What to use on mast?

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Hello,I am doing R&D on a small well drilling rig.  Much is going good but the I beam ( W8-18 ) twists more than I would like during high loads.  I am thinking of moving to a combination of a 3x 4 --3/16 tubing with a face plate of 3/8 x 5.5" for the carriage head glides glides.   Will the tubing resist the twisting better than the I beam??????   The mast is 14 ft.  The rotational force is up to 600 ft pounds from the hydraulic motor.  Drilling in rick causes more mast twisting than I believe is good for the long time durability of the unit.   Any input is good.
Reply:I can't find the calcs to back it up right now, but I doubt it.A W8x18 lists as 5 1/4" flange .33" thick by 8 1/8" deep with a 1/4" web. I think dropping to a narrower tube with lighter walls won't help you increase the resistance to torque even with that plate added. I think you are going to need to go bigger. That or plate the sides of the existing wide flange..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Adding stiffeners to the inside of the " I" will help with the twisting.Miller xmt304,  Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DAdding stiffeners to the inside of the " I" will help with the twisting.
Reply:Any kind of box structure is stronger weight for weight than an open structure. I built my mast for the well drilling rig I built out of 2/2 By 3/16 square tubing, a foot apart. with a cross piece on each end. then put a sliding plate out of 1/4 inch to mount the driver and the swivel for the water flow. Absolutely no twist. A square tube is almost as strong as a round piece of pipe when it comes to twisting.  Think how much strain they put on a diesel truck drive line and they are only 1/8 thick.  Mac
Reply:Originally Posted by Tool MakerAny kind of box structure is stronger weight for weight than an open structure. I built my mast for the well drilling rig I built out of 2/2 By 3/16 square tubing, a foot apart. with a cross piece on each end. then put a sliding plate out of 1/4 inch to mount the driver and the swivel for the water flow. Absolutely no twist. A square tube is almost as strong as a round piece of pipe when it comes to twisting.  Think how much strain they put on a diesel truck drive line and they are only 1/8 thick.  Mac
Reply:You could box it or at least put in some X bracing from flange to flange.  They started using diagonal bracing on bridge decking years ago after the original Tacoma Narrows Bridge disaster.Two C-channels welded flange to flange would be much better than an I-beam in torsion."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by tackitWhy couldn't you just weld some gussets and plate down the sides of the existing I beam?
Reply:When I replied about stiffeners I thought that something clipped around a beam flange. Assuming it clips around the top, could you use some 2 in. by 3 or 4 in. angle set corner out at the top to reinforce it? I would think that the angle would stiffen it up quite a bit.Miller xmt304,  Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:Originally Posted by grayMy drill motor carrier glides on the outside flange so I can not go directly from one to the other.   I can and may go from the back outer edge of the flange to the inner edge of the front flange?
Reply:When the mast is in the vertical work position the front flange is the carrier flange that has high density nylon glides on front and about 1.5" around the back of this flange.  I can weld in some back flange to inner part of the front flange on maybe 3 ft centers?   No X bracing possible.   I still hope to find out what to expect if I were to use a rectangular box tube with a flat bar carrier on the edge of it.  I do not want to rebuilt the whole mast on this unit, just hope to add some stiffness.  Thank you all for your input.
Reply:Don't suppose you have any pics do you? I have been considering a build for my remote cabin.
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerDon't suppose you have any pics do you? I have been considering a build for my remote cabin.
Reply:Awesome! I have a 5 acre parcel in a very remote part of the woods. It is rough getting in there with a 4WD pick up, so I know I can't afford the drill rigs to come in there. I have been looking at pictures of small rigs for a while. I have also started to collect parts to build one. What are you using for a swivel? Also what are you using to drive it?
Reply:The rectangular tube will definitely ad stiffness to the mast if you can attach it in  enough places.  I was down to about 160 feet when I broke the cutting head of the drill pipe. The last 40 ft had been through granit. Mac
Reply:Originally Posted by Tool MakerThe rectangular tube will definitely ad stiffness to the mast if you can attach it in  enough places.  I was down to about 160 feet when I broke the cutting head of the drill pipe. The last 40 ft had been through granit. Mac
Reply:Figured it out.   Some pics to get an idea of my unit.
