2" sched 80 tig root help please 6G

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I am having a hard time not dipping my tungsten on the bottom of the pipe. I am not sure what I am doing wrong I am trying to walk the cup. I dip, or i feel like I can't move my cup forward and the puddle falls out. I have gone through about 4 coupons and I am getting extremely angry and making no progress. This is on the bottom half of the pipe.110 amps er70s-2 DCENRed tungsten37 1/2 degree bevelI never had this problem when running open root on plate.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Silly question, but:Have you tried walking the cup on the lower half with the machine off, just to get used to how it should 'feel' going the proper speed down there, maintaining forward movement?Hobart Beta-Mig 2511972 Miller AEAD-200LEMiller 250 TwinNorthern Ind. Hybrid 200Longevity Stick 140Longevity Migweld 200SThermal Arc Pak 3XR
Reply:Simple solution free hand the root.  Walking the cup can lead to issues on the root if the cup gets stuck, wont move etc.  Just free hand it.  You wont always be able to cup walk the root anyways.  Been on pipe jobs where you had no choice but to free hand due to pipe placement etc.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:I can do it fine with the machine off. But when I light up its so different. I can't find anyway to hold steady when freehanding.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:110 amps is too much current for a root if you are moving slow.
Reply:Prop a finger on the pipe to hold steady.  Like it or not you will not always be able to walk the cup due to other objects.  Don't let cup walking become a crutch,  it will come back to bite you when you have an object in the way.   Get a tig finger if you need too...Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:I've always free handed the roots on 2" and smaller for tests and x-Ray, at least the bottom of the 2" anyways........  I found that if I walked the cup on my 2" tests, I'd get suck back on the bottom of my root.  When free handing I would make sure the tungsten is 90 degrees to the pipe......that would help to push the root through and not get any suck back......just my 2 cents......
Reply:How do you guys make sure you stay consistent 90 to the pipe. I find that when I do it I don't change my angle  fast enough and it causes problems.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Its hard to describe how I do it.  I will roll my wrist.  What I mean by this is I will have the palm of my hand rolled in towards my wrist while holding the tig torch and as I come up around the pipe I will un roll my wrist.  Keeping the tungsten as straight in as I can.   On larger than 2 inch pipe I will use my shoulder too.  But for 2 inch I just use my wrist and elbow joints.  My advice to you is to do dry runs.   To be honest I would probably practice with bad fit ups once you get it down with a good fit up.  On the test jig is a joke til you get out in the field and you end up with wonky fit ups..ExampleThe other day a weld got cut out at work 6 inch sch 40, day shift did the cutting and beveling,  my poor fitter was stuck fitting their mess back up that night.  He gets it as best as he could.  I am left with a quarter inch gap on one side and 3/32" on the other.  He couldn't close the gap for me because it would have put valves out of level that were already welded.  So I had what I had.  He looked at me and asked what I thought and I said I could handle it.  He went to grab a propane bottle and tiger toch to warm up the hoarding we were in.  By the time he got back a few min later the root was in.  Not bragging just giving you the realities of pipe welding.   To be honest I haven't been pipe welding long, these are just observations from a few of the jobs I have been on so far.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:Just keep the torch vertical up and freehand the bottom of the pipe.As you move to the 4-5 o'clock position continue keeping the torch vertical and start walking the cup. This will way you can concentrate on keeping the torch in the vertical up position irrespective of where you are on the pipe, by the time you reach the spot where you start walking the cup the torch angle will have the proper angle relevant to the pipe.That or just freehand the whole root, 2" is my limit where I prefer to freehand instead of walking the cup.
Reply:Originally Posted by smilexelectricI can do it fine with the machine off. But when I light up its so different. I can't find anyway to hold steady when freehanding.
