Broken weld

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Hi I have been around welding for many years but have not done much. That said I am a Production Manager and we have metal carts that we use to move items around and to machines. The other day one of the carts broke and when I check it I found the actual weld broke. I inspected 9 other carts and found they also had welds that were broke. When I say the weld broke I mean the weld separated from where it was welded to another piece of metal. 6 of the 9 carts had failures. When I wrote it up as bad welds I was told by the welder that I wasn't a welder so I don't know what I am talking about and he said the weld broke apart due to the carts being pushed into each other... My understanding is when a weld is done right it becomes the strongest part. Can anyone tell me how I defend this as he just tack welded the broken weld again and said it is good to go and I am worried about our people. Does this look like a good weld? I have never seen using a rod attached to member and welded to another metal piece. When I read up on welding it said it was very important to make sure the area was clean and ready and depending on the heat and metal if don't correctly then the weld is the strongest link. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks
Reply:That looks like a good weld..... FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!Last edited by TimmyTIG; 01-15-2015 at 07:37 PM.
Reply:fire whoever is welding that.....Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Fire the dude who is welding. He is less of a welder than you are. You knew it was a bad weld and he didn't..Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:maybe you aren't a welder... but neither is he.
Reply:I would fire the so called welder AND the guy the guy that hired him.
Reply:Pretty ugly stuff! Often a weld is stronger than the workpiece. The heat will migrate from the molten filler metal, components will mix between parent metal & filler. Ultimately, the new break will be beside the weld, not through it. This mess broke in the middle!  Your "welder" is not a welder. Maybe he could be taught, until he is he should not weld critical objects.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Can we move this to the butt of the joke pile?SqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1I would fire the so called welder AND the guy the guy that hired him.
Reply:Thanks everyone so is it safe to say that if the weld is done correctly it should not break apart in the middle or top of the weld or come away from where the weld was attached? I didn't understand when he said the weld will break if the cart is banged into another cart so I thought something was weird
Reply:If the base metal and the weld are abused, there will be failures.The weakest part fails first.As has been mentioned, get yourself a real weldor and have him or her repair those carts properly.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:I could crash these together all day. BANG BANG BANG!SqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:I would guess that maybe 95% of the members here could weld those carts together, and you could run over them with a truck, and the welds would not break.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:is this your in house welder? Or do you farm this out to a so called welder?Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:He is our Senior guy who runs our maintenance shop so it makes we worry as he wont allow anyone else to weld or send it out..
Reply:Originally Posted by gemlineHe is our Senior guy who runs our maintenance shop so it makes we worry as he wont allow anyone else to weld or send it out..
Reply:Even at my skill level, I can see that is CRAP!30+ yrs Army Infantry & Field Artillery, 25 yrs agoMiller 350LX Tig Runner TA 210, spool gunLincoln 250/250 IdealArcESAB PCM 500i PlasmaKazoo 30"  vert BSKazoo 9x16 horiz BSClausing 12x24 lathe20T Air Press
Reply:WOW! He is NOT a welder. My wife can do better welds than that. Seriously.You get what you put in and people get what they deserve...
Reply:Hand the man a broom and see if he knows how to sweep.I am no professional weldor but if he can't weld that little angle together properly then he needs to be taught to weld. If he has been doing it for 30 years then he has been doing it wrong for 30 years...GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:That's his job security he keeps doing crappy work and passing the blame on to someone else get someone else to weld that is a safety issue .  If the weld is right banging the carts together isn't gonna break the weld , the piles I've been welding all week are drove roughly 90 ft in the ground the hammer generates roughly 700 kips per hit which is 700000 lbs per blow and it take a bunch of hits to get it down and the welds hold so tell him to blow it up someone else's rear end.Last edited by DockMan30817; 01-15-2015 at 09:33 PM.
Reply:Just because someone knows how to turn on the welder doesn't make them a weldor. These "welds" are junk. If this is the head of the maitenance department I would question what else is patched together thoughout the business. I would force him out, and any others like him, with a simple set of break tests. They don't have to be done by a certified inspector, just train one of your employees or do the groundwork yourself, and make passing the simple weld tests a part of welding at your establishment.
Reply:That guy might think he's a welder but his work proves otherwise.
Reply:Originally Posted by gemlineThanks everyone so is it safe to say that if the weld is done correctly it should not break apart in the middle or top of the weld or come away from where the weld was attached? I didn't understand when he said the weld will break if the cart is banged into another cart so I thought something was weird
Reply:Fire that guy!!!!And don't spare the language!!Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:This cart has seen its abuse and no breaky on da welds Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridgeI think maybe your maintenance man needs glasses...and some welding lessons!Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Any retarded blind mongrel could weld better than that. If this guy is in charge of maintenance, who does he know/blow who's higher up? Seriously, he needs a dose of reality. He could be putting people in harms way. I think he's making the carts less safe after he butchers them with the welding machine.
Reply:If that's a weld, I'm applying for a job at NASA. Space shuttle here I come.     Don't wait for someone to get injured or killed because he can't perform basic repairs. What kind of weight do those carts carry? Is it more than 50lbs? Would you depend on that weld/repair with your life? I sure wouldn't, that tells me, this guy doesn't care about the safety of others. He's nothing more than a payroll sponge, doing the bare minimum to collect a check.   Sort his a$$ out by testing his abilities and document it thoroughly. If/when he fails, send him packing. Then you can get someone new, with credentials, verifying their abilities. Gaining some peace of mind, that every time some heavy equipment rolls Through your shop it won't end in tragedy.    Managing people can be hard or rewarding, it takes the right people and management to accomplish the desired results. I'm afraid one of your people is pulling the rest of you away from success.    Good luck in getting this sorted out.  You know what the problem is, handle it accordingly.    I'm sure one of the guys here would be more than happy to do the destructive testing for you. Anyone care to elaborate on the proper size & thickness, for a legitimate bend test coupon?Thermal arc 211iCk flex-loc 150 & 130Clamps, saws & grindersHarbor freight 80 amp inverter
Reply:Hey,I was using my HF 110 welder....it shoulda held!
Reply:gemline, let me make this easy for you. I fired 12 union / state certified welders on this job. Every one of them went to the parking lot for a he!! of a lot less than what your maintenance man did. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:You are the production manager, so you have the say regarding safety of your people.  I don't know if you have an engineering department or what the structure of your company is but I would sht can those carts and place orders for new onesand let somebody else tell you that you have to use them or provide a proper fix.Any engineer would agree with you about the bad welds.millermatic 130XPharbour freight 180 amp mig with added caps.hobart stickmate ac/dcpowerarc 200
Reply:I'm going to play devil's advocate here, for just a minute.Yes, those welds appear to be very poor quality examples of the craft.  Yes, it's almost certainly the fault of the person who made them.But, we don't know what kind of equipment and resources (tools, abrasives, solvents for cleaning, etc) this maintenance department has.  Nor do we know how much time management provides for making proper repairs.  Lastly, we don't know what kind of budget the maintenance department has for raw materials.So before everybody throws a four-letter word or two at this maintenance supervisor, or suggests that he lose his job over this, take a minute to think about the bigger picture. OK, off my soapbox for now.Gemline, Here's an example from my own collection, a repair to a mower deck that had a faulty weld.  This isn't exactly like the problem you're having, but the basics are the same.  There are some pictures of the failure, the proper means of preparing for the repair, and what a sound short circuit MIG weld should look like.  Clean around the failure, remove the damaged weld and base material.  Deposit a new, sound weld.  Paint to prevent corrosion. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...-manufacturingIf the root cause of these failures is related to abuse of the carts, maybe they need some bumpers or cushions on those vulnerable corners.  Maybe the workers on the floor need some training as well to prevent abuse in the first place.  Are the loads being transported on the carts too large?  Is this making the carts hard to steer or stop?  Is the shop floor too rough for the wheels on the carts, making them difficult to start or stop moving?  Do the floors need repairs or do the carts need larger, pneumatic tires to compensate for the rough terrain they're used on?If your maintenance guys can't make repairs that look professional, make sure they're not being pressured into doing shoddy work by demands that equipment be returned to service ASAP.  If they have no money for tools and consumables, then there's another problem that needs to be addressed.  If there's not some kind of rudimentary welding test for those who apply for a job in the maintenance dept, maybe there should be.  I'm not suggesting you need a million welding procedures and guys tested annually.  But maybe a simple T joint fillet weld in the horizontal position.  It should pass a visual inspection.  Then cut the fillet and look at the penetration.  If a tech can't make a sound weld on something simple, then they need training and your company needs to outsource welding repairs until someone in the maintenance dept can produce a sound weld under good conditions.Your local community college or a trade school like Hobart Inst. of Welding Tech. can teach almost anybody to make simple fillet and groove welds with MIG in short period of time.  Some schools will even come to your facility to provide training.  Just a suggestion.Last edited by A_DAB_will_do; 01-16-2015 at 09:10 AM.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Is this your guyBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Thats what happens when the wife asks you to weld something late at night.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Assumption is, those are MIG Welds....They appear to be stick welds at too low of heat hence lacking penetration.The melted rod weld is debatable as to Stick or Mig.But analyzing the PO's post leads me to believe that they are indeed stick welds made by the Grumpy Know-It-All Maintenance guy that was there before him. I also read into this that it is a small family owned company where the person got his job because he is friends with the owner. The Production Supervisor will have a LONG ROAD to HOE if this is indeed the case!Another way to work around this is to take a few welding courses, learning on the machine used at work, then cajole the Maintenance guy into letting him weld one or two of the carts as practice for his class. Maybe even getting the old guy to look at how it COULD BE done different!Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't!I did it with the OLD PIPE WELDERS here!I welded some stuff for them to see, asked how they would do it different, then progressed to welding pipe joints to prove I can and able to critique their products. Not that I am required to weld pipe or weld here period but can, often times sneaking in to their area when they are swamped and just helping by grinding bevels, setting up jigs, handing them tools ready and adjusted. Makes everyone's job easier because if I need something Modified for Test right away, I can then usually depend on them to help.Sometimes Sugar is better than a Baseball Bat when trying to Lead the Horse to Water, let alone getting him to drink out of the Trough!
Reply:Fu$king boss fired me early this morning , said I couldn't weld for chit ! I was so close to retiring  Im gonna kill that mofo after he gets off work
Reply:Originally Posted by gemlineHe is our Senior guy who runs our maintenance shop so it makes we worry as he wont allow anyone else to weld or send it out..
Reply:box those babys up and send them to me. i'll fix them for half of what you pay that impostor. those welds are shameful. maybe even pigeon poop.dave.
Reply:Originally Posted by gemlineHi I have been around welding for many years but have not done much. That said I am a Production Manager and we have metal carts that we use to move items around and to machines. The other day one of the carts broke and when I check it I found the actual weld broke. I inspected 9 other carts and found they also had welds that were broke. When I say the weld broke I mean the weld separated from where it was welded to another piece of metal. 6 of the 9 carts had failures. When I wrote it up as bad welds I was told by the welder that I wasn't a welder so I don't know what I am talking about and he said the weld broke apart due to the carts being pushed into each other... My understanding is when a weld is done right it becomes the strongest part. Can anyone tell me how I defend this as he just tack welded the broken weld again and said it is good to go and I am worried about our people. Attachment 970961Attachment 970971Attachment 970981Does this look like a good weld? I have never seen using a rod attached to member and welded to another metal piece. When I read up on welding it said it was very important to make sure the area was clean and ready and depending on the heat and metal if don't correctly then the weld is the strongest link. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks
Reply:Ok, so tell us what happened at work today.Did you fire him?Did you pull him aside?
Reply:I would say poor design of the carts followed by poor construction and even poorer repair work. The carts are likely overloaded for their design, then when they break, they are cobbled together with whatever crap is lying around.  Contact a mobil repair welder and have him come out and rework one or two and see how long they hold up after a pro repair.
Reply:Really?Um mm yeah whatever..........zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:ughh.. what an bean brain! he should have not used all thread!!! the industry standard is nails! If you can find a 80 penny then you are stylin! But there is one golden rule with nails, they only work when used with the smallest welding rod possible. And don't grind them, the vinyl coating acts as a flux....
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Is this your guy
Reply:Looks like crap,no weld in the joint.Fire the fool that made those welds.Hard to call them welds.
Reply:Welds look poor, carts don't look like they carry much weight or thy would not have particle board tops. I do maintenance for a living and I will agree management sometimes makes bad calls on how stuff gets done. With out being there to see what he had to work with its hard to say if a better job could have been done. I have seen before where a guy wants to do it right but is not provided with what it takes to do a good job. There becomes a point where some guys just say they don't care why should I. I would think even under the worst circumstances a better job could have been done. After reading all the responses to this, it looked like only one person out of the group responded with something different then "FIRE HIM". I hope you are able to sort it out and get things on track one way or another.