Reply:Bitchen
Reply:As said, I-beams aren't made for torsional resistance.  They are 'good' in bending (with the beam used in its 'normal' orientation), OK as a column, but not very stiff/good in torsion.A 'closed' shape (with the bulk of the metal/material located at the 'farthest' points away from the centroid/axis-of-rotation) is generally better than an 'open' shape.  ie: pipe or tube is better than an I-beam or angle iron or C-channel for torsional resistance.For your existing beam, maybe adding some square/rectangular tube welded to the web of the I-beam can give you enough added torsional rigidity without complicating your carrier-to-flange arrangement.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Thank you for your comment and input.   I am leaning towards  using a rectangular tubing of maybe 3 x 5 with 3/16 or 1/4 inch walls with a 3/8 x 5.5 inch carrier plate welded to it.   I think this will increase the resistance to twisting under load and allow for a bit cleaner build.  I hope to stiffen this current unit without a whole sale change in mast?   As I have said, there are many units that use I beams and it works but I would like to upgrade if possible.  More pics when I get a chance.
Reply:Originally Posted by grayThank you for your comment and input.   I am leaning towards  using a rectangular tubing of maybe 3 x 5 with 3/16 or 1/4 inch walls with a 3/8 x 5.5 inch carrier plate welded to it.   I think this will increase the resistance to twisting under load and allow for a bit cleaner build.  I hope to stiffen this current unit without a whole sale change in mast?   As I have said, there are many units that use I beams and it works but I would like to upgrade if possible.  More pics when I get a chance.
Reply:practically, take a piece of tube and a piece if wide flange beam and try torquing them.  tack the both down and tack a lever on the end and give it a twist.  you will see immediately you could calculate "area moment of inertia" I think is the right term.  usually given as area^4    sort of related to square inches, but to more power by taking into account distances from center.  for example,   on square inch of materal in solid bar not as stiff as the same square inch of material in a tube, because it's distributed farther from the center. tube or pipe is WAY stiffer in torsion than equivalent weigh of any open shapes.  (my wild *** guess without calculating it is 10:1) stiffer by weight assuming roughly equivalent external dimensions and weight.say 4"x4" x 1/4" wall rectangle vs 4" wide flange of the same weight. here's a few courses if you can stomach it.   study up and good luck.  very difficult if you donthave the math background for it.  this would take me a couple days to relearn, or more.My brain fails me about here. https://engineering.purdue.edu/~ahva...sion_Guide.pdfther are two specific examples in here that you should be able to plug your numbers into, and it tells you where to get the numbers fromopen sectionshttp://www.colorado.edu/engineering/...AST.Lect08.pdfclosed sectionshttp://www.colorado.edu/engineering/...AST.Lect09.pdfhttp://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ar...ia-d_1328.htmlLast edited by dsergison; 11-21-2013 at 03:41 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by dsergisonpractically, take a piece of tube and a piece if wide flange beam and try torquing them.  tack the both down and tack a lever on the end and give it a twist.  you will see immediately you could calculate "area moment of inertia" I think is the right term.  usually given as area^4    sort of related to square inches, but to more power by taking into account distances from center.  for example,   on square inch of materal in solid bar not as stiff as the same square inch of material in a tube, because it's distributed farther from the center. tube or pipe is WAY stiffer in torsion than equivalent weigh of any open shapes.  (my wild *** guess without calculating it is 10:1) stiffer by weight assuming roughly equivalent external dimensions and weight.say 4"x4" x 1/4" wall rectangle vs 4" wide flange of the same weight. here's a few courses if you can stomach it.   study up and good luck.  very difficult if you donthave the math background for it.  this would take me a couple days to relearn, or more.My brain fails me about here. https://engineering.purdue.edu/~ahva...sion_Guide.pdfYes, you are correct.   I visited a number of engineering pages to get some "moment" information.   So many of these small rigs use I beam masts because they are simple but I guess the torque of my drive motor is about 30% greater than many others and mine has a taller mast, both causing more twist.In a future build I will use 3x6 box with a flat carrier welded to the narrow face.  To limit the twist in this unit I am welding web stiffeners into the mast.I will be posting a number of pics tomorrow showing the upgrades and transport system for others to critique  thanks for your inputther are two specific examples in here that you should be able to plug your numbers into, and it tells you where to get the numbers fromopen sectionshttp://www.colorado.edu/engineering/...AST.Lect08.pdfclosed sectionshttp://www.colorado.edu/engineering/...AST.Lect09.pdfhttp://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ar...ia-d_1328.html
Reply:I have attached three photos of the unit.one has my frame for the transport kit being installed.One is a pic of the complete unit.One shows the mast with my web connectors to stiffen the mast I beam.The axel is a 3500 pound and there is a pipe rack on the right side.
