7018 stick fillet advice and a ?

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Hey,Been a while since I've had a chance to focus on welding (some machine problems and no heat in the garage this winter)But I'm back at it and was hoping to get a critique of how I'm doing on my fillets.First a question, my flux is always fairly stuck to my weld (7018) am I supposed to wait for it to cool before trying to get it off or does it not matter? When you see the pics maybe note what could be a reason for this?Using a Longevity WeldAll 256pi, 3/16" Steel, 3/32" Hobart 7018 rods, DCEP, set at 95-100A (at 90 I could barely get an arc and would keep sticking at the start). I aim the electrode at roughly at 45 into the joint and tilt it back in the direction the weld is going.On to the pics: (sorry if they're huge)Hopefully they're not too horrendous
Reply:On a weld like that, I hold the rod 45 degrees to the the joint then pull my hand down just a wee bit more to deposit a little more metal on the vertical plate. Go slow enough to ensure you fill well and see that the metal flows down on the flat plate. Gravity helps you in this situation. Maintain a consistent travel speed and rod angle across the entire weld. Your weld had variations in these subjects. Your amperage is right in the ballpark for that rod.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:I see what looks like a lot of slag still attached at the toes. Slag tends to stick if you have a lot of undercutting or cold lap and the toes don't wet in nice and smooth. This makes it harder to remove the slag. It also helps slightly if you let the welds cool just a bit and don't start hammering on them while they are still glowing.7018 will self peal if you get your rod angle, arc length, travel speed and amps correct.You might take a look at this thread I did a while back that shows how just changing the arc length can change the bead shape, and how easy or hard it is to remove the slag. Post 3 shows the slag just about ready to self peel. I probably needed to just slightly tweak my settings, but that really wasn't the point to that bead. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=58537I see a lot of newer students who can't maintain a consistent arc length, travel speed, rod angle etc. Consistency in these things is key to getting good welds.Try and work on maintaining everything the same as much as possible. If you are going to "experiment", do what I did in that thread and just try to change only one thing at a time..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Snoepro: thanks for the tips I definitely need to work on consistencyDSW: looking at that topic I'm thinking I am holding the rod too close ill have to try to ensure a 1/8" gap practicing holding it that distance without actually welding as I think I'm just eyeing up the distance wrong. The center part of the slag generally comes off easy but the top and bottom edges alway have slag built up and stuck hardOverall do these look like sound welds or would you say they may be prone to break?
Reply:The beads don't look terrible, but they could use some work.Arc length is dependent on rod size, amperage, travel speed etc.. In that thread I was running 1/8" 7018 at 100 amps, thus I needed to hold that arc length. I picked 100 amps simply because Rick said it couldn't be done at that amperage in another thread. The point was to show that it could be done, and why he was having major issues at the time. At the tech school, we typically have students run 1/8" 7018 at 125-130 amps and usually they can drag the rods on the plate ( this eliminates arc length from the equation and lets them work just on angle and travel speed.) I ran some 1/8" 7018 not that long ago on 1/8" material and jammed the rod in as tight as I could, running at 125 amps ( I didn't have any 3/32" rods with me at the time and the older rods were slightly damp and didn't want to run well at a lower amperage). I could flake the slag off with my fingernail when done. With stick, the closer you hold the rod, the colder the weld will be, the farther away, the hotter the weld will be at the same amperage.My comment wasn't so much on arc length as it was that little changes can make a big difference in a weld. That just happened to be a convenient post I'd done in the past that showed how easy or hard it can be to remove slag, even without changing the machine settings. The fact the slag is tough to remove tells me you aren't quite there yet. Originally Posted by teknics The center part of the slag generally comes off easy but the top and bottom edges alway have slag built up and stuck hard
Reply:I haven't been doing a pattern, just a straight drag. Should I be doing a pattern on a fillet?While watching the weld puddle I see the vertical piece being undercut. Because i see that undercut i feel like i may change my rod angle without noticing to try to stop it from undercutting. I want to say my worst slag is on top of the weld closest to the vertical piece. To get good wet-in would I try to go slower and add in a pattern? Random questions sometimes while welding I can see basically the rod end "drip" off into the puddle like wax burning off, is this a sign of my arc length getting to long? I just sort of notice it randomly. Also towards the end of my weld sometimes it's like the end of the rod is blowing air, the puddle gets hard to see, arc starts losing steadiness and it gets really bright. I'm thinking its me messing up the rod angle as I get towards the end
