Antiquated Measuring Methods For The Shop

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Wasn't really sure where to place this post . . . I imagine someone will move it if its not in the right place.By antiquated I mean old methods of measuring whose beginnings are lost in the past, those that are handed down by word of mouth and those that may not necessarily be valid but we still use them anyway.I only have one that is steel fab related; the working height of a vise.  This one was recounted to me years ago by an old world tradesman.  Considering that people vary in height, the working height for a vise should be individualized to accommodate those differences.First thing, get a helper; this is a two person procedure!Stand upright and look straight ahead. Make a fist with your working hand.Place knuckles of that fist under your chin.Have your helper measure distance from your elbow to the floor.Measured distance is the height to the top of the vise jaws.Is this a valid method?  Who knows!  It seems to work though.Any more out there?PaulMiller Thunderbolt XLPraxair O/AOther stuff
Reply:theres a good joke that involves the correlation between the measurements of a guy's shoulder to finger-tips, and nose to n$ts lol.(works best with a 35' fat-max)measure victim from shoulder to fingertip, lock tape at end of fingers. tell the guy your going to tell him his lifespan or something. turn tape numbers facing down, and have him hold the end of the tape on his nose while you hold the heavy end slightly above parallel to the ground. let go and you will see its pretty dead on.guys who aren't hung-over usually block it, but those not on top of their game are a bit slow. its pretty solid as far as the measurement goes!my old boss once went through with me and showed me all the correlations of measurements of the human body. arms, legs, hight, etc are all related. kind of interesting. also a bit awkward to stand there and measure a guy bosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:That's cruel!
Reply:im going to try the fist to chin thing for a 6g pipe test! looks good from where im standing! would be a lot easier to remember than numbersbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:That's awesome, I knew about using the tape as a wrecking ball to the nads, but I didn't know about the measuring the nose to finger tips part of it.If you measure your arms at full span it should be the same as your height. In my case, my arms are longer than I am tall, im almost 6'1'' and my arm span is 6'4'' I think.Most of the time a persons thumb is 3/4" wide, handy one for carpentry, like when your centering plywood on a stud.Measure your walking stride and remember the measurement, useful for rough estimating.Save the belt clip off a tape measure when you need to throw it away, they're handy to attach to other things like a rod pouch or whatever. Take the clip off the one that goes in your pocket only its way comfier. So lets say you forgot your brain one day, you want to find the center of a piece that is an number you cant divide in 2. Lets say its 5 inches wide. Hold your tape across and keep the dummy end on the piece. move the tape till it reads a number you can divide in half, like 6, mark it in the middle, at 3. Now measure it again like normal, it will be right dead center at 5 1/2"Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:They say, the ideal height for the top of an anvil should be at the same level as the knuckles of a clinched fist. Dan D.Manipulator Of Metal
Reply:Originally Posted by Doug247So lets say you forgot your brain one day, you want to find the center of a piece that is an number you cant divide in 2. Lets say its 5 inches wide. Hold your tape across and keep the dummy end on the piece. move the tape till it reads a number you can divide in half, like 6, mark it in the middle, at 3. Now measure it again like normal, it will be right dead center at 5 1/2"
Reply:http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...hlight=measure...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by Doug247So lets say you forgot your brain one day, you want to find the center of a piece that is an number you cant divide in 2. Lets say its 5 inches wide. Hold your tape across and keep the dummy end on the piece. move the tape till it reads a number you can divide in half, like 6, mark it in the middle, at 3. Now measure it again like normal, it will be right dead center at 5 1/2"
Reply:I think he's saying to move one end of the tape to make a diagonal measurement.  Halfway on the diagonal measurement will match halfway on the straight-across measurement.  You can move diagonal enough to hit some nice round number that's easy to divide.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:I like using a water tube to mesure level instead of a bubble level or a transit.Who knows how old this method is (egyptian pyramids?).  It's stil valid today and can be more accurate than a good transit.  The water tube has the same error no matter how long the tube is.  The error on a transit will grow the farther away from the tranisit you get.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:I'm a freak! Oh no! I checked Zap's measurements 3-13/16 across 4 fingers, pinky to thumb 8-1/2 if I really stretch. Maybe that's why I can't find gloves that fit. My Cubit is 18-1/2", my pace is exactly 3 feet.