Reply:I'm (educated) guessing that did almost nothing at all to stiffen the beam?    did you test the torsional ridgidity before and after?   perhaps put a level on the beam and use a big torque wrench to see how much effort before and after it took to twist the beam a couple degrees?While in use I observed much of the twist was seen in the web motion and less in the thicker flanges.  I have tried to link the front and back flange with these braces.  I have not tested it yet as I did this late last night.  I expect only a modest improvement but that would be good and make it unnessasary to rebuild the whole mast. After I get a use out of it, I will report the outcome?  Next mast will be tube stock
Reply:Hello Tool Maker:I am putting a wrap on my R and D of the unit.   What I discovered is there are other units out there that use the same wieght and size I - beam and some that use rectangular stock.   My production unit will be rectangular stock with a flat plate guide for the head.   Also , an upgrade to a Gorman Rupp series 80 pump and 21 HP drive engine for it.   The final mods are in process---just need money)))   The swivel worked without a flaw and the hoist is great so it comes down to the drive motor, pipe handling and mast system.  All of these worked great---including the breakout system.  My original mud pump has great seals but lacks PSI  41 max while the new one will go to 97 with great flow.   2.5 X the cost(((((   I will post more pics when all done.  Discovered that Shop Fox drill press is not good---(bad chuck, pullies and belts)  ---General is the way to go   There got that frustration off my mind.   The tow kit I made bolted right on and pulled very clean.
Reply:I don't how much flex your getting but even on big rigs with boxed towers in gravel and cobbles I get some  twisting and whipping going on. the thing is on a box tower when it flexes it doesn't pull the drill stem out of plumb like it does on an I beam I have thought about building one of those little rigs for back yard work that can go through a 4' gate just didn't think the work was here to pay for it. how does that rig work in gravels?Last edited by idacal; 12-23-2013 at 03:36 PM.Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:Originally Posted by idacalI don't how much flex your getting but even on big rigs with boxed towers in gravel and cobbles I get some  twisting and whipping going on. the thing is on a box tower when it flexes it doesn't pull the drill stem out of plumb like it does on an I beam I have thought about building one of those little rigs for back yard work that can go through a 4' gate just didn't think the work was here to pay for it. how does that rig work in gravels?
Reply:I haven't done a lot of mud drilling on smaller wells. most of it out here is air with driven casing  if its under 10". On the mud holes I have been on you can tell usually tell because of the formation changes and the engineers involved will usually do a geophysical log on the well to double check I'm sure you know but on fluid drilling, up hole feet per minute, viscosity, and sand content in the mud  are the most important. 42 psi through mayhew junior and 2" should easily be 80 or 90 gpm  and should easily do in the 200 plus foot range of depth if you have the GPM and if the drill fluid is correct last year we drilled 10" diameter well to 1000' with a Gaso 6x10 piston pump and it was running 200 psi at 250gpm if your fluid is mixed right it doent take much pressure. the fluid is equal down the string and in the bore hole the only weight difference requiring psi is the restriction in the drill string and the is the amount of cuttings being carried up in the fluid to the pit.     one way to tell if you are in water is when when you hit static is that the well will take a fair amount of fluid all at once to equalize the formation pressureDo not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:Originally Posted by idacalI haven't done a lot of mud drilling on smaller wells. most of it out here is air with driven casing  if its under 10". On the mud holes I have been on you can tell usually tell because of the formation changes and the engineers involved will usually do a geophysical log on the well to double check I'm sure you know but on fluid drilling, up hole feet per minute, viscosity, and sand content in the mud  are the most important. 42 psi through mayhew junior and 2" should easily be 80 or 90 gpm  and should easily do in the 200 plus foot range of depth if you have the GPM and if the drill fluid is correct last year we drilled 10" diameter well to 1000' with a Gaso 6x10 piston pump and it was running 200 psi at 250gpm if your fluid is mixed right it doent take much pressure. the fluid is equal down the string and in the bore hole the only weight difference requiring psi is the restriction in the drill string and the is the amount of cuttings being carried up in the fluid to the pit.     one way to tell if you are in water is when when you hit static is that the well will take a fair amount of fluid all at once to equalize the formation pressure
