Should I hire this guy?

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Been looking for some part time help and I had a guy come in who worked as a welder on an assembly line. Gave him some cut-to-length square tubing, all mitered, and ground and asked him to make me as square of a square as he could using what was on the table. Gave him some C-clamps, squares, hammer, etc. He ONLY used the small square, lined it up, and started welding with one or two tacks. Needless to say, it didn't turn out very square. I'm going back and forth on what I think of this. For one, I understand most assembly line welders are given something that's tacked up and put together so they don't usually have to worry about it warping or shifting, so is this a habit that is difficult to break? Most of the things I make only need to look square. But if I want him to make something that NEEDS to be square I want to be confident he can do it. I really liked the guy and being a small shop, it is important that I get along with the other people in there. He made very nice looking welds. But on the other hand, I have a hard time believing he's never used clamps to keep something square and you would think at an interview he would use more precaution than normal to make a perfectly square, square. I would be hiring him on a contract basis, meaning he gets paid per assembly, cut, weld, grind, etc, so it doesn't really make a difference to me how fast he goes, as long as he does a good job. Opinions or past experiences??John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Common sense test,listen to what you want to achieve test failed. most important didn't listen to requirement,keep lookineither you LIKE BACON or you're WRONG!!!! "There are three kinds of men.The ones that learn by readin'.The few who learn by observation.The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves"-Will Rogers
Reply:Did he provide references from his assembly line or previous work? Maybe the tolerances he worked under did not require him to learn or practice skills to be more precise. Might be worth asking these questions there. He may have never been shown or had tooling to sq things up.I once hired a guy that had limited reading skills. I was greatly concerned about whether he could work on his own. I found out it was a liability but, once shown he never forgot or cut corners. He was with me 15 yrs. Some of his other skills he brought to the table I miss greatly.If you like him, and need him, start him on a trial basis. Write down and share your concerns of his limitations and what you are expecting his skills to be at the end of a trial period. Agree to a progress report midway so he is not blindsided and you do not feel bad if the skills do not develop. If he was as skilled as you ...you might be working for him
Reply:I hope you did not stack the deck against him. I would have welded it as square as possible, then beat it into submission the rest of the way. You could low ball a job offer and coach him until he can do it on his own or can his asz if he can't, if you think he is teachable. If he met your expectations after a probationary period, then bring him up in pay.Last edited by shovelon; 01-02-2015 at 10:38 AM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:If it don't become a babysitting thing then give it a chance........zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I don't know man. Maybe try him out and see how it does and if it doesn't work out don't give him any more contractsYou know I can weld pretty well but you saw that square table top I did (first square project), in fact it's still waiting for you to fix it hahaTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI don't know man. Maybe try him out and see how it does and if it doesn't work out don't give him any more contractsYou know I can weld pretty well but you saw that square table top I did (first square project), in fact it's still waiting for you to fix it haha
Reply:Is he currently out of work ? If he is and appears wanting to learn, give him a chance. Sadly them are many guys like this. I had a partner that could weld upside down , any position, and was amazing. Ask him to take a measurement and his reply was I would rather not. I don't want to screw it up. He was one heck of a guy and welder.
Reply:I think giving him a chance on a trial basis is a great idea.  MOST times it's how an employee fits into the existing crew that matters (minimum skill level required).  Everything else can fall into place as the expectations (on both sides) are articulated well.  If he learns what you want and applies that to the production requirements then you both win.I really have no idea what I am doing.Two Shop Cats (not Bobcats...real cats)Miller DialArc 250 AC/DCScratch-Start TIG SetupMIG 175Plasma CutterO/A
Reply:Originally Posted by EcondronI didn't know you wanted me to fix it? Haha Bring it over some time. You can give me some TIG lessons while you're here haha. That's a good point. I think I'll give him a chance with some simple stuff and see if he is "teachable".