Reply:I havnt read the other replies, so it may have been mentioned, but 110 amps is very hot for a 2" pipe, id start at around 80, and work up from there, also for a 2" i would free hand the root rather then walk it.Sent from my LG-P716 using Tapatalk
Reply:Totally missed that.  110 is fine if your pressure feeding and experienced.  I widen the gap and back feed at 80 or so amps. For the bottom.Long after the price is forgotten, the quality will remain.Both of my Poppy's 1954 Short Hoods -Third generation to weld with it and teaching a fourthSA 2## - Bought and sold more than I can remember or care to list, 8 in the shop right now
Reply:So I just did the rolling wrist technique on the bottom at 100 or 105 amps cant remember, Worked pretty freakin good. No tungsten dips at least. You could tell i was shaky, and I had no reinforcement on the inside, slight suck back. But I can fix that once I get used to this and get comfortable with moving faster. Top portion was easy I walked that. Now the right side was awful, I am learning to use my left hand. I think it is all practice and getting comfortable. Oh and the reason I use higher amps is cause I am using 1/8" wire and 1/8" gap.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Drop the amps and move a little slower, push the wire into the front of the puddle, can you float the wire in the gap or does it lay on the bevelLong after the price is forgotten, the quality will remain.Both of my Poppy's 1954 Short Hoods -Third generation to weld with it and teaching a fourthSA 2## - Bought and sold more than I can remember or care to list, 8 in the shop right now
Reply:Ok   that's good you are getting somewhere.  Its good to see you use your left hand.  The last apprentice that worked under me,  we were welding tubing at the local brewery.  I made him weld the tubing with both hands one side left handed the other right.  It was great practice for him because food grade tubing is only fused..  As I said to him "you will not always be able to use your right hand".I'm going to guess you are using a laywire technique ?  Everything below is based on laywireNow on to the no reinforcement.  Can be caused by a few things.  Too much of a weave on the bottom over your filler wire will give you suck back.  Sucks filler away from the root and deposits it on the bevel,  the filler metal follows the arc...  You can do a couple of things here.  drop your heat a little to 90,  move faster.You could also use a different technique keep your torch centered over the filler wire and step forewards and back while keeping pressure on the rod.  When I do this I hold so much pressure I can feel a 1/8 rod "flex" a little.   For this technique I would still probably drop the heat a little especially if you find it wants to keyhole a lot on you.  If it does keyhole just shove the rod back in an keep moving as above.Weldingtipsandtricks on you tube has a good video on rooting like this.  I do not use this technique due to bad fit ups in the field,  I usually back feed.  But this technique will produce a solid root !Last edited by Newfie_1986; 11-23-2014 at 02:39 PM.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:Originally Posted by Newfie_1986Ok   that's good you are getting somewhere.  Its good to see you use your left hand.  The last apprentice that worked under me,  we were welding tubing at the local brewery.  I made him weld the tubing with both hands one side left handed the other right.  It was great practice for him because food grade tubing is only fused..  As I said to him "you will not always be able to use your right hand".I'm going to guess you are using a laywire technique ?  Everything below is based on laywireNow on to the no reinforcement.  Can be caused by a few things.  Too much of a weave on the bottom over your filler wire will give you suck back.  Sucks filler away from the root and deposits it on the bevel,  the filler metal follows the arc...  You can do a couple of things here.  drop your heat a little to 90,  move faster.You could also use a different technique keep your torch centered over the filler wire and step forewards and back while keeping pressure on the rod.  When I do this I hold so much pressure I can feel a 1/8 rod "flex" a little.   For this technique I would still probably drop the heat a little especially if you find it wants to keyhole a lot on you.  If it does keyhole just shove the rod back in an keep moving as above.Weldingtipsandtricks on you tube has a good video on rooting like this.  I do not use this technique due to bad fit ups in the field,  I usually back feed.  But this technique will produce a solid root !
Reply:My preferred pipe fit-up would be similar or a little wider gap than your pic.  90-95 amps.  Concentrate arc only on filler.  For the direct overhead, feed at a ratio of about 3 inches rod to one inch travel.  Expect a convex exterior.  I've always found (in the overhead) if you wash it flat on the outside, it will flatten or suck back on the inside.  Not the prettiest example but the pics show a 5g overhead with the cut away view.  Touch-up the bottom with a disk and it would be ready for hot pass. Attached ImagesLast edited by OldSparks; 11-23-2014 at 05:35 PM.