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAI like using a water tube to mesure level instead of a bubble level or a transit.Who knows how old this method is (egyptian pyramids?).  It's stil valid today and can be more accurate than a good transit.  The water tube has the same error no matter how long the tube is.  The error on a transit will grow the farther away from the tranisit you get.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BAncient Egyptians were plagued by bad luck ordering clear tubing online. Otherwise the method was as good then as now.
Reply:QUOTE=AndyA;5108321]I think he's saying to move one end of the tape to make a diagonal measurement.  Halfway on the diagonal measurement will match halfway on the straight-across measurement.  You can move diagonal enough to hit some nice round number that's easy to divide.[/QUOTE]Pretty much covers it. Pics for demonstration.[Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Thanks for that.Didn't understand the diagonal bit, explanation above and the pics cleared that up for me.Thx again!
Reply:I thought we going to bash the SAE Standard system. That is rediculous. Fractions are rediculous, I move that we as a trade adopt the metric system.  And change everything about the way we measure pipe so that it kinda makes sense. 1/4" NPT!?? WTF is 1/4" about that?If you want to see some antiquated measuring, go into timber/logging/forestry. You'll be looking through prisms, holding things in your teeth while your arm is out, talking about chains, logs, and chords.Constant Current Weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAThe water tube has the same error no matter how long the tube is.
Reply:Originally Posted by cornemuseHeat from sunlight affects accuracy if a portion of tube gets heated = water expands = lighter = false reading. They are sold with a ~ 2 cup sized container with a tube connecting to the bottom of said container, instructrions state: in sunlite, quick readings & wind up/keep in shade till next use. Otherwise, perfect accuracy.-c-
Reply:Originally Posted by 92dlxmanim going to try the fist to chin thing for a 6g pipe test! looks good from where im standing! would be a lot easier to remember than numbers
Reply:Originally Posted by cornemuseHeat from sunlight affects accuracy if a portion of tube gets heated = water expands = lighter = false reading. They are sold with a ~ 2 cup sized container with a tube connecting to the bottom of said container, instructrions state: in sunlite, quick readings & wind up/keep in shade till next use. Otherwise, perfect accuracy.-c-
Reply:How about the method of drawing circles using two nails and a framing squareOr drawing an ellipse using a ruler.  I think that one goes back to Archimedes.Last edited by AndyA; 12-15-2014 at 09:48 PM.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAHow about the method of drawing circles using two nails and a framing squareOr drawing an ellipse using a ruler.  I think that one goes back to Archimedes.
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAOr drawing an ellipse using a ruler.  I think that one goes back to Archimedes.Originally Posted by AndyAThat is a problem.  You can leave it in the sunlight... if it's *all* in the sunlight.  Just don't have half in the sun and half in the shade.The quick check is to bring the two ends of the tube together.  If the water level matches, you're good to go!
Reply:Lost me! There is no number you can't divide by two! Might take a calculator for those of us who are math challenged, but it can be done. Lol! I am a machinist as well as a welder. I am used to dealing down to .0005 on tolerance. Sometimes .0005 is unacceptable. What number can't you divide by two?Not to give anyone a hard time. just IMHO!
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAHow about the method of drawing circles using two nails and a framing square
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAOr drawing an ellipse using a ruler.  I think that one goes back to Archimedes.
Reply:Originally Posted by AdVirMachinaYour saying the water expansion in partially sunlit tubing is going to affect the reading? How? It's all the same water. It will mix itself. The laws of thermodynamics says it has to. That's the basis for how heat tubes in laptops work.
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAHow come the arctic ocean is colder than the carribean?  It's all the same water.  Exactly which law of thermodynamic are you refering?Usually the tube is too small a diameter to get good water circulation.  The sunny end will be hotter than the shady end.  Get a tube and try it yourself!