Reply:Everyone is always learning.  The real test is not what someone can do, but how they react to you pointing out the mistakes.  In a completely different context, as an engineering firm, our interview is 25% what they know, 75% how they react.Bottom line, you could tell this person in about 30 seconds how to do THAT job right.  The real question is what does that person do with that information.  Does he ask to do the test over?   Does he ask if there is a way to correct what he has already done?  (I'd like to see both - that's just me).  Does he make an excuse - "Well that's good enough at where I used to work" (yeah, try telling YOUR customers that).  Does he become flustered and think "Wow, this job is too ______" (fill in the blank "stressful", "exacting", etc.).  Then yes, the job is not right for him.At the end of the day, you need your employees to 1) Be smart and 2) Get the job done.  And done is to spec, no excuses.  We also assume that an employee will be a drag on the company for some time (in our world, my boss says 3 years.... yep 3 years).  After that, you expect the employee to start making contributions.... suggest better ways of doing the job.   So we look at long term.   Are we willing to mentor this person (personality).  Are they willing to learn (everyone and their mother says they willing to learn, not everyone actually is).Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by wannab1I think giving him a chance on a trial basis is a great idea.  MOST times it's how an employee fits into the existing crew that matters (minimum skill level required).  Everything else can fall into place as the expectations (on both sides) are articulated well.  If he learns what you want and applies that to the production requirements then you both win.
Reply:I've helped lots of guys go from willing to learn to better than I am. Part of owning a business.Some of them were pretty pig-headed, but you can either beat them into submission or sometimes under the stubborn they do want to get better.One guy I had thought he knew everything, but he also knew I was far better than he was and he wanted to learn. He had a hard time remembering to check the attitude and just do it the way he was told. Since he was new to my company he was starting at the bottom. I sent him to do some clean-up work, which I knew he hated, but I also knew he really wanted to use some new tools we got for the job we were on so I added "...when you're done, you can grab the new driver and finish up at the top there." He got excited, he'd be stuck using the old tools all day. He said "Ah, I see, the old carrot and stick." I said "Yep, gotta' reward a guy if you can. But don't matter to me either way, you can follow the carrot and I'll get more carrots, or, I can beat you with the stick while I eat the carrots. At the end of the day the job has to get done." He laughed, we understood each other, he worked for me till he got a job offer in another state that let him move back by his family, I paid him a goodbye bonus and told him I always had work if he ever needed it.Mr. HE
Reply:I'd hire him but tell him he had a two week trial period, and be up front with him about what your concerns are.  Give him a full detail of how and what you want done and maybe a quick tutorial in some fit up technique...or better yet, repeat the test by YOU doing it in front of him. That may teach him more and give him a full understanding than anything verbal would.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:You already know your answer but for some reason you're struggling with it. How the heck can anyone really on this board do more than throw darts in the dark at the question?This is just general stuff I would do. Do you have a valid drivers license?Do you own a motor vehicle? Make, model, miles and condition.How far do you live from work?Do you have your own helmet, gloves, leathers, glasses tools, etc.Ask him what he thinks about 2 days unpaid testing for the job? Just an observation question.Does he own a welder?Ask him what he brought into work on his last job and why?
Reply:He obviously can't fab well. Why is he no longer working at his previous job? Talk to his previous employer and you will find out the real story most of the time.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:I'm not gonna lie, I was exactly the guy you just described, my first welding  job out of school I worked was in a fast paste MIG wire welding concrete frames all day on all kinds of diffrent jigs with clamps on them and I never had to measure anything, cut anything or make anything square.  and to be honest I could barely even use a tape measure when I was in welding school.  Then that job ended and I went down the road looking for work and I got a welding test at my current job at a repeatable company welding low bed trailers from scratch.  They gave me a simple welding test: build an I beam with on a 10"x10" plate and I had basically no fit up experience whatsoever so I started shaking and got very nervous but I did the test as best I could just eye balling it and my welds were decent.  Basically they hired me for my personality and maybe they saw something in me.  That was only 4 months ago.  Well needless to say I study welding at home on youtube and I have several books and I just love my trade so much and it shows in my work.  I have very good welds now that could pass code if they had to and I never have to grind them down to make them look pretty like all the other under 5 year experienced welders.  I learned so much and I come to work 30 minutes early every day and I'm always on time and I work hard.  I would hire the guy if you think he has potential.  Even tho I soared in school and got 9 welding certifications inducing 3G,4G GMAW, 3G,4G SMAW E-7018 and 2 6G pipe welding certifications I still needed someone to give me a chance.Last edited by Lunchbox148; 01-03-2015 at 11:14 AM.Psalm 121:1-21 I lift up my eyes to the hills—    where does my help come from?2 My help comes from the Lord,    the Maker of heaven and earth.
