7018 vs 7018AC?

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Both types say you can run them AC on the box.  I can only run AC.  Why would you chose one over the other?
Reply:Seems as I remember reading somewhere 7018 AC has arc stabilizers in the flux. One of the guys I'm teaching how to weld brought over some 7018 AC, boy was it smooth on DCEP!Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:7018 has hard restarts. You need to bust the xcess flux off between restarts. Also, is it humid wherever your at. 7018 sucks hydrogen out of moisture in the air and some weldors say you need an oven at least 300 or 600F but then some weldors can dry thier rods when they strike an arc.BTW, I have an oven but dont use it because at $0.15/ KW, it ads up to $3/day or $90/month. Thats to much. Also, Ive noticed, when I strike an arc, it gets up to about 288F. Thats good enuf for non critical stuf.Last edited by Insaneride; 11-30-2013 at 09:33 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Insaneridethen some weldors can dry thier rods when they strike an arc.
Reply:Maybe, but AC stick and rain really shouldn't go together at all for obvious safety reasons..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by Insaneride7018 has hard restarts.
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArc.  I believe you were trying to say that "moisture" (not hydrogen alone) gets absorbed into the flux of 7018, thus effecting its performance drastically. .
Reply:Unless you soak them in water/dew/humidity?Last edited by Insaneride; 12-01-2013 at 01:09 AM.Reason: the Atmosphere
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideNo; I think I meant: a loh Hydrogen rod sucks Hydrogen outa the atmosphere and into the rod. The residual Oxygen is left to become Ozone I presume but neverthe les, IT does not become part of the rod. The Oh or Oxy is expelled during the -low Hydrogen consumption-. That is what I meant
Reply:I'm just a hobby guy, but I hate Lincoln 7018AC run on DCEP.  I can't see any puddle to slag differentiation.  What I've read is that they're designed to run on a higher OCV than the DC rod.  Never ran on AC, so can't comment on that.  When I had them mixed in the same can as Excalibur 7018, I couldn't understand how the puddle was intermittently disappearing while I was doing a project. Took me a while to figure it out, then the AC rod went in the garbage. YMMVTA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Lincoln makes a R series."Resistant". E7018 LH78RH It's what is in most of our welding shops.Linkage :  http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...4r-detail.aspxBubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:It's awfully expensive for you Fourth Worlders.  Yeah. That's for only 1/2 a kilo ! http://www.capris.cr/index.php?route...3060&cc=383060Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWMaybe, but AC stick and rain really shouldn't go together at all for obvious safety reasons.
Reply:My favourite 7018 is not "7018AC", but it does run great on AC.  In fact, I think I make my most aesthetically pleasing beads with these things on AC!http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-ca...olnElectric%29
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArc  What 7018 flux does do is it absorbs TWO hydrogen atoms and ONE oxygen atom which forms.....hmmmmmmmmm water!!!  (H2o).  When a "wet" 7018 rod is burning into steel (more specifically "high strength steel"), the moisture in the rod is introduced to the weld metal in the HAZ.  Hydrogen is now separated from oxygen and introduced into the grain structure of the alloy steel.  The hydrogen pockets get trapped and can expand, can also produce separate micro methane pockets, which all can cause micro fusions or "cracks."   In layman' terms, hydrogen is not solely pure hydrogen while it's still chemically bonded with an oxygen molecule. If it was, every lake, ocean, swimming pool, river, stream, fountain etc... Would be exploding as we speak!  The world would be like the sun, one big fireball by now wherever "water" was located.
Reply:Thanks!  I'll give them a try.
Reply:All 7018 works on AC  , the 7018 AC  are for low oc voltage welders all rod makers have them the largest bridge fabricator in the country uses them to tack as they are easy to restrike. So much for you guys thinking they are no good as they are doing D 1:5 bridge work with them.
Reply:1/8'' Lincoln 7018 AC rods are super easy to restrike.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideMaybee Im confused or maybee not but: Low hydrogen is just that. Its not low water rod or low Oxygen, rite? Hydrogen is reactive with most atoms and molecules because it has only one electron and that electron easily reacts with other atoms in that it readily joins the valence band. Most acids use hydrogen because the one electron wants to join the valence band in other materials. The hydrogen absorbed in 7018 is not liquid or gas but dehydrated hydrogen. Nobody uses wet 7018 except maybee CEP but thats to make his point. Is your 7018 wet or dry? This is debatable but thats my understanding of low hydrogen.BTW, a bastard file is good for cleaning 7018 for restarts like you said. Fire brick or a rock have also been mentioned and they work also. Please correct me if Im wrong but can you provide proof? Its been more than twenty years since I had college chemistry and Im having a senior moment finding my proof.