Reply:By holding your rod 45 degrees to the joint then lowing your hand just a wee bit more you deposit a little more metal on the vertical plate. This helps ensure no undercut on the vertical plate. If your still getting undercut on the top plate, use a shorter arc length. I'll see if I can run a few beads today with 3/32 7018 on some T joints in flat position.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:As far as a pattern or motion, it's what works for you. Personally I like to do a C or Z pattern and wash the puddle up on the upper plate. It doesn't have to be a large motion, just enough to do what I want and make sure I'm filling in the top edge well. With even a tiny motion I can watch each edge individually fill and make sure I'm getting what I want. That said I can also do a straight drag and make it work well also. I have to pay a lot more attention to exactly where my rod is aimed, because I'm filling top and bottom at the same time. It's a lot easier to do this if I have my amps right and I can drag the rod on the plate. I'll try to keep the rod in contact with both pieces at the same time when I do this. Some rods are easier to do a straight drag with than others. 7024 is stupid easy to run this way, 6010 not so much. 7018, depends. Some brands are simpler to run and easier to see than others.The drips you see sounds like the arc length got a bit long compared to what you had been running. It's not uncommon with newer welders who have to shift or adjust their position as some point. This usually means that they stop feeding rod for a moment, and you get a long arc for just a second before you go back to concentrating on what you were doing. The end sounds like you are long arcing a lot possibly. Again it's a question of position. I know some guys have a tendency to roll their hands at the end and the rod gets a lot steeper angle compared to what they have been using.If you run the basic drill I did in that other thread you can see for yourself what things look like at different arc lengths. You can do the same thing with say rod angle in the direction of travel. Run a bead with the rod say 10 deg off vertical, then run one at say 25 deg and finally one at almost 45 deg in the direction of travel. See how the arc and puddle behave. You can also do the same sort of thing up and down as well. Run one bead with the rod aimed right at the middle of the corner at a 45 deg angle. Then run the beads again, aiming at the same point, but with a steeper or shallower angle..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:When you say you keep the rod in contact with both pieces are you say I should keep the rod in the puddle? I've seen others say that before and it confuses me a bit as I don't really let the rod touch anything while running the bead
Reply:With some rods you can literally drag the flux coating right on the material. You'll literally be able to feel it burn away. 7024 is a classic case. 7014, 6013 and some 7018's will function the same way. It's an easy way for new guys to get decent results. You can also hold an arc if you want with many of these as well..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Yea I've tried it based on other people saying its a drag rod but for whatever reason it bothers me doing that, no idea why. Ill give it another shot tho along with trying to watch my angles (at separate times of course) it sounds like its easier. Also might try upping my amps a tad. As soon as I went to 95ish the welds were looking convex, moving to 97-100 flattened it but I'm thinking maybe I'm still right on the edge of the amp range
Reply:First off, lose the small rod.  Step up to 1/8 if your machine will run it.If you're stuck with running the small rod remember to make a small weld in accordance with the rod size.  If you make too wide of a bead you'll run into the so-called undercut issues mentioned above.  (A small bit of undercut is allowable according to AWS standards).  The small rod, due to the low amperage and low deposit rate, is limited to narrow fillets.Move that rod around a little  Don't do a straight, no oscillation, drag!  As your puddle progresses move the rod from toe to toe along the face of the puddle.  This allows you to get some heat, and material, into the toes.  You need to wet those toes in more.  You'll be alternatingly pointing the rod at the vert and horiz surfaces as you progress.To control undercut, WATCH THE PUDDLE AND WELD AREA.  If you have proper amps the steel will get a bite out of it.  You can see it as you weld.  This is a good thing, it's called penetration.  Slow down, AND WATCH YOUR FILLER MATERIAL FILL THE TRENCH YOU'VE CUT IN THE METAL.  The side to side motion I mentioned above does a wonderful job of filling that trench.  And as you can see, a bit of metal is deposited above the undercut and wets in the area nicely.Arc length.  JAMB IT IN THERE   Worst you'll do is hit the plate with the flux coating most of the time, and there shouldn't be too much fear of an arc outage.  That being said..........you're next step is to find the optimal arc length.  Pull back a bit when you notice a weak arc (too close).  Pull back further until you get a slobbery-spray-it-all-over-the-place arc that has no penetration (too far).  The sweet spot midway between these two points will sound sweet and steady, show good penetration, and good deposition.  This is the magical 1/8" or thereabouts.Use the "FORCE"  Don't be afraid to use the arc force to push the filler metal back up into the puddle.  It helps fill undercut, and build a nice uniform bead height wise.  This is especially important when running AC 7018 as in the above photo.DC is much more forgiving when it comes to rod angle, you can use less drag angle because the arc force is steady, not reversing at 60hz.  This photo shows a good lesser angle used for DC rod.Bee Zee PuddleAnd For Gods Sake!!!!  Throw that Hobart rod in the trash, and step up to Excalibur!!"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I run alot of 7018 and always find discussions about its use fascinating!Seems I learn something new or remember something I have forgotten in the past 40 years!