Reply:that's what happens when you hire a welder. advertise for a welder/fabricator and you may get better results. as you said yourself he worked on an assembly line welding things already fitted up by someone else. you were expecting too much from him but i'm sure he could pick up a few fabricating tricks in no time if you wanted to take the effort to instruct him.Last edited by docwelder; 01-03-2015 at 11:10 AM.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:Also I got a dude a job at my work who was a mutual friend because he seemed like he needed a little help. Fast Forward a year, the kid is a ****ing ******* and I wish I would have never helped him. In fact I prefer the kid be stuck in a ditch some place. So keep him at an arms length for awhile and don't show him any of your trade secrets, or let him know who your customers are in case he tries to screw you over. Maybe it's worth getting a few people hired on for contact type work. So you can reach out to a few people if needed. One guy that's good at ABC and one guy that's good at XYZTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Based on past experience I'd have serious reservations about ever hiring some one again and paying them on a piece work (per assembly) basis.  Even if they're really good welders their main incentive is going to be to whip them out just as quick possible with the bare minimum of acceptable quality.   The time I tried that it just ended up in a downward spiral of arguing with them over quality to the point I just ended the relationship.   I think you'd be better off just offering the guy a reasonable hourly wage to work for you part time.   If he doesn't come up to speed and learn quick enough to do things the way you want them done so he's cost effective for you to continue to pay, you just have to cut him loose and try some one else.
Reply:I have been hired this way once or twice. Tell the guy look I will hire you on a trial basis for one month. At the end of one month if you work out you on. But if doesn't or it isn't wat you won't your gone. With on hard feelings. That way you and he can see if it is what you and he both want on a trial basis.
Reply:Originally Posted by johnrbauerI have been hired this way once or twice. Tell the guy look I will hire you on a trial basis for one month. At the end of one month if you work out you on. But if doesn't or it isn't wat you won't your gone. With on hard feelings. That way you and he can see if it is what you and he both want on a trial basis.
Reply:With production welding they normally just weld whats already been tacked and fabbed,  working with jigs ans patterns theres not much room for error but if you give a guy two bits of metal and ask him to weld it up as close to 90 degrees then that becomes fabrication, and they do need to know what to do.I worked in a place years ago where they were paying the cleaners more money than the production welders. Normally these are people who can weld a bit but have no qualifications or savvy to better themselves, ie, they'll stick at their job cos they valve their job security more than bettering themselves to earn more.Sad case really but if his job is going to involve getting work right , all the time perhaps you should ask if he's done any fabrication work then you'll get his true answer
Reply:Keep in mind that once you become a babysitter not only is your employee not productive neither is the boss
Reply:OP - Some questions I have not seen mentioned - are there ANY other candidates?  How bad do you need someone?If he's the only candidate and you need someone desperately it's far different than a dozen potential candidates for a low priority need.A short trial period with the understanding he need to show drastic improvement sounds good.He could have been nervous and not knowing just what you were looking for ie/ Good welds, good fit up, square or how long it took. In a production environment, he may not have had to do much measuring or fitting. Did you give him a tape measure? If he can weld decent and has a willingness to learn could turn out to be a great employee.After school I was looking to see if any shops in Nisku(ind. park) were hiring new apprentices. It was about a month before finishing high school and they asked if I could do a job test. OK. I had to do a vertical up open root butt weld(6010 root/7018 fill). I had my helmet but no coveralls or gloves. They gave me some gloves to use and not thinking I kept my new nylon winter coat on. Of course I melted the arm of it. They set me up at a table and told me where the rod oven was. Darn those rods are hot even with gloves on! I did the test and thought I messed it up pretty bad. One of the foremen took me into the head of hiring's office. On the way he asked why my cap was so wide and I said I've never done a vertical butt weld. We went into the office and the guy asked the foreman how I did. The foreman showed him my piece and said the cap was a little wide and also said I've never done it before. The manager said it was pretty good for never having done it before! I was shocked!!! He asked if I knew what a stinger was and I said yes (but had forgotten at the time). Luckily he didn't question me further. I was offered an apprenticeship right there. He asked when I could start and I said I'll have to check and let you know tomorrow. I talked to my welding teacher and he said my grades were good and if had a job offer, missing the last 2 weeks of school isn't a big deal. This was at a tank shop and the day after I accepted the job, I got a call from another tank shop that was familiar with the trade school I went to. Sadly this school was turned into a regular high school and they got rid of all the mechanical trades.Last edited by Welder Dave; 01-04-2015 at 02:42 AM.
Reply:im in no place to hire or fire, but i have been at this company for a long time, and in it's case, good help is hard to find.good welders tend to be lazy and on the phone with the next higher dollar.good fabbers/ fitters are about the same, but are more stubborn and want to re-tool everything ("well, back at the old shop. . . .")the ones that turn out well are the ones that come in not knowing everything. look at me, came in knowing nothing, got paid nothing to learn a lot, and am now a comfortable contributor.if you hire a guy that does it all, hes between jobs. works well for overflow, cause about the time your done with him, hes done with you. just gotta figure out if you want long term or short term, and your advertised wage will decide who appliesbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:To answer some of your questions, no, he is not the only candidate. Only issue is I'm young (23) and from my experience it tends to cause problems me telling a 45 year old what to do. So this guy is much closer to my age (25). He currently has a full time job and wants to learn more than just welding, so he is looking to work in a general fab shop. Steve, I do agree with what you are saying, but this is one of those low profit, high volume jobs that I would be having him do. Most of the time, it's not problem me doing the work and maximizing the profit, but when I have 2 or 3 other larger jobs all converging at the same time, which has been happening more and more recently, this job gets to be real pain. I would lose a lot of money subbing the work out to another shop. I would be having him cut, drill, weld, grind, and paint. Maybe some bending. Probably wouldn't let him do any machining. Not for a while anyway.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Does he have a good attitude? I can always train someone to do the work I want. But I can't train them to have a good attitude. I'll take a good employee any day of the week and train to proficiency rather than deal with a bad attitude.
Reply:I don't know. These punks now a days don't want to listen, you probably have better odds of an older guy listening to you as they have a lot more respect for people than the younger generation.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:I do a LOT of hiring and firing in my job (which has NOTHING to do with metalworking), but the basic principles apply.The two major "PRO's" in this situation?  He seems to be able to weld well enough and you seem to be able to get along with him.I suspect the thing you asked him to do is simply something he's never done before.  So, now you have to ask yourself, "Does he have a basic skill set I can work from and do I feel comfortable teaching him what I need him to know?"He's not really looking for full-time work and you don't want full time help.  This has the potential to be a win-win situation for both of you...AS LONG AS you feel able and willing to teach.I'd put him on a one-month internship.  Unpaid.  Tell him when to show up and teach him some of the skills you need him to know.  Let him practice with you watching, then let him work on his own, then have him come back and teach it to you.  If he shows up when you want him to, and seems to be able to apply the new skills you teach him, then talk about money for work.There is very little risk in this for either of you...and a LOT of potential gain for both of you...it just depends on your ability and willingness to train the new guy.Of course, make sure you have insurance issues figured out (if he is working in your shop, with your tools and equipment, on your projects, then gets hurt...you need to make sure you are covered.  It's going to be your responsibility to make sure he learns to work safely too.  You need to document that you taught him applicable safety procedures and make sure the correct safety equipment is available for him to use.KevKevin / Machine_Punk from The Aerodrome Studio - Lincoln PowerMIG 210 MP - Meco N Midget w/custom welding station - Vintage Victor 100Current Projects: The Aerodrome Studio
Reply:in some places it may be illegal to have an unpaid or volunteer guy working, even on a trial basis- better check that out.
Reply:Originally Posted by Machine_PunkI do a LOT of hiring and firing in my job (which has NOTHING to do with metalworking), but the basic principles apply.The two major "PRO's" in this situation?  He seems to be able to weld well enough and you seem to be able to get along with him.I suspect the thing you asked him to do is simply something he's never done before.  So, now you have to ask yourself, "Does he have a basic skill set I can work from and do I feel comfortable teaching him what I need him to know?"He's not really looking for full-time work and you don't want full time help.  This has the potential to be a win-win situation for both of you...AS LONG AS you feel able and willing to teach.I'd put him on a one-month internship.  Unpaid.  Tell him when to show up and teach him some of the skills you need him to know.  Let him practice with you watching, then let him work on his own, then have him come back and teach it to you.  If he shows up when you want him to, and seems to be able to apply the new skills you teach him, then talk about money for work.There is very little risk in this for either of you...and a LOT of potential gain for both of you...it just depends on your ability and willingness to train the new guy.Of course, make sure you have insurance issues figured out (if he is working in your shop, with your tools and equipment, on your projects, then gets hurt...you need to make sure you are covered.  It's going to be your responsibility to make sure he learns to work safely too.  You need to document that you taught him applicable safety procedures and make sure the correct safety equipment is available for him to use.Kev
Reply:Like has been said attitude is everything. Some one teachable is better than a know it all. I hate when you tell some one something and they spend 20 minutes trying to tell you a better way to do a 5 min job.Millermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:Hire him he should have his probation by now. Do something even if its wrong just do it.
Reply:Originally Posted by stoneaxein some places it may be illegal to have an unpaid or volunteer guy working, even on a trial basis- better check that out.