Reply:7018AC does indeed have arc stabilizers in the flux (CEP), it does restrike almost effortlessly, and it does a very good job "in position", but it's pretty bad at "out of position" welding.Lincoln has excellent slag differentiation, where other brands don't.  It 's helpful for those who are a little unsure about reading the puddle.  If you're using another brand it just takes a bit to get used to.  Don't rely on the cooling slag to tell you about the contour of the puddle, just concentrate on the face of the puddle and the immediate area.  AND DON'T TRY TO SLOW DOWN TO BUILD THE BEAD.  YOU'LL JUST CREATE A POROUS WELD.  AC RODS NEED TO PROGRESS SMOOTH AT A MEASURED PACE.  If you need a higher bead you have to go to a bigger rod, or build multiple passes.  In this respect it's unforgiving."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:for restarts just break the flux off with your glove... i dont have the time or patience to mess around with a file let alone a brick, unless your a "super welder" hank hill type
Reply:I looked for xamples of Hydrates (term?) but mostly found evidence of H2O in solid water not ice. WTF.The best xample of Hydrogen_in_solid form IS  Tetra_Hydra_Cannobinol_orTHC_active ingredient in marji___"The  molecular_formula of_THC isC21H30and Oh two for the effect. Tetra Hydra stands for thirty Hydrogens. Think about THAT if you ever light_up.Again:   Carbon21_Hydrogen30_Oxy2 = THC_euphoriaHow come all that Hydrogen doesnt xplode like a Hindenburgh!On a side note: A solid Hydrogen is used to inflate life boats in water solid form mixed in water?. Kinda like an alkaseltzerLast edited by Insaneride; 12-02-2013 at 07:40 PM.Reason: any time you light_up
Reply:Ok , that didnt make sense but; If im wrong okMy understanding, nothing is lost or gained. The single electron H fills the holes in the low H rod. The residue is the O. Single Os readily form with other Os  to become breathable O2 in the atmosphere. The H becomes part of the 7018 flux or Hydrogen imbretlmentHope that makes sense. Otherwise the flux becomes H2O+flux
Reply:On to the debate:Does 7018 absorb water or Hydrogen.  I agree that water can be a solid form not including ice (wierd).Last edited by Insaneride; 12-02-2013 at 07:45 PM.Reason: water is H2O
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideI looked for xamples of Hydrates (term?) but mostly found evidence of H2O in solid water not ice. WTF.The best xample of Hydrogen_in_solid form IS  Tetra_Hydra_Cannobinol_orTHC_active ingredient in marji___"The  molecular_formula of_THC isC21H30and Oh two for the effect. Tetra Hydra stands for thirty Hydrogens. Think about THAT if you ever light_up.Again:   Carbon21_Hydrogen30_Oxy2 = THC_euphoriaHow come all that Hydrogen doesnt xplode like a Hindenburgh!On a side note: A solid Hydrogen is used to inflate life boats in water solid form mixed in water?. Kinda like an alkaseltzerOriginally Posted by InsanerideOn to the debate:Does 7018 absorb water or Hydrogen.  I agree that water can be a solid form not including ice (wierd).
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DSo a person can fail a drug test and a weld test at the same time with damp welding rod,good to know.
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideI looked for xamples of Hydrates (term?) but mostly found evidence of H2O in solid water not ice. WTF.The best xample of Hydrogen_in_solid form IS  Tetra_Hydra_Cannobinol_orTHC_active ingredient in marji___"The  molecular_formula of_THC isC21H30and Oh two for the effect. Tetra Hydra stands for thirty Hydrogens. Think about THAT if you ever light_up.Again:   Carbon21_Hydrogen30_Oxy2 = THC_euphoriaHow come all that Hydrogen doesnt xplode like a Hindenburgh!On a side note: A solid Hydrogen is used to inflate life boats in water solid form mixed in water?. Kinda like an alkaseltzer
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveIt (the flux) absorbs water. Your theory questions would be better answered if you looked up how the hydrogen releases and ends up in the steel.Btw, I doubt there is a debate. The issue is well researched and is a settled matter (I believe) to the rod manufacturers.
Reply:Another xample of solid Hydrogens that wont blow up is sucrose (sugar)C12 H22 O11.  Some pharmeceuticles appear to be hi in Hydrogen but this is a welding web, not chemistry.
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideI found my answer here with molecular formulas:http://aws.org/wj/supplement/wj0907-273.pdf What this is saying is, Hydrogen is adsorped into the flux.  Using Oxygen in the flux(not from water) and bonded to other molecules, the Oxygen is released from the molecule to join Hydrogen and form water and reducing imbrittlement during the weld.
