Long tractor with cracked block

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Help castweld or anyone with input. Stopped by a friends farm tonight. He's rebuilding a 60 HP Long tractor that went though a flood. They had it split and managed to have it turning again. Unfortunately my eye caught what looked like a crack... a quick pass with the wire wheel revealed a crack about 4 inches long and clearly into the water jacket. Any recommendation for repair?I felt like the grim reaper tonight  Attached ImagesLast edited by forhire; 01-07-2012 at 01:06 AM.
Reply:looks like a problem...Quality is our policy.
Reply:Originally Posted by eagleman193looks like a problem...
Reply:I fixed a Pontiac 400 cu.in. block with a similar crack between the water jackets. Didnt have money then to replace the block so I had to try and fix it. I used rods for cast iron, pre heated the area with a torch and welded it up. Prior to welding it I cleaned it very good and took a die grinder and V-ed out the crack. After welding it I used an epoxy coating over it for a little extra insurance. It worked, never leaked again. We found the crack after we tanked the block. The guy cleaning it said you could see where it had been leaking a little. When you are 19 years old and making $100-$150 a week you do what you have to if you want to play.
Reply:I used to weld up water pressure pumps that had cracked in freezing weather.  I ground V's in the cracks, didn't even bother drilling at the end of the crack since they weren't caused by stress, and brazed them with regular brass rod and borax powdered flux.  I still have some of the pumps (20 years later).  I think it would probably work on the tractor in a water jacket area.  I would not recommend brazing cast iron bits like exhaust manifolds....too much heat and flexing.Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:I agree with the brazing solution,,,just clean the area real good and the brass will hold up fine
Reply:X3 for brazing. I have been using MG 240 flux with great results. Got it from Airgas.
Reply:I would vee it with a carbide burr and backstop weld it cold one inch at a time. Drill the ends first, epoxy when done.  Ni  99 or 55.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:A crack in the water jacket on my old tractor was brazed over 30 years ago and has never leaked since. I'd go with brazing.
Reply:Plus 2 ^^  on David R's advice forehire. Unless it doesn't want to stick (happens with ni-rod sometimes).Good LuckMatt
Reply:X3 with David and Matt. I don't know what's behind that but from what little I see in the picture I'm afraid that it might be to large a flat surface for brazing. To big a chance of it cracking somewhere else when it cools down unless you can bring the whole casting up to temp and that's a huge job on a tractor engine.   I prefer brazing for nearly all cast repairs myself but this is one where I'd break out the nickle rod.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:It sounds like brazing it might be out of the question. I'll measure the block and see if I can get it into my oven in the shop... I suspect it's too long. My preference would be to tig it. Am I asking for trouble? I can lay down nickle rod it that's better. If I use David's method would I peen the weld while cooling?Last edited by forhire; 01-07-2012 at 12:13 PM.
Reply:I've not done any real tig of cast so I'm not the one to answer that part. But definitely peen it as it cools.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:YES. Peen it as it cools.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by irish fixitI've not done any real tig of cast so I'm not the one to answer that part. But definitely peen it as it cools.
Reply:Lock-N-Stitch it
Reply:is it cast iron? or cast steel?I have used 309 on cast steel blocks with very good sucess.
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500Lock-N-Stitch it
Reply:Best choice would be braze but...I wouldn't braze it unless it would be stripped bare- even cam bearings, galley plugs, freeze plugs, ect. Tractor blocks are quite a bit thicker than auto so I usually heat to 900 degrees or so, braze hot, post heat and slow cool. That long flat side of block will cack all over if you try to short cut the process. This is NOT like welding on a end, corner or such area of that block.I'd pin it...If you are good at drilling and tapping leak free holes Lock-n Stitch can be done, or any other pin type repair. I would go that route because I already have a large stock of pins and locks along with the required tooling. The tooling would be kinda high to purchase for a single repair, but still cheaper than replacing, or disassembling that block for oven welding.If I could not pin it but needed to repair it on the "cheap"...Cold weld with ni rod as suggested above. Locate ends of crack and drill just past that point. Start at one end and I usually weld about 1/2 inch, peen the crap out of it, when you can hold hand comfortably on welded area it is cool enough to weld again. Repeat this untill you are to mid point of crack then start on other end and make welds meet in middle. Epoxy over area and use stop leak to seal up leakers.Now all you have to do is pick a method and have fun.PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:By the way- thats an ice crack.PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:Originally Posted by astaindsoul5446is it cast iron? or cast steel?I have used 309 on cast steel blocks with very good success.
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldNow all you have to do is pick a method and have fun.
Reply:I have used silicone bronze rod and tig to repair a lot of cast iron parts. Some guys around here call it ever-do or something like that.Same basics apply: clean, v out, clean, clean again, preheat, weld, cool slowly.
Reply:My old man used to sell Long tractors at his dealership, I've seen and welded a lot of cracks on them, I've always used NOMACAST stick rod from forney. Its always worked for me.Miller Dialarc 250'61 Lincoln SA 200 Red/Blue FaceHobart Handler 175Smith O/AIf you cant dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with B.S.!
Reply:It's right in the middle of the block.  That is the worst place to attempt a hot repair.  I would start with a dye penetrant test to find the extent of the cracking and (while I have never used them personally) use stitching pins or some other type of cold repair.Originally Posted by forhireI've heard good things about this process (snip)I'm not clear how the stitch pins are spot faced.
Reply:+1 on the PT test, its a good idea
Reply:Wow Matt that's a heck of a story.   I've looked at Lock&Stitch before but never got around to doing more. After looking at the web site some more and hearing your story I think I need to look harder. I turned down welding on a Cummins block not to long back because I knew it wouldn't work. Looks like they do them all the time. I can think of several times where that would of been a much better method than what I was forced to do.  Yeah those old Cinci's could really move some metal. Ran a #3 at my former employers quite a bit. I bought it at the auction but didn't have room for it and the Abene is more versatile. Sometimes wish I hadn't sold it but didn't need it sitting in storage but did need the money when starting back up.Last edited by irish fixit; 01-08-2012 at 12:39 PM.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireThanks Peter. The block is being taken all the way down, including new sleeves as one is heavily pitted. With that in mind what would be your choice? I don't have a stitch set so weld or braze?Exactly. It was in a flood and then left over the winter. It's amazing not in as bad of shape as one would expect after sitting under 15' of water.
Reply:Agree on the peening, also v-ing it out before welding. PT is a good idea, would check the whole block visually good to make sure this is the only spot. I would weld it. PT it again after it cools.Miller Bobcat 225Miller Diversion 180 - sold searching for a DynastyHobart TigmateMillermatic Challenger 172
Reply:I've been looking at the lock and stitch method more. I stumbled across this video that shows the process and cleared up a lot of questions I had.I'm kinda thinking the lock and stitch may be the ticket on this repair. I'm going to call them tomorrow and see how much the tools are. But I'm still exploring my options. The Nomacast looks good. All the nickel rods require preheating (according to the instructions). Anyone have experience with Crown Alloy "Crown 255"?http://www.crownalloys.com/TechSheet...ew_Warning.pdfLast edited by forhire; 01-10-2012 at 01:38 AM.Reason: added crown 255 url
Reply:Called locknstitch this morning. Sounds like I can get enough supplies to to repair the crack for around $135. I need to measure the material thickness so I'm headed to the farm to drill a small hole.
Reply:Keep us posted. Locknstitch sounds like an interesting tool to add to my collection if and or when the need arises..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:$135 isn't bad.  I figured the tap and drill would be around $60 plus $2-3 per pin.  Check into a dye penetrant kit to determine the extent of the cracks as well.  That is the most cost effective crack detection method for the consumer.
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500$135 isn't bad.  I figured the tap and drill would be around $60 plus $2-3 per pin.  Check into a dye penetrant kit to determine the extent of the cracks as well.  That is the most cost effective crack detection method for the consumer.
Reply:right.Die penatrant will work on steel, but it is not as sure as magnaflux.When you magnaflux around all those studs just knocked into the block you will find out there is more of a crack there than before. Just like welding you need to sure of the material compatibility, how it is going to react to temperature changes etc... I don't see that the threaded pins are going to be a long term repair.Last edited by riceburner; 01-11-2012 at 12:32 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireI called about the kit but the guy said for my repair I could piece it together and save a little. Does a dye penetrant like spotcheck work with cast iron? I know it works well with smooth surfaces.
Reply:Originally Posted by riceburnerright.Die penatrant will work on steel, but it is not as sure as magnaflux.When you magnaflux around all those studs just knocked into the block you will find out there is more of a crack there than before. Just like welding you need to sure of the material compatibility, how it is going to react to temperature changes etc... I don't see that the threaded pins are going to be a long term repair.
Reply:When I was in welding class (1978), My instructor told us to soak the block with Kerosene.     Wipe it off and clean the block so its dry then cover the crack and beyond with chalk (white powder?).  Tap with hammer.   The chalk will show the extent of the crack.  I have done it and it works.DavisReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I vote for Lock n stitch, widely used in large industrial equipment (in our case, engines). Go to Reynolds-French of Tulsa web site for some interesting examples of large engine wrecks they have fixed.For a Long tractor engine block, though, and since you are completely dismantling it anyway, what would a good used salvage block cost?For engine coolant jackets only, which are not structural, Ford for one have in the past officially recommended repairs with epoxy putty. Drill the ends of the crack, vee it out a little and putty it. All you're doing is holding the coolant in, after all. Better be certain that is the only damage, if water froze in the block it could well be damaged more than you realize.Good luck (mostly we make our own luck).
Reply:This may sound cheap or even a little cheesy but when I used to work on boats we used JB weld for this all the time.  You run into frozen cracked blocks all the time in the boat industry where it freezes.  We actually used a product called Marine-Tex.  It is very similar to JB weld (2 part epoxy).  You can dab it with a shop rag before it sets up and it kinda gives it a "cast" look that blends well once painted.  I know that some people think this is a chinsy repair method.  Just a thought.
Reply:I'd settle for the brazing repair.  I have fixed them myself this way.  I have worked on and rebuilt several tractor engines that were fixed this way, and it is more than sufficient.  Unless the crack is at a mounting point or there is a heavy loader attached to the tractor, it shouldn't be an issue. Which Long is it?  Is it the Romanian "UTB"?Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:After watching that youtube video, I vote for the locknstitch method. I'm going to have to add that to my little bag of tricks.
Reply:Have used this system works well.V
Reply:I know it's been forever. Figured I better post an update. The tractor is working great. Not sure how many hours on the rebuild but going strong. Used the lock and stitch method. No leaks.  Thanks again to everyone for their experience and recommendations. Attached is the photo. Enjoy. Attached ImagesLast edited by forhire; 06-19-2013 at 02:18 PM.
Reply:That screw gimic is the most assed out thing I've ever seen.The glue is basically holding the crack in place.  I'll stick to welding or brazing cast.Buy American, or don't whine when you end up on the bread line.
Reply:I saw a video of an arc weld job on an engine block.They deliberately did not pre heat the thing.  It was a lesson not an attempt to repair.The welded area  literally popped away cracking the block ruining it completely.The explanation was that Cast iron cooling in the area of the weld  changes shape dramatically such that the surrounding iron can't keep up, and she just breaks apart.Hey~!! It's a hobby. It's not supposed to make sense~!!
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireI've been looking at the lock and stitch method more. I stumbled across this video that shows the process and cleared up Anyone have experience with Crown Alloy "Crown 255"?http://www.crownalloys.com/TechSheet...ew_Warning.pdf
Reply:http://muggyweld.com/cast-iron-repair/Anyone ever try products from theese guys? Was kinda intrigued with their cast fillers.Nice job on the repair by the way. I know they have been using that method a lot on the cummins #53 blocks that are cracking.
Reply:Originally Posted by sbchp355http://muggyweld.com/cast-iron-repair/Anyone ever try products from these guys? Was kinda intrigued with their cast fillers.