Reply:Here are 3 beads I ran today with 3/32 Liquid Air Blueshield 7018 rod. Right out of the rod oven.T joint, flat position. Lincoln Invertec V350 pro machine. 99 amps. Stick soft mode. Hot start at 5, arc control at -6 (soft). DC+Crummy phone pics.First pass. Rod angle 45 degrees to the joint, then lower my hand a wee bit more. Second pass. Pretty much holding my rod at 45 degrees to the joint. More metal deposited on the flat plate then the vertical plate.Third pass. I held the rod almost 90 degrees to the top plate and used a slight motion to pull the bottom of the bead down to tie it in evenly to the first bead. More metal deposited to the vertical plate. I also used a very short arc length to prevent undercut on the top plate. If you look from the end  at my piece,  i can see all 3 beads making a 45 degree angle between the 2 plate pieces. That makes a good sound weld.Last edited by snoeproe; 04-04-2013 at 11:14 PM.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Farmersamm: wow thanks for all that, very helpful. I was looking for Excalibur rods and discovered I have a local Airgas about 10 mins from me that carries them, so ill definitely be picking some up I have heard they make a huge difference. I do have 1/8" 7018 (still Hobart I think) and my machine should handle it, it's 220V and I think up to 200A for stick maybe 250. What kind of Amp range should I dial them in at?Snoeproe: thanks for going and making those examples, definitely helps to have a visual comparison. You've been very helpful.Last night was a no weld night with the wife but hoping to get some time in tonight, and I have a 2-day weekend coming to burn some rod. Will def keep all this advice and tips in mind and hopefully post some pics of improvement!
Reply:125-130 amps DC+ is usually what we have the students at the tech school set the machines at for 1/8" 7018. Different brands of 7018 run at different amp ranges. 100-150 amps is the rough range I've seen listed for 7018, but I've seen some that suggest as high as 180 amp IIRC.The specific rod does matter. I've seen it at the tech school where with one rod you have no trouble reading the puddle and with the next, it's almost impossible. All depends what some one donated or what was on sale when they had to buy. They often get mixed together when a cans gets low..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Now we've moved on to built up welds I guess. There's two schools of thought on these, and I've argued rigorously with some guys near here about them.For most applications we'll probably ever do, unless working with VERY thich plate, the process is simple.  There's two ways it's usually done.3 pass, or 4 pass.Unless I'm using 5/32 rod I prefer the 4 pass method.  I feel that most 3 pass welds force the welder to stretch the 3rd pass way too far to tie in the weld to the bottom passes.  My feeling is that the heat is too spread out with this method when using smaller rods with limited amperage capacity.Lemme splain........  The first pass is usually nice and tight.  The second pass, unless the welder limits the size, flows out too much on the bottom plate.  So the final pass has to bridge too far to bring the weld to the required 45* angle.  You're moving the rod side-to-side quite a distance which allows some cooling between tie-ins at the toes.  It can be a Catch 22......you need to create a nice 45* angle with the combination of the 3 welds, but there simply isn't enough material in 3 passes to do it without weaving the 3rd pass, or letting it just drizzle down onto the top of the 2nd pass.I think it's doable with larger rod, as here with 5/32 running at about 175amps (this is an AC 7018, DC 7018 would run at about 150amps for the same amount of penetration/fusion/flowout)Typical (mine anyhow) 3 pass weldNotice how the final pass rests exactly on the high part of the second pass.  You can do this by making the second pass as tight as possible without excess flowout.  And the bridge between 2nd pass, and the vertical plate, is closer to a normal bead without being too wide.If I was using 1/8 rod, I'd do a pass against the plate at the root, then do another pass tied to the first pass, then a very nice and tight pass between the 1st, and second pass.  