that the Miller's light weight is a disadvantage for endurance etc?As I go through this process I am now thinking that my choice is gradually narrowing to the Hypertherm 380 or the Miller Xtreme 375. Tilting towards the Miller due to size and weight but would go with the Hypertherm (industry leader etc) if there is a downside to the Miller's weight advantage. Again, my use is non professional so heavy use is not in the plans (therefore consumable price not a huge factor) but I do want a reliable unit that is based on reasonably well tested technology.
Reply:The small 110/220 plasma cutters are smaller machines with often respectable capabilities, but they are still smaller machines with smaller capabilities than a big industrial machine.That said, the Miller Xtreme 375 is -small- and still pretty capable for smaller duties. Its advantages are small size (think about the size of two loaves of bread stacked on top of each other) and small weight (18 lbs!) and the ability to run on 110 or 220V. It would not be the right machine for day-in and day-out shop usage. Need small, portable, dual voltage and cut capability up to 3/8 (1/4 on 110V) quality cut up to 5/8 (3/8 on 110V) for a sever cut (more ragged cut) on steel? The Xtreme 375 will do that. But the duty cycle is 20% to 35%. The air requirements are 5 CFM at 90-110 psi.The Miller Spectrum 375 is dual voltage also, is bigger in size and weight (49 lbs for the unit, 57 lbs with cables), has longer cables than the Xtreme (20 foot compared to 12 foot for the Xtreme), similar capabilities and duty cycles and the air requirements are 4.5 CFM at 60/90 psi (conflicting specs on Miller's website). It has a 3 year warranty with 1 year on the torch.Hmmmm, checking about the Lincoln Pro-Cut 25 shows a 60%-100% duty cycle on a 230V-30A circuit and only 4 CFM at 65psi air. The warranty is 2 year, with one year on the torch.Note that to run these machines at max output on 110-115V requires a 30A circuit. The Lincoln Pro-Cut 25 has a greater current draw (19A at 230V and 25A output 60% duty cycle) than the Miller Spectrum 375 (14A at 230V and 27A output 35% duty cycle). Note that duty cycle may be ambient temperature dependent, so hotter shops may mean a shorter duty cycle.If you are cutting thinner materials, then you can dial down the output amps and get longer duty cycles and less input current required.Need more capability in material thickness and a longer duty cycle? You need to move up to a bigger (price, size, weight, power) machine.
Reply:I'm not sure about plasma cutting power supplies specifically, but I do know a little about inverter welding power supplies and why they may be lighter than transformer only power supplies.Inverters generally are oscillated at a given frequency using switching components. These days those are generally IGBTs. Certain types of transformers are more efficient at higher frequencies, thus, the higher the frequency, the smaller the transformer needs to be. There is a tradeoff in cost, though as higher frequency switching devices are generally more costly. However, as technology evolves, these devices become cheaper. Filter capacitors also get smaller at higher frequencies as well.I've got an old PowCon inverter which uses SCRs that operate between 5-8khz approximately. Today's modern IGBT based inverters operate well above that range, I believe in the 20-30khz region.I'm looking at some recent IGBTs from International Rectifier and I see that they have "ultrafast" products in the 8-40khz and 8-60khz range. They've also got some other products in the "warp" range that go 60-150khz. I imagine that as these parts handle more current and get cheaper that power supply manufacturers will start to use them and as a result, power supplies will get smaller and more efficient.-Heath
Reply:Originally Posted by halbrittI'm not sure about plasma cutting power supplies specifically, but I do know a little about inverter welding power supplies and why they may be lighter than transformer only power supplies.While doing demo and remod work on oven at auto plant we had to use 110machines. Both miller 375's died one of two lincoln 25's died whille Esab handiman and hypertherm 380's never had a problem. We ran machines off generators due to snafu in planning. If real power would have been available hypertherm 1000,s would've been used. The conditions were terrible 130 degrees average temp and dusty as Iraq.
