Suggestions for TIG torch type, water or air, long or short cables?

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I'm going to be getting my first TIG setup, a 200-ish amp  AC/DC tig setup in the next couple months.   I'm going to do mostly auto-fab type projects:  Stuff like roll cages, intake, exhausts, light frames, suspension arms, etc.   It will be part-time / hobby work, not production.  I have some questions that you experienced folks can probably help me with, keep in mind I've got 1 hour tig welding in my life to this point (a lot of Mig time though).  -  I'm not sure if I should get an air torch or invest in a water cooled torch.  I can afford either but I still want to be smart with my money. -  If I go water I understand the "20" is standard, is that true?-  If i go Air I'm not sure if a 9 or 17 or 26 is best.  -  Is a pyrex cup worth it? -  Is a thumb control worth it?-  My shop is 2 car garage sized, 25' cables would get from the side wall where my 240 plug is to my work bench easily.  Is it usuallyworth dealing with longer welding cables or better to keep the welder closer and use my extension cord and shorter cables?
Reply:Whether you need a water cooler depends on what heat output and duty cycle you're looking to achieve. For example, the WP-17 series of air-cooled torches is rated up to 115 amps AC at 60% duty cycle. The WP-9 is a smaller torch that is preferred by a lot of folks, and is rated up to 100 amps AC at 60% duty cycle. If those thresholds work for you, you may be able to skip a water cooler. That being said, a lot of people who use AC TIG end up with a water cooler, and I have even heard someone say that a water-cooler is mandatory for Aluminum because you need to use such a high output to weld Aluminum properly.A lot of people who weld air-cooled like the WP-9 because of its size. A good compromise is the WP-17 with a "stubby gas lens" kit, which brings the size of the torch down closer to that of a WP-9, but with a higher duty cycle. The WP-26 is rated up to 150 amps, but I have never heard anyone say they preferred a larger TIG torch to a smaller one, so I reckon most people would prefer a water-cooled smaller torch than the WP-26. Especially if you are doing detailed work like intakes and exhausts, the larger torch is really going to cramp your style.Pyrex cups are good for demonstrations, but I don't think they are necessary, or even necessarily helpful, for welding. They are pretty expensive. I think you'd be better off getting a gas lens kit. Having a smidge of extra stickout, or being able to get the tungsten deeper into a joint is nice.Thumb control is, IMO, only desirable if you don't have or can't use a pedal. If you are in a shop, working on a bench, you will just use a pedal, and will never want a thumb control. Even if you don't have a pedal, you may prefer to use your welder's 4T function, since manipulating a thumb control inherently means wiggling your hand around, which will create unsteadiness and will compromise your weld, at least aesthetically.The question of long cables or long extension cord doesn't have one right answer. If you are going to have a water cooler setup, you may find that you prefer to keep your welder and the cooler over by the wall, and just walk your leads around. But some people also put their water cooler and their welder on a cart and roll it around. It's just a question of personal preference. Bear in mind that, if you are working with a pedal, you will also need a longer pedal cable, if you get long leads. You will also not be able to just reach over and tweak the welder's settings if it's all the way on the other side of the garage. Then again, having to lug a big heavy cart around every time you need to move to a different joint is a hassle too. So it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:Thanks a lot for the great info. I understand now that a water torch is quite small, a 20 being the same size as a 9.  How do the cables compare?  Is a water-cooled cable setup with a cover a lot more difficult to work with than an air cooled setup? I'm leaning towards a 25' setup right now because even though I want to have the welder on a cart, my garage isn't large open space and I'm always tripping over my MIG machine when I wheel it out to do work.  Is there any downside to long cables besides the physical storage of the cable?