Reply:Passive cooling on computers is typically done with hollow copper pipes/tubes.  Water cooled has a pump.For water it's density changes with temperature.  The density times the column height gives you the pressure.  Less dense means longer column height.  If the water was mixed it would be accurate.... Except for curvature of the earth and local gravity variations.
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAHow come the arctic ocean is colder than the carribean?  It's all the same water.  Exactly which law of thermodynamic are you refering?Usually the tube is too small a diameter to get good water circulation.  The sunny end will be hotter than the shady end.  Get a tube and try it yourself!
Reply:Originally Posted by Fast LeroyTemperature has no effect on the water level.  The level of the ocean in the south pacific is the same as the ocean level in the north sea, it’s all sea level.  Same in the water tube, no matter what the temperature is.
Reply:Originally Posted by con_fuse9Actually the water levels are all over the place.  Even at Panama canal Pacific Ocean doesn't equal Atlantic.  Tides, spinning of earth, currents etc. all play a role.In the case of a long tube - when you move the tube, you can get the water to slosh back and forth (momentum) but after a while it settles down back to level.  If you were to take a measurement at the center of the tube, you would see that water pressure in each direction is even (if it wasn't even, the water would move from high pressure to low).  That water pressure is based on water column height.  Lift one tube, and momentarily the water pressure would increase until it settle down again.p = h ρ g  or pressure = height x density x gravity.   Lets assume gravity is the same (or close enough), density does change with temp   so if one column (the vertical part of the tube) was warmer, its density would be less and if the water column heights were the same, the ultimate pressure exerted on the middle of the tube has to be different.Since the pressure can't be different (pressure will even out) the only way to achieve this is with different column heights.However, from freezing to just below boiling, water density changes about 4%.  That means if one end is at 33 degrees, the other at 200 degrees and the actual column height is 1ft, you are talking 1/2".  From room temp to about 125 deg F, the change is more like 1% - or 1/8"The method I like to use is a 5 gallon bucket with a tube and then go around marking things out to the same height.  I draw the water from the same bucket.  Presumably the temperature doesn't change that much in a second or two.   See:
Reply:Originally Posted by AdVirMachinaI don't buy that because the density of the water won't change the total weight of the vertical portion once the system reaches stability. It may expand on the heated side, but that will only push the water on the unheated side slightly away from the center point you mention. It does not change the air pressure above it either.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fast LeroyTemperature has no effect on the water level.  The level of the ocean in the south pacific is the same as the ocean level in the north sea, it’s all sea level.  Same in the water tube, no matter what the temperature is.
Reply:Well......this thread went to hell in a handbasket.I'll try to dig up some more old school measuring stuff.  This sort of thing is interesting to me.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:Ok who knows where to find the popcorn guy?Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:I always learned that when you set a ladder up you should be able to reach a rung that was level with your shoulder to be close to the correct pitch for the ladder not to tip or kick out
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAWell......this thread went to hell in a handbasket. . .
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAI just mentioned the oceans to demonstrate the flawed argument made by AdVirMachina.  No law of thermodynamics insures the water will be all the same temperature.Equal, consistant temperature has no effect on the water level.  Uneven heating will definitely have an effect.
Reply:The "three plate method" of generating flat surfaces.  I think this is simply amazing.Take three plates (typically cast iron, or granite).Mark them A, B, and CUse plate A as a reference. Apply bluing (similar to paint that doesn't quickly dry) in a very thin layer to A.Press plates A and B together.  Where the bluing transfers to B, that's a "high spot".Scrape off the high spots.Apply more bluing to A and press plates A and B together different orientation (rotate B around).Repeat this operation a few times.Now use B as a reference to scrape A.Now use A as a reference to scrape C.Then use A as a reference to scrape CThen B to CThen C to AThen C to BetcEach time you remove the high spots, you make the surfaces of each plate more closely match each other.If the surfaces very closely match, in any combination of plates, in any combination of rotations, then the surfaces must be flat.In this way, you can create surfaces that are very flat without any sort of precision instruments and with only very simple tools.  It's like building something from nothing!I think this goes back to Maudslay in the late 1700sDynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE