biding a spiral staircase

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My friend is giving me a huge chance to bid on a 2 story spiral staircase. All on site and either steel or aluminum. I have to put a bid in on it for the owners but am lost. I have built them in wood but never in metal. I have no Idea what my labor hours would estimate. I was just trying to get a estimate from someone who does these. I really want this it could be a huge step for me and my business. My plan was to have the railing bent for me and everything else I will fab.Thanks ahead for the replies. I mostly do repair work now but used to build staircases and cabinets out of wood. I want to move into the fab work for gates staircases ect..
Reply:Originally Posted by alohacanaMy friend is giving me a huge chance to bid on a 2 story spiral staircase. All on site and either steel or aluminum. I have to put a bid in on it for the owners but am lost. I have built them in wood but never in metal. I have no Idea what my labor hours would estimate. I was just trying to get a estimate from someone who does these. I really want this it could be a huge step for me and my business. My plan was to have the railing bent for me and everything else I will fab.Thanks ahead for the replies. I mostly do repair work now but used to build staircases and cabinets out of wood. I want to move into the fab work for gates staircases ect..
Reply:The staircase build is pretty easy what you need to work out is the height of the risers so you end up the correct height at the top, and at the exitsPlus there are regulations that cover Spiral staircases, in terms of tread length, rising heights etc, make sure you know what they are
Reply:Yeah I have done all the math to code before I am just lost with predicting hours for the bid. I couldnt even find out what otheres are charging for these.
Reply:Originally Posted by alohacanaYeah I have done all the math to code before I am just lost with predicting hours for the bid. I couldnt even find out what otheres are charging for these.
Reply:You can eliminate some of the risk by having handrails and kickplates rolled by a custom bending shop.  These shops have computer programs that give them the radius and angle of the bend to get the right spiral.  They can spit out the price pretty quick.     I smell a rat... "Gee we would really like to give you this job and we know you are hungry and just give us a price and you can have the privileged of working for nothing."  A staircase of any sort is not a place to start when fabricating.  Would you think it wise for a guy who has done a couple of years building concrete forms to bid on a job making kitchen cabinets?
Reply:Building on site might present a few problems if your working around a finished or partly finished room.
Reply:I usually bid them at 5-6,500 for a single story depending on what the balusters are. Where in the world are you?
Reply:Fabricating spiral stairs is a "niche" type of business......In other words a specialty item that a shop does as 50% or more of it's workload !!!!!!! I've been in the misc. metals business for over 35+ years and when I have spiral stairs to bid I get a price from a company that specializes in them.......R.B. Wagner is one of them.........Get a price on the product and  add in your labor to erect plus 10% for your profit ($$$$$$$) good luck.......
Reply:This place sells kits and custom stuff.  You can price a basic metal stair kit and options.https://www.theironshop.com/https://www.theironshop.com/orderonline.aspx"USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:What I do is visualize the process and make sure my material take offs cover the game plan and waste. I then break my labor up into blocks or components.I total the sum and add markup, which varies depending on potential losses, assumed or known competition, risk factor and what my current workload is.  Do a site visit if you can to identify any issues and make sure you have an installation game plan. Be sure the existing structure is adequate for your mounting plans. I always leave an out by adding disclaimers (Ie; quote subject to unforeseen existing conditions if there are details you cannot know without starting such as beam/joist locations, sizing etc)    I also carry engineering as an optional extra unless it is to be included in the bid specs.Last edited by K6090; 03-15-2015 at 11:39 AM.
Reply:I am doing a site visit today so we will see. I know I can build it from scratch just dont think they will want to pay for it lol. They where looking at prefab stuff too but I have scetched out some fancier designs. Not thinking its going to happen at this point but we will see. I am on Maui. I am in that middle road where I have a few job offers but work so much I have to turn most down and am ready for a change in carreer but hant pullled the trigger yet. Thank for the responses. Its all onsite outdoors. generally I charge 100-130 for mobile work depending on the welding and job.
Reply:How much metal fabricating and welding experience do you have? I agree with lotechman about smelling a rat. Is this a new house or existing house? You're going to need a bunch of welding blankets if it has to be welded in the house. First thing to do is find out if it has to comply with structural welding/building codes and if you need to have the appropriate welding ticket. Do you need to have liability insurance? Does it need to be engineer approved? There's a lot of things to consider for a project like this that doesn't seem too difficult in the beginning. Also you can't take money up front unless you are bonded. Just watch "Catch a Contractor" to see the horror stories about people paying in advance. If you've never built one in steel, I think I'd reluctantly turn it down. If your friend isn't the owner, consider that the owners could be extremely nit picky. That's their right but most houses with spiral staircases aren't your basic 2 story house. The staircase is a highlight of the house so has to be perfect. If part of a rail isn't quite curved the same or a little too much was ground cleaning up a weld, will be like a cancer to the owner.Last edited by Welder Dave; 03-15-2015 at 01:42 PM.
Reply:Guessing how many many hours you will have in a project is always the hardest part, I have allot of trouble with it myself. I have seen large companies with vast experience miss this factor by 150%. All I can tell you is make your best guess, and add 15%-20%, don't bid too low trying to get the deal. Another one will come along, don't shortchange yourself.  They say it gets easier with experience, but I'm not so sure.Constant Current Weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by DavidbrownGuessing how many many hours you will have in a project is always the hardest part, I have allot of trouble with it myself. I have seen large companies with vast experience miss this factor by 150%. All I can tell you is make your best guess, and add 15%-20%, don't bid too low trying to get the deal. Another one will come along, don't shortchange yourself.  They say it gets easier with experience, but I'm not so sure.