Reply:Originally Posted by bikesandcarsI'm going to be getting my first TIG setup, a 200-ish amp  AC/DC tig setup in the next couple months.   I'm going to do mostly auto-fab type projects:  Stuff like roll cages, intake, exhausts, light frames, suspension arms, etc.   It will be part-time / hobby work, not production.  I have some questions that you experienced folks can probably help me with, keep in mind I've got 1 hour tig welding in my life to this point (a lot of Mig time though).  -  I'm not sure if I should get an air torch or invest in a water cooled torch.  I can afford either but I still want to be smart with my money. -  If I go water I understand the "20" is standard, is that true?-  If i go Air I'm not sure if a 9 or 17 or 26 is best.  -  Is a pyrex cup worth it? -  Is a thumb control worth it?-  My shop is 2 car garage sized, 25' cables would get from the side wall where my 240 plug is to my work bench easily.  Is it usuallyworth dealing with longer welding cables or better to keep the welder closer and use my extension cord and shorter cables?
Reply:I JUST switched from an air cooled 17-F to a water cooled CK 20 swivel torch with the super flex hoses.Not only is the water cooled torch smaller and lighter than the air cooled, but the hoses are too.You need to understand that not only does the water cool the torch, it also cools the leads.  So the lead wires are sized smaller, because they assume they won't run as hot since they're cooled.  So even though you've now got three tubes under the cover, it still adds up to less than an air cooled.Both my torches were 25'.  That matched the 25' cable on my foot pedal.I have a 25' thumb control too.  It never leaves the drawer.  Totally sucks.  I've used my foot pedal between my knees in off-position.  That's better for my style.What I did, was put rings into my ceiling, and clip carabiners into the rings.  Then I hang the torch and pedal cables from the biners, slinging it from the machine to my bench.My ground wire is wrapped in split loom to protect the insulation as it is dragged on the floor and stepped on.  You don't want to be stepping on your torch hoses.I'm not knocking the 17, but you're not going to get the most out of a 200A machine with it.  60% at 115A is overly optimistic.  I was experiencing more like 30% at 125A, and 10% at 150A.  Any more than that, and I would have to switch from tig to stick gloves because the torch was so hot.That's well under my machine's duty cycle.  My 20 torch easily outpaces the welder's duty cycle.  No more having to stop and wait 20 minutes for the torch to cool.  And the smaller torch is SO much easier to get into places.Last edited by rlitman; 10-02-2013 at 03:41 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by bikesandcarsI'm going to be getting my first TIG setup, a 200-ish amp  AC/DC tig setup in the next couple months.   I'm going to do mostly auto-fab type projects:  Stuff like roll cages, intake, exhausts, light frames, suspension arms, etc.   It will be part-time / hobby work, not production.  I have some questions that you experienced folks can probably help me with, keep in mind I've got 1 hour tig welding in my life to this point (a lot of Mig time though).
Reply:Unless your doing chrome moly cages, aluminum heads-blocks, bike swing arms etc.......(certified, sanctified, rectified) Why a TIG ?There's nothing wrong with a MIG, in the right hands. In the wrong hands it's the most dangerous thing ever brought to metalwork.If the lid falls of the BBQ it's one movie. If the neck falls off a drag bike at 100 mph it's ...it's_______________.
Reply:Agree with all of the above.  Must add that the 25' is kinda mandatory.  If you're working in a 2 car garage (as I am) you're gonna want the flexibility of the longer cable.   Who wants to wheel a machine around a project while you're working on it?My welder and cooler are under my bench in one garage bay.  If I want to do a large project that won't fit on my bench,I can set up horses in the other bay and just move my torch, ground and pedal over.  Oh, and another big + to the 20 water cooled torch.  Sooooo much more maneuverable than the 17.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:I have only used a wp17 for many years now on all the stuff the OP listed he wants to do. Yes I wish I had a bigger torch or water cooled at times but I get by. Get the welder and start making exhausts, lots of them, for many years, then make a decision what torch you want.
