Lift arc vs. pedal/HF TIG on steel

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As you might have seen one one of my other threads, I'm about to upgrade my welder and am considering my options. I wonder if I could pick the brain-trust here on lift arc vs. HF start with pedal TIG. I know from my reading here that one effect of lift is that you lose gas shielding for a moment when breaking the arc. But I'm more looking for input on how essential the ability to change the heat mid-bead is, vs. choosing a heat output with a dial and keeping it constant throughout.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellAs you might have seen one one of my other threads, I'm about to upgrade my welder and am considering my options. I wonder if I could pick the brain-trust here on lift arc vs. HF start with pedal TIG. I know from my reading here that one effect of lift is that you lose gas shielding for a moment when breaking the arc. But I'm more looking for input on how essential the ability to change the heat mid-bead is, vs. choosing a heat output with a dial and keeping it constant throughout.
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarSo tell us.....exactly what will you be welding and in what "scenarios" will this welding take place?
Reply:They will all get you from here to there. Xray welds are made every day with scratch start Tig rigs. But lets put it this way. A Tig machine with high freq start and a foot pedal is like a Lincoln Continental with automatic transmission. Lift arc is like a pickup with a 4-speed on the floor. A scratch start Tig rig, is like a 3-speed on the column! Now which one do you really want to drive? Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I would rather do pipe with a scratch start rig than try to balance on a foot pedal or have a finger remote in the way. But that is just me and every other guy that TIG's pipe. I love the hi freq and a pedal when I am sitting at the bench doing stuff.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:I think I see where this is going ;-)
Reply:I wouldn't want to be without the control of the pedal.Also, lift-arc has a "stickyness" to it, at least every time I've used it. When you touch the tungsten to the work, it's almost as if it's stuck to the work by a strong magnet, and you really have to PULL/YANK to separate the tungsten from the workpiece and start the arc. Sometimes you have to pull so hard that when it finally breaks free, your arm yanks the torch too far away from the workpiece and the arc starts and then immediately extinguishes because the arc length got too long. One workaround is to use the rim of the ceramic gas cup as a "fulcrum" to "lever" the tungsten away from the workpiece ... but if you're trying to TIG small nuts to another piece of metal, lift arc will be problematic unless the nuts are clamped in place pretty darn firmly.I can see where lift arc would be convenient for pipe welding, but even then, it seems to me that having the "throttle" of a pedal would only be a plus, and very rarely a minus. As I said, I wouldn't want to not have at least the option of using a pedal or handwheel amperage control...
Reply:Originally Posted by TozziWeldingtry to balance on a foot pedal
Reply:Keep in mind most machines designed to use a pedal can be run without it if you choose to do so. The problem with breaking the arc can be solved by using the pedal/remote as an on/off vs using it for amp control. Different machines are set up differently, so we'd need to know some specifics to give more info.As far as you comments on why you would like a tig machine, several of the reasons involve outside use. Unless it's dead calm out, you will need to rig a wind screen to use tig out doors, and even then, don't expect to be able to use it all the time if it's really windy. Tig also doesn't tolerate a dirty/rusty surface at all. You will have to have your pieces really clean to tack them up with tig. Some of your suggested uses are more in line with a mig than a tig machine, but I can understand it being nice to just have one machine that you can use both for tig and stick. A tempting reason for one of the new multi purpose machines that run mig, tig and stick....No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:i agree with dsw... small 110 mig machines are cheap, and seem to be perfect for your intended uses. what kind of stick welder do you have? you can hook up a tig rig to a DC stick welder and do scratch start. That is how I learned at school. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPKstOZSZug[/ame][ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBiSFjGDApI[/ame]
Reply:I don't think there is one right answer for this question. At the bench you wouldn't be able to get the foot pedal away from me. Out in the field most of the time you would be able to give me a pedal. In the field its either lift arc or scratch start, or occasionally a finger control. Different choices are better in different circumstances.