Reply:Originally Posted by IslandThat is exactly why I was assuming the Miller Xtreme was an inverter while all the others were transformer based. I cannot find anything in the literature of the other cutters to suggest that they are inverter based. As only Miller seems to make an inverter based MIG at this point I thought maybe they were the only ones with an inverter based plasma cutter too.
Reply:Originally Posted by halbrittAfter looking at this unit I vote that you purchase it instead of the others because it's so damn cute.
Reply:Bringing this thread back to life...so what was the verdict? Im seriously looking at the Miller 375 Xtreme, and the Thermadyne Cutmaster 51.Any others on here have thoughts between the two or other considerations for us who have no/little knowledge with plasma? Would an entire garage of blue be a welding faux pas?ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:A couple of suggestions:1. Try and test drive your potential models. I was able to and just a few cuts with various machines allowed me "feel" the difference. Test drag cutting, standoff cutting, cutting with a straight edge, free hand, etc.2. Find out if your LWS will sell consumables (electrodes and nozzles) in small or single quantities instead of having to buy packs of 5 or 10. This way, if you need some, you only have to drop $20-30 instead of $100 or more.As mentioned by Heath, a new plasma user can cook electrodes and nozzles at an alarming rate.An air dryer, if your going to use a compressor for your air source, is an absolute must, IMO. It will pay for itself in saved electrodes very quickly.Good luck, let us know what you choose.MetalBob
Reply:You say that if Im using a compressor for the air supply...are people using tanks? Between the two is there a real difference in consumables ($/quality-wise)?ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:Here is my opinion for whats its worth. Hyper-therm and thermal-dynamics are the two best choices. Their are other plasma cutters out their that work good and their owners are happy with them, but I still believe that the two masters of plasma are the ones to get. Their whole research and development is totally dedicated to the plasma cutter ability and nothing else. after trying out two plasma cutters I went with the thermal-dynamics cutmaster 38 over the hyper-therm 380. I did this for to three reasons1. the cutmaster 38 had a little higher cutting capacity. not a big difference but some2. consumables are half the price over the hyper-therm3. according to the main repair shop for eastern Canada the thermodynamics have less repairs than the hyper-therm. Not allot of difference here but was the clincher for me.I have worked with both a few times and love the cutmaster 38 and hyper-therm 380. Wish I had have gone possibly a little bigger but thats an old story heard daily . The one thing that might make the difference for you is which dealer is better and closer. Also remember one very important thing. all brands have a luck factor. You will not know where your luck is until you start trying one. buying a good proven brand at least lessons the chance of buying a lemon. Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:i have the hypertherm power max 30 the new one works GREAT !!!!!!
Reply:I am a loyal Lincoln guy, I intended to buy the Linclon Procut 80 last month, but, I just bought a Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101 with an SL100 handtorch. If you look at heavy duty shops, which I have a lot of interaction with, they are not using the Lincolns and Millers. They are using Hypertherm and Thermal Dynamics. Reliability and Quality.Now, I am not a heavy duty shop or anything, but I know that sometimes you gotta look past the Red and Blue and see what it is you are looking for.In terms of consumables, the Thermal Dynamics wins HANDS DOWN BAR NONE. The consumables are the same for the SL60 torch and the SL100 torch. That covers ALL the amperage ranges you want to use. So no matter what dealer you go to they have the parts you want FOR BOTH GUNS!I am using quite the accessories to ensure quality air to my plasma as well. I have an air chiller, a water separator, a dessicant tank and a filter all before the inline filter/regulator that comes mounted on the unit. Hopefully that will cut down on consumables lost to moisture. Not sure it is cheaper than replacing the consumables, but it is less irritating.So, as far as 110/220, I missed the mark, but for brand of choice I hope I nailed it for you.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:Originally Posted by out in the shopi am pretty sure hypertherm makes some or most of millers machines
Reply:Along that train of thought....someone told me that my Craftsman roller toolbox was made by someone else. I never really cared to find out. But I was moving the dang thing from Denver to Yuma and found stamped in the backside the name "Waterloo". Those waterloos are expensive! So I feel good about the purchase! Now, can we flip a Hypertherm over and finda Miller logo somewhere?????Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:Yeah, I hear you there. So long as its durable, reliable, and gets it done.Pondering...Im still sitting with a fence post up my bu--. Called Miller and Thermal Dynamics today to get some ideas from the perspective techs.For me the Miller has just that "it" factor, and it matches my box so that Im not gonna be getting a fashion citation. The duty cycle drops considerably though with 110 usage, but It'd probably be 220 for 99% of its life anyhow. I unfortunately didnt get an idea on the consumables cost, and dont know if this torch is widely used/available. I also dont know whether the storage box is worth it or not, and cannot find any photos of the interior.The Cutmaster 38 has a great deal going on right now with a free Victor torch/regulators due to the 50th Anniversary. 35% duty cycle regardless of 110/220. Takes less air to operate, and 10% higher output. Consumables seemed very reasonable (if not cheap). Is this a good torch they're using? How long has this been out? Is it really as good a record as people say it is?While Im not expecting to sell it once Ive got it I know that the Miller would probably get a better resale value. The Miller customer service too adds into the factor as being strictly unbelievable for this day and age. Took me over 30 minutes to talk to HT tech today. Miller took about 2 minutes if that.My intended usage is as a hobbiest with some private fab work etc...Im certain I wont be hitting 0.5" anytime soon, but am very intertested in stainless and aluminum. Im in this for my truck and metal arts. Its also unfortunate that I just bought a Smith MD OA kit still untouched. Already got a 6cfm@90 compressor. The Mrs REALLY doesnt like the idea of O/A in the garage for some reason... Is there anything else I need to think about regarding plasmas? Would one have more parts/consumables availability? Is one going to cut more precisely than the other or do I just need to flip a coin?Sorry for all the Q's!Last edited by DirtyLittleSecret; 03-07-2007 at 09:10 PM.ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:The Cutmaster 38 has a great torch.I would worry more about how the little 30 amp machines are designed then anything. One big board is the norm, and the Cutmaster one is about $900.00 It does not have as good as warranty as their other machines, something like 1 year parts and three years labor. I have to double check the facts but it's something like that. It's good the torch is nice because when the machine goes T*T'S up, it's the only thing worth saving. I own a 151 cutmaster and a 38XL with a upgraded SL-60 one torch, and their nicemachines.
Reply:Is there a reason to be worried about the "little 30A machines"? What do you mean by one big board (ie: circuit)? The warranties are both 3 yr power supply, and 1 year on the torches (same warranty on all the respective plasma cutters from either).ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:Originally Posted by DirtyLittleSecretIs there a reason to be worried about the "little 30A machines"? What do you mean by one big board (ie: circuit)? The warranties are both 3 yr power supply, and 1 year on the torches (same warranty on all the respective plasma cutters from either).
Reply:Link for cuting capacity and other usefull info.http://www.plasmacam.com/archive/plcut.htm
Reply:Originally Posted by Brand XThe warranty is not three years parts and labor on the Cutmaster 38. One of them is three years, but not both parts and labor. I think parts are three years. My machines 151 cutmaster has the three years parts and labor. I can get you the the e-mail address on the regional rep for Thermal if you would like it from the horses mouth.
Reply:Originally Posted by DirtyLittleSecretHate to disagree with you, but on the Miller site it shows the 3 year warranty parts/labor for the box, and one year on the torch. Hence the TrueBlue Warranty (ie:http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/warranty.pdf).For the Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster series (all Cutmasters) it states 3 years parts and labor with one year on the torch. Says it on the site in plain print under warranty.ie:http://www.thermadyne.com/conWarranty.asp?div=tdcI would also imagine that pretty much ANY plasma cutter out there will be a circuit board (as almost all are inverters anyhow). Even yours has a board that could fail. Just dont see how that would make any difference in premature failure for the smaller 30A units vs 50A units. I'll be going down to Joel at the 82nd Airgas for other ideas. Seriously, thanks for trying to help me out!Thanks for the link Dipper, but unfortunately there are some wrong numbers on that link making me wonder who produced it. Still, its a good reference but not accurate for discerning between these two units.Not trying to shoot anyone down, but am looking for beta to make my decision an educated one.
Reply:here DLS this is my last imput. I am a die hard miller guy. Have run some good lincolns. I do allot of research before buying anything expensive and go for the best choices. I even tried the plasmas out to see how they worked. I bought the thermodynamics plasma cutter like allot of good advice has been posted above. If you are looking for someone to talk you into buying the one you want, I can't see that happening here. At some point you will need to decide which one you want. Make a choice and go for it. Good luck on your purchaseMiller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:I know that you fellas like your own products, but have you heard of a Fronius Plasma, very well known in Europe. This plasma cutter requires neither gas or compressed air-ideal for site work. the following is a cut and paste from their US site.TransCut 300 - creative solution using fluid instead of gasFluid, not gas, is the starting medium for the new plasma cutting process from Fronius. Having to have a compressedair supply is now a thing of the past.The result is a compact unit that is ideal for on-site and fi eld use: The TransCut 300. The advantage of this new system is unlimited portability, as well as greatly reduced emissions of noxious substances. What is more, the plasma cutting system has very low noise emission levels, which makes life a lot more pleasant for the operator.The TransCut 300 ushers in a whole change of direction in the fi eld of cutting-technology: It is the smallest and weighing less than 14 kg the lightest plasma cutting system in its class. The cutting system is generator-compatible, needs only a 230 V mains connection and cuts steel, aluminium and chromiumnickel up to a thickness of 12 mm. The cut surfaces are oxide-free, so there is no need for the subsequent machining that would otherwise be required. Because the process prevents nitrogen pick-up on the cut surfaces, there is much less risk of pore formation during subsequent welding work. Last but not least, the higher cutting speed makes for greater efficiency.I have no idea of what it costs.My only connection with Fronius is that I own a Fronius Magicwave 1700 AC/DC stick tig and its first class.I am kicking myself I did not get the bigger 2200.GrahameLast edited by Grahame; 03-08-2007 at 06:47 AM.
Reply:I was curious about the Fronius Transcut--I e-mailed their USA distributor who indicated: "We have imported some units for market evaluation through demonstrations but are not currently selling the unit."For the time, I will stick to my Cutmaster 38, until they come up with a more powerful machine (as if it would be affordable).The fluid is simply pure water with a little ethanol to act as an antifreeze.Here are some links to their website and the MSDS of the fluid, which is vaporized in the torch handle to start the plasma. Verrry cleverrr.http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xchg/...2_ENG_HTML.htmhttp://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xchg/...3_ENG_HTML.htmhttp://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xbcr/...tLiquid_en.pdf
Reply:Originally Posted by sail2uFor the time, I will stick to my Cutmaster 38, until they come up with a more powerful machine
Reply:Simple, yet innovative. Did they say anything about consumable availability? Seems like a VERY sensible way of doing it.ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:The PowerMax 30 is the new model replacing the 380. It shares a common power supply with the Miller Extreme, but with new Hypertherm torch.I just picked up the first one that the local dealer got in (paid about $1200 for the deluxe kit w/case, etc). I'm really impressed with it. Unit weighs on 18 lbs, puts out 30 amps cutting power. While I've only had the opportunity to do a minimal amount of experimenting with it so far, I found it almost foolproof to set up and operate. Just plug in, attach air supply, and cut! Cut is a very fine kerf. I haven't cut anything thicker than 3/16" so far, but it went through that like hot butter. Unit is 110/220 capable, with automatic sensing, so no switch to through. Only challenge I had was with the plug...comes with a 220v/20 amp plug, and needless to say, my workshop didn't have a compatible outlet. I had to build an adapter cord to plug into my 220v/50amp outlet...minor issue, but annoying.I'll provide another update after I've had more time to play!!!
Reply:I have the Lincoln 25, and it is a good unit. It cuts clean and fast enough. With 110v, they all cut a bit slower. And the consumables aren't much of an issue, as they don't wear out very fast unless you have some really dirty air supply and/ or really nasty rusty/ oily metal. |
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