Reply:I think the OP needs to feel out the customer after seeing if it needs an engineers approval. Telling the customer it will be in $5000 and up range might bring up a much smaller expected cost. A lot of people have grand ideas until they realize how much they cost.
Reply:Built one once, it had a 7' diameter and the center pole was 25'+-. It was made of stainless with wood steps.  I did the design work and farmed the fab to a friend Eric Who is a excellent artist/ blacksmith and a trusted business associate.  The welding and metal working skills required were way beyond mine. He did let me weld a couple joints and used my syncrowave along with his so he could have two going to speed the job up, it took days of tig welding.  The design can be complicated on a two story spiral, as you have 4 landing points and to meet code the stairs have to be a specific size and degree and its not always what you need.  The price was $30.000.00 + and a pick of its on my web site snyderstairs.com. its pick 42 in the gallery.  Its Eric welding them together after we put the two sections together. Sorry not up to posting pics yet, this is only like my 4th post. Hope this helps, PhilLast edited by Phil Snyder; 03-16-2015 at 12:07 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Phil SnyderBuilt one once, it had a 7' diameter and the center pole was 25'+-. It was made of stainless with wood steps.  I did the design work and farmed the fab to a friend Eric Who is a excellent artist/ blacksmith and a trusted business associate.  The welding and metal working skills required were way beyond mine. He did let me weld a couple joints and used my syncrowave along with his so he could have two going to speed the job up, it took days of tig welding.  The design can be complicated on a two story spiral, as you have 4 landing points and to meet code the stairs have to be a specific size and degree and its not always what you need.  The price was $30.000.00 + and a pick of its on my web site snyderstair.com. its pick 42 in the gallery.  Its Eric welding them together after we put the two sections together. Sorry not up to posting pics yet, this is only like my 4th post. Hope this helps, Phil
Reply:Last edited by Toggle Switch; 03-16-2015 at 12:10 AM.Miller 211 MIGThermal ARC 186 TIGHypertherm Powermax 30 Plasma
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI think you forgot an "s" at the end of your website name.
Reply:Well had a look at it its his house and its only a one story staircase.It would lead to alot of business I think down the line. It would be a great start to my fabrication portfolio but not sure if its will happen. After buying a new mig (dont eant to TIG everything) there wont be aot left over for me but it would be really fun and he knows there will be a learning curve for me. I got some thinking to do but we will see. BTW I do carry insurance since I do stainless and aluminum repair when not driving boats. I want to move away from boats and into Fab work so we will see. I did get a couple of Stainless gigs and maybe a few trailers so slowly but surly everything will work out but 70-80 hour weeks is killing me. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.
Reply:You have to understand that a staircase is structural. It might HAVE to be engineer approved and CAN'T even be welded with MIG. You need to look into this first. It's one of those jobs that might be more headaches than it's worth. Don't bid it low in hopes of getting future work because of it. It's a custom job so should get paid as such. I asked earlier but never got an answer, How much welding and fab experience do you have? This isn't a beginner type project.
Reply:alohacana Originally Posted by alohacanaMy friend is giving me a huge chance to bid on a 2 story spiral staircase. All on site and either steel or aluminum. I have to put a bid in on it for the owners but am lost. I have built them in wood - but never in metal.
Reply:Cannot imagine fabricating a spiral on site, then finishing / painting it.  It does not take much space to fabricate the stair if you do it in components form and sleeves.  I typically fabricate one the entire spiral in my shop then hoist it into position with a crane.  installation of the stair takes less than 1hr.  I have treads plasma cut, however I weld my risers on.  I don't like broke/braked treads,  diamond plate is dangerous enough, adding a raduis egde doesn't sit well with me.  All pre bent stuff will save much time though.If you had jigs and fixtures, then you could build it in less than a week.  Providing you are having the rail bend and treads fabricated.  Without jigs and fixures, then you might spend several days either building them or balancing parts plumbs. I only built one vertical, my first one.  All others have been built on a horizontal rotisserie. Then cleaning and painting.    I typically bid for 3 wks fab time in shop.  Always use the largest riser height possible.  6" diam.  posts are nice and stiff.  Noticeable difference over typical 4".    I cannot imagine 5 or 6 k being enough to fabricate it in the field.  Doing it on site will not save anything over shop built.  Cleaning and painting, what the client will notice, could bring you to your knees.  The client might be calling you back to take care of rust.   Are you doing digging and concrete?  Any lifts or scaffolding involved?  Good luck.  Plan well and make some money, then take pictures.  Photos look better when the job was profitable.
Reply:Well i dont think I can justify it for the price. Dang I hope something comes along later. I dont have any big pieces to showcase which makes it hard to get jobs on the stuff I am trying to get into. Thanks for all the great advice.Originally Posted by alohacanabut 70-80 hour weeks is killing me. .
Reply:The riser heights and tread widths is a mathematically easy part of the problem, and additionally easy to fabricate. The top bar is what used to kill me on the few that I have built. I formed the top bar by feeding it into a set of rolls while giving a gentle but steady twist the whole way through. It was all done by feel while constantly re-evaluating the fit-up. Fine tuning would come after a generally good fit-up was achieved. Time and labor.. In my experience it took much of both; I am sure that there is an easier way though. None the less, two stories tall? Is there a landing at the first level?-NicheLast edited by NicheFab; 03-16-2015 at 11:44 PM.