Reply:I will see if someone will take a video on me doing a scratch start TIG pipe weld at Zap's class.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Kelvin- It sounds like you are talking about scratch start. I have a bunch of lift TIG machines (7 i think?) ranging from new Millers to old Thermal Arcs and on every one of them the start is effortless. joshuabardwell- There is nothing wrong with learning to TIG with a scratch or lift start machine; I learned to TIG on a Miller Thunderbolt when I was just a kid. You use travel speed to dictate heat input/puddle size and there are tricks for breaking the arc and not leaving a crater. If you really want a tig machine look into a Maxstar 150STL or thermal arc 161stl. Both have a gas solenoid, downslope control and are remote capable with downslope and 2T/4T options and have enough juice to handle most projects. I have 2 150stls and they are awesome. They get carted around in the back of work vans back and forth to jobsites for commercial kitchen installs and for the price I picked em up they have made my money back 20x over again. Great investment. The TA is almost identical and cost quite a bit less. When I DC tig I do use HF but I also only use a homemade momentary switch, no amp control because I have to move a lot and a pedal is a pita move around find a comfortable way to use it and I hate hand amptrols just a personal thing (plus TA wants almost 3 bones for one). I believe I can do this very well because for years I was scratch starting a stick machine. A foot pedal can forgive a lot of sins. When you scratch start its pretty obvious when you aren't doing it right. In my opinion TIG is all about technique and understanding of the process and the material(s) you are welding. If you understand what's happening and why it's happening its much easier to determine what you need to do to improve. Sorry to rambleRgfabLast edited by rgfab242; 03-20-2013 at 08:40 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by rgfab242 A foot pedal can forgive a lot of sins. When you scratch start its pretty obvious when you aren't doing it right. In my opinion TIG is all about technique and understanding of the process and the material(s) you are welding. If you understand what's happening and why it's happening its much easier to determine what you need to do to improve.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThat comment is so key it needs to be repeated. I spend more time with tig students trying to teach them the "what" and "why" more than i do the "how".
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellFor those who suggested MIG: you're 100% right that MIG would be the best thing for the tasks I described. But in order to go to MIG, I'd have to give up stick, because a three-process machine is just out of my budget, and I love stick way too much to do that. I focused on TIG for my "thin-material" needs because it's a CC process like stick, and so it's easy to get both in one machine. Maybe some day I'll get a wire-feed machine, but not today.
Reply:I've had my Everlast PA-200 for 30-months now, and still buzzing along. Paid $315.00 FOB my front porch. So that works out to 10-dollars and 50-cents per month. What does a daily news paper cost? Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPWhat does a daily news paper cost?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIs it really such a good idea to compare your welder to something that is becoming obsolete and that you have to replace all the time because it gets thrown away daily? Sorry I couldn't resist.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellThanks for y'all's feedback. I have finally made up my mind, and am going to get an Everlast PA-160 STH. I was torn between that one, and one of the other stick machines with lift-start, but no HF. I believe that this unit will be more than adequate for my stick needs, and will let me eventually branch out into both lift-start and HF TIG with pedal. I'll bear in mind y'all's comments about the pedal "hiding sins," and make sure to put in practice with lift start before moving on.For those who suggested MIG: you're 100% right that MIG would be the best thing for the tasks I described. But in order to go to MIG, I'd have to give up stick, because a three-process machine is just out of my budget, and I love stick way too much to do that. I focused on TIG for my "thin-material" needs because it's a CC process like stick, and so it's easy to get both in one machine. Maybe some day I'll get a wire-feed machine, but not today.
Reply:I will never ever be without a peddle! IMO the only way to TIG.
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTI will never ever be without a peddle! IMO the only way to TIG.
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255Not to make this an Everlast bashing thread, but try selling a used one and see how long you're holding it.   Of course, that's if it lasts.
Reply:Sounds like you need to stop looking at amazon and start looking at craigslist.
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTSounds like you need to stop looking at amazon and start looking at craigslist.... but look, we're getting off track here, aren't we? My question was about lift vs. HF start, not about what brand of welder would best meet my needs. I really didn't want to get into a vendor discussion, and you'll notice that I have carefully avoided mentioning any specific brand in my previous threads leading up to this purchase. I figured once I had actually settled on a brand, the least I could do was give it a shout-out, especially since they're a sponsor here. Now I kind of wish I hadn't.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellI'm only referring to Amazon pricing because it's considered bad form, or outright prohibited, to discuss actual vendor pricing publicly on forums. And I have shopped CL in my area: a bunch of AC-only tombstones, 80-amp 110v flux-cores, and $2000+ generator welders.
Reply:Looking at that kids weld it was actually not that bad......  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:I personally think you're going to like the machine and am looking forward to seeing some welding.  IMHO and experience, CL is okay if you're in a big city with a lot of industrial.  But if you're where I am, and maybe Knoxville is like this, all I see are used units being sold for basically new retail and half of it is Chicago Electric and Lincoln weldpak type stuff... Life's short.  Get the machine you can afford.  Inverters have been around a while and if you get a lemon, my research (here on WW) is that if they fail, they fail early and in warranty.  What you propose to spend isn't pocket change except for rich lawyers, but it's not going to cause you to go bankrupt if the machine fails and you have warranty trouble.  You're out some dough, but in all likelihood it will work fine and do what you need it to do for a long time.There's something to be said for buying blue or red or yellow or kind of a brick red color (TA), but there's also a lot to be said for feeding kids, keeping gas in the car, and making rent.  If it's a welder for work, go with one of the colors.  If it's fixing the occasional things around the house / ranch or a weekend project, get what fits in your budget.Now, go buy the it!  ps, Jody on Welding Tips did a review of one of their machines if I recall and gave it good marks.  Damn, you're making me rethink my lusting for the TA 211i ...