Reply:I found my haiburton mud school book but it was in the basement when it flooded so I can't give you the recommended flows but I can give you  seat of the pants flows. but I don't know what kind of bentonite you are using. U need a extra high yield Wyoming bentonite to mix thats mixed properly, out here we have a sodium bentonite thats great for well seals but not for drilling as  it takes to much and makes the fluid too heavy Buy the right bentonite probably the number one most important thing and get your waters ph right before adding bentonite  You need a mud balance scale and a marsh funnel to be accurate there is all different recommendations but out here we need about 40 to 50 viscosity on the fluid for sands and some clays and about 8.5 pounds per gallon when you start, water is 8.3 PPG  i think haliburton recommended uphole velocity is like 40' to 60' per minute thats about 60 to 90  GPM in a 6" hole at 1.5 GPF we have done holes with as low as 15' per minute just have to watch your fluid better. once your muds mixed and before drilling get the pound per gallon weight and WRITE IT DOWN keep track of your contaminate content in your mud, any rig that rotates can drill and a monkey can run it. its the fluid that requires skill. weigh the fluid where it comes out of the hole if its weighing 8.7 PPG and then you measure at the pump intake and its back down to 8.5 that means your cuttings are dropping out in the pit if they are not dropping out, like you are drilling reactive clays you are carrying them back down through your pump and all that abrasion, to heavy and contaminated  fluid is also how you plant drill rod. you have to keep track of it and when it hits about 9PPG its time to dump your pit and start with fresh mud. they make polymers but they are expensive and require experience to make them work and its not worth it if your drilling with a 400 gallon pit its hard to post 10years experience in a paragraph but any other questions I will try to help your viscosity is also VERY important if you are running 45 vis and it droops to 38 you just hit a formation that has water all this stuff tells you whats going on downholeDo not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:Idacal,Good info. thanks!   Little beats expereince, almost nothing   If I follow this right-----basically1. Get started with the right PH, mud and SG2. Up hole flow of 50' per minute should keep cuttings coming up and a quick measure of this should help.3. Learn to use a Marsh funnel and keep it at right levels.4. Make certain your cuttings are dropping out in your pit.I have been using a "no hoe" settling pan of about 80 gal.   This has been an experiment but I think it can be made to work consistantly.   This saves from needing to hand or machine (hoe) dig pits?   I may double this by linking two tanks to allow more settling time?   They are shallow long cattle troughs with an end baffle.   I make a bore hole sleeve with a long 10' inspection trough leading from this flaring to the pans.   One can easily inspect what is coming up hole.   I am not sure the 80 gal is enough mud but feel that 160 should be.what are your thoughts on this system?   I have begun a final mod of the unit with an MCM 118 pump that is 4 times the pump of the Flowmax 8 and should allow for less drilling skill?   Maybe.I will check what bentonite I am using to be sure.Thanks again,Gray
Reply:sounds like you are on the right track your pits seem small but Im not sure. if your shooting for 50' uphole velocity that means 75 gpm in a 6" hole,so your pit is changed in just over a minute thats not a lot of settling time 2 tanks sounds better if its carrying substantial material back down the hole you have a problem, may have to slow down  I'm guessing you are using a venturi mixer on the betonite? also bigger pumps will just mean when you plant your more anchored kind of like giving a four wheel drive to a new driver and telling hime to figure it out  if you are in an area like a caving sand, high velocity will erode the bore hole and make velocity changes down hole, which is very very bad, it would need to be throttled back. In clays it would be nice, lower your mud weight and vis to almost water and raise your up hole velocity to carry the cuttings it all depends on were your drilling and what you are going through. bigger pumps are always nicer though if power is not an issue. but making up for less drilling skill I'm not sure, depends where your drilling Edit I just looked up the flow chart on the flowmax 8 your max psi with water is 32 at 75 gpm so its going to be less than that with mud. bigger would be nice but for me I would try it and see. I doubt your getting that much through the 1.25 you used at first your restrictions would be to high if your getting 40 to 70 GPM out of the hole it will work. measuring doesn't have to be complicated just stick a 5 gallon bucket under the dischargeLast edited by idacal; 12-27-2013 at 11:24 AM.Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.