Reply:Thanks again everyone.   I've done some more research and am definately leaning towards a water cooled 20 series with 25' cables.   A big part of the cost decision for me isn't the torch (it's essentially the same either way), it's the cooler cost.  I think I will make my own cooler setup integrated with a welding cart after reading several of the DIY's on how to do that.  I think I can put a once-through total loss system together for less than $20 to get started and then hopefully the rest of the setup for less than $200 depending on pump cost. I called the nuclear plant, they are going to let me practice on reactor side pressure piping for a couple hours to learn.  After that I'm going to be welding aircraft frames, bungee-cord towers, and the space shuttle.  You'll hear on the news how it turns out....Last edited by bikesandcars; 10-03-2013 at 12:50 PM.
Reply:I'd have switched to water cooled much sooner, if it weren't for the effort of setting up a cooler.  The water my garden approach was not acceptable to me, because it would have prevented me from welding in the winter.  Anyway, making the cooler turned out to not be a big problem.
Reply:Originally Posted by bikesandcarsI called the nuclear plant, they are going to let me practice on reactor side pressure piping for a couple hours to learn.  After that I'm going to be welding aircraft frames, bungee-cord towers, and the space shuttle.  You'll hear on the news how it turns out....
Reply:I use a 26 and it still gets hot too fast.And it's the size of a medium hammer.And the heavy inflexible cable sucks.Did I mention I bought a nice new-old-stock pump and motor so I can make a water cooled outfit? Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by bikesandcarsI called the nuclear plant, they are going to let me practice on reactor side pressure piping for a couple hours to learn.  After that I'm going to be welding aircraft frames, bungee-cord towers, and the space shuttle.  You'll hear on the news how it turns out....
Reply:Originally Posted by bikesandcarsThanks again everyone.   I've done some more research and am definately leaning towards a water cooled 20 series with 25' cables.   A big part of the cost decision for me isn't the torch (it's essentially the same either way), it's the cooler cost.  I think I will make my own cooler setup integrated with a welding cart after reading several of the DIY's on how to do that.  I think I can put a once-through total loss system together for less than $20 to get started and then hopefully the rest of the setup for less than $200 depending on pump cost. I called the nuclear plant, they are going to let me practice on reactor side pressure piping for a couple hours to learn.  After that I'm going to be welding aircraft frames, bungee-cord towers, and the space shuttle.  You'll hear on the news how it turns out....
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255Set up a total loss garden hose system, then search for a cooler.  Keep an eye on eBay.  I found a Coolmate 3 that was made for Japan by Miller for $100.  Didn't know it at the time.  Posted up picks and two other forum members got in on the deal also.  Exterior has chi com writing on it, inside all Miller.
Reply:At a hardware store (in the drip irrigation section), or in a Walmart (in the RV section), you can get an inline adapter that goes on a garden hose which regulates the pressure down to 50PSI (so nothing breaks).Then you can get a drip irrigation fitting which reduces the hose size down to 1/4" tubing.  That you should be able to connect to your hose with barbed fittings.
Reply:You need to get the LH fittings for the torch online.  Usaweld/HTP has them for a decent price. I have an extra 25' waterline, a hose fitting that will screw on a garden hose with the LH tig connector and a Dinse 50 connector for the 20 series torch laying around.  Pretty much what I used.  Plug and play.  You need to flow 1 liter a minute for a 20 series torch.  You just open the hose valve as much as needed.  Most municipal water is under 30 psi.  PM me if interested.  AFAIC, you could borrow all three and ship back what you don't need when you finally get your cooler. Would be on the honor system.  You just pay the shipping.@Rlitman, where are you located?Last edited by Drf255; 10-05-2013 at 05:28 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:You can hook the water to the water in solenoid whatever way possible and you don't need a regulator..Just don't turn the water on full blast..1/2 turn will suffice.I have been running 450 amps like this for years and years...The water out just flows into the parking lot....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Thanks drf225, thats a very nice offer but I will probably get my own setup going.  I forget to return stuff anyway lolGood idea on turning fawcet down.  I was gonna use an outlet restriction to get 1 qt per minufe.  I'll check my tap pressure, if seems averageSent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk now Free