Reply:You should read the introduction again.   http://aws.org/wj/supplement/wj0907-273.pdfLast edited by ironrail; 12-03-2013 at 12:03 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by ironrailYou should read the introduction again.   http://aws.org/wj/supplement/wj0907-273.pdf
Reply:The whole rant is off topic.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersamm7018AC does indeed have arc stabilizers in the flux (CEP), it does restrike almost effortlessly, and it does a very good job "in position", but it's pretty bad at "out of position" welding.Lincoln has excellent slag differentiation, where other brands don't.  It 's helpful for those who are a little unsure about reading the puddle.  If you're using another brand it just takes a bit to get used to.  Don't rely on the cooling slag to tell you about the contour of the puddle, just concentrate on the face of the puddle and the immediate area.  AND DON'T TRY TO SLOW DOWN TO BUILD THE BEAD.  YOU'LL JUST CREATE A POROUS WELD.  AC RODS NEED TO PROGRESS SMOOTH AT A MEASURED PACE.  If you need a higher bead you have to go to a bigger rod, or build multiple passes.  In this respect it's unforgiving.
Reply:Originally Posted by ironrailThe whole rant is off topic.
Reply:Yes the flux chemistry is changed to reduce monatomic hydrogen. It does this by creating water using the oxygen added to the flux. See equation (3).  The CaCO3 is where the Oxy comes from. Equation (6) is removing Hydrogen similarly but with Flourine to create 2HF.  Where is the Oxy in that equation? Maybee it oxidizes the metal MDave, I dont need to BS anyone. This is what I beleive happens based on chemical equations.Show me a chemical eqution of what happens when 7018 absorbs H2O and I will consider.Last edited by Insaneride; 12-03-2013 at 12:25 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideYes the flux chemistry is changed to reduce monatomic hydrogen. It does this by creating water using the oxygen added to the flux. See equation (3).  The CaCO3 is where the Oxy comes from. Equation (6) is removing Hydrogen similarly but with Flourine to create 2HF.  Where is the Oxy in that equation? Maybee it oxidizes the metal MDave, I dont need to BS anyone. This is what I beleive happens based on chemical equations.Show me a chemical eqution of what happens when 7018 absorbs H2O and I will consider.
Reply:I didnt mean to bruise anyones ego but; Superarc trying to xplain to me how rivers/water would xplode(Hydrogen) or chemistry would be like me xplaining to ZAP how to TIG.  That may be drastic but , what if I was telling MDave how to use your AB-P when I never used one?Oxygen is not absorbed into the 7018 from the chemical equations THAT Ive run across this far and provided. Please show some evidence otherwise and I will subscribe if proven.You cant beleive everything you read or everything you hear and only half of what you see. Quote from MAC. He also told me, "its what you do in your TIME off that counts".
Reply:Oh Good God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read this http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...articleID=3785All ya gotta know is that the H we're worried about comes from moisture in the air, steel, and "wet" flux on the rod.  There's probably H in snot"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Well, y'all have got me totally cornfused now !  When I was young and dumb, I never paid attention to what the tin can said. I just opened one up, and put em in the rod oven. When I needed some, I grabbed a handfull and went to work. It didnt matter to me if I used one of the Lincoln generators, a Miller rectifier, or a Miller buzz box. They were all the same to me, and you couldnt tell which I used to weld with either.
Reply:Sand man, I think your answer was given in post #2. I mentioned keeping your 7018 dry in #3 but I forgot to mention: some weldors store their 7018 in vacuum packed storage. I beleive this works for keeping rod dry and the idea of using the vac from a gas engine sounds good but, I dont worry about it. I just try to mimic what  CEP showed in #4.I hope you didnt mind my hijacking your thread because I didnt. Also, Im sure glad you asked your question and got your answer/+ and I hope you got as much out of it as I did.BTW, hijacking sounds bad. Cant we say hitchhiking?
Reply:This thread went into a "death spiral".  Gave me a bad headache.
Reply:OK, so what I got is both can run on AC, both need to be dried or kept dry for anything critical.  7018 AC re-strikes easier but maybe not so easy to use 'out of position'.
Reply:Originally Posted by DetailerDaveWell, y'all have got me totally cornfused now !  When I was young and dumb, I never paid attention to what the tin can said. I just opened one up, and put em in the rod oven. When I needed some, I grabbed a handfull and went to work. It didnt matter to me if I used one of the Lincoln generators, a Miller rectifier, or a Miller buzz box. They were all the same to me, and you couldnt tell which I used to weld with either.
Reply:Originally Posted by PavinsteelmanAll 7018 works on AC  , the 7018 AC  are for low oc voltage welders all rod makers have them the largest bridge fabricator in the country uses them to tack as they are easy to restrike. So much for you guys thinking they are no good as they are doing D 1:5 bridge work with them.
Reply:Try a TM -500 or a Hollup we  had  a hundred of them on WW -2 work building LCM s 500 men n women at work rods up to 3/8 E 6010 / 6012 / 7016 / 7024 , big rods for the war no need for