The final pass wouldn't have to be extra large to tie it all together.I have to do some practice tune up welds cause I haven't welded in over a month, and I need to build another cube feeder for the cows, so I'll try to run a 4 pass for illustration when I get to it.  I think you'll see the logic behind it."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Farmersamm: that looks like a great weld. Practicing my fillets, and in the pics above, I have been stacking them just to practice the fillet method. While doing it I always found the same thing as you with the 3rd pass and it wound up making all my layers after that a bit wonky. One of the reasons I've started just doing 3 passes per joint.My main goal is doing fabrication for mostly automotive stuff (not body work, but offroad armor, suspension etc) as well as farm fabrication (one of my upcoming projects is an 8'x8' tine harrow to pull behind some of our tractors (we build/restore '50s ford 8n/jubilee/800/9n tractors for our property outside Binghamton NY). I want to have the ability to do whatever comes up in those situations. After stick I'm learning TIG, but want to get pretty comfortable with stick first.Looks like ill be at Airgas first thing Saturday to buy some Excalibur 1/8 7018. I know a rod oven is preferred, all I have is an airtight (o-ringed) rod tube, is this good enough or still gonna give me problems?Last edited by teknics; 04-05-2013 at 10:36 AM.
Reply:farmersammYour correct with your theories. My second pass was 50% tied in with the first and 50% on the bottom plate. My third pass finished 50% on the top plate and 50% tied in across the first pass which evenly joined it to the second pass. Exactly how your 3 pass diagram shows. The key with how ever many passes you make is you dont want deep valleys in the toes between the passes. You want your toes flat and evenly tied in with each other. If you can do that, thats what matters, which ever way you want to do it.I was taught by a very skilled boiler maker in school. He taught us to do a joint like that in 3 passes.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:On larger material you usually can't get away with 3 beads unless you jump up in rod size. However for 3/8" and less it's certainly very doable with only 3 beads and using 1/8" rods. I don't see the average person needing to weld more than 3/8" regularly.What I find to be the typical issue with students is they run the 2nd bead too far out on the plate. They end up with closer to 1/2" on that leg vs 3/8". That or their motions are too large, which pretty much gives them the same thing. The other thing is their welds are just plain too cold to begin with.The biggest issue I have with going to 4 beads is in general I already find guys beads are too large. Getting them to run small enough beads that are washed in well using 1/8" rods on 3/8" material is tough..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:If i was going to put another layer of weld on top of my first 3 passes on the joint I welded with 3/32 rod, the next layer would be a 4 pass layer on top of my 3 pass layer.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Quick little update. Swapped to 7018 1/8" rods. Running 140A w/ a zigzag pattern while really focusing on rod angle. After a bunch of practice runs to dial it in I got this. Slag is starting to crack off by itself, beginning of the weld almost self peeled (lifted off about .5mm lol) I definitely started putting too much on the horiz. plate again no idea why I keep shying away from the vertical plate but I think the weld is getting better. Still Hobart rods. No real blow out at the end. Used almost the full rod across the 6" seam.So is it better or am I imagining things lolGonna run another bunch of beads now
Reply:Here's another bead I did with a self peeling pic, have a very thin coat of slag on the top of the weld that I have to scrape off as if the slag is dropping and pooling at the bottom of the weld, no idea why that happens
Reply:So did I get worse or something?