Reply:Gah this is getting frustrating. I tried 4 times to get it to reinforce on the inside. I am just doing a quarter bottom left, then rotating the piece to a open bottom quarter. I know i know, this is cheating but if I can figure out this bottom quarter I will be fine for the rest of the root. I can get a good smooth root on the inside on the top left half easily. Still have yet to try and do my left hand on open root. The only thing I have done with my left hand is run freehand beads and walking the cup beads making a pad weld on the pipe.Maybe I am weaving too wide and just dont realize it. It is a little harder to see everything in 6G.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Are you keeping pressure on the rod ?   I do think the forewards and backwards motion would work better.   That side to side weave is going to slow you down.   I would be rotating the pipe too and practicing the bottom only if that's where my problem was.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:I will have to try again tomorrow, right now its raining hard and lightning. I really want to figure this out so I can get a pipe welding job.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:i/ve been practicing for test too, been tigging for a while but was always told it was non-critical so no gap, half bevel, basically garbage welding.im not quite ready to test, but i have found having the gap over the rod a hair and resting the rod on a tack and running it inside the pipe is pretty bullet proof for preventing suck-back. i did have a couple of over-reinforcements early on though. to me, it seems if the rod doesn't fit in the gap, its suck-back citykeep truckin, man, im right there with you just as p.oedbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Nothing wrong with practicing the area that needs work.  When I was jumping up to stainless butts I made a jig that you could twist any position without having to reset the purge.  As for your overhead root.  Experiment with overkill.  Push wire in until the bead is bulging.  Move your arc straight ahead and do it again, then again.  Just plan for a one inch section of heavy root.  Then when you get that down, lighten up to perfect it.Last edited by OldSparks; 11-23-2014 at 08:16 PM.
Reply:Thats actually good advice sparks, does using the keyhole dip technique work too, or will it suck back?Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Originally Posted by smilexelectricThats actually good advice sparks, does using the keyhole dip technique work too, or will it suck back?Dip does work on mild steel too.  You just have to shove more in on the bottom when you dip.  I run a 1/8 gap and 3/32 wire.  I will typically feed from the inside,  if the gap closes I go to dipping and just force rod in there.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:How do you feed from the inside, do you freehand the torch? How do you not dip the tungsten if you cant even see what your torch hand is doing.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:I don't bother with looking through the gap like you see fieldres do on youtube.  I have a gap wide enough I can fit a 3/32 wire inside and just feed wire into the puddle from inside the pipe  (I do not feed down through the top). I look and feed wire from the same direction as if I was doing laywire its just the wire is inside the pipe rather than laid against the bevels.  If I keep my head at the right angle I can watch build up inside the pipe. I just feed as the puddle requires, and weave back and forth from bevel tip to bevel tip.  The more you feed the more buildup you get inside...Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:Okay, I tried again this morning. I used the forward back, no side to side. Tried at 90 amps still suck back, so I went and tried keyhole dip, man that sucked so bad I will never try it again. So then I tried the forward back again and bumped the amps to 100 so I could shove more rod in. And it worked! Its finally poking through not a lot but perfect just slightly above flush the way I like it. The only thing is on the bevel side of things its kind of humped, and looks cold like it didn't fuse. Ill show you a picture it was only like an inch of weld. Beware its ugly.I also have other questions, I am having a hard time getting a good reinforcement when coming up on a tack, it doesn't fuse right. What do I have to do to get the stupid tack to fuse and have a good reinforcement on the inside? Do you add rod when running over the tacks? Do you stop at each tack or do you quarter the root pass?Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Grind the end of the tack to a feather edge, go slow coming onto the tack and keep feeding wire in.Sent from my LG-P716 using Tapatalk
Reply:Rather than forward/back, in the overhead I just 'w' the torch from bevel point to bevel point as advancing.  This will help blend the scary cold look appearance.  Remember we're just talking a 3/32" max. movement.  You still want the convex shape exterior.
Reply:Man I suck at pipe welding, I wish I wouldn't of gotten screwed in school. It is so hard to learn without someone right there helping.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:I posted answer on wrong threadLast edited by blackbart; 11-24-2014 at 03:36 PM.Reason: posted on wrong thread, delete if you can
Reply:lol that is great.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Originally Posted by smilexelectricMan I suck at pipe welding, I wish I wouldn't of gotten screwed in school. It is so hard to learn without someone right there helping.
Reply:I am so close to finishing this 2". If I can figure out the bottom part of the root and tieing in my tacks better, I will have it done. Everytime I fill in the root I put my hotpass in and it looks good, no LOF, no dips. Man my progress over the last 2 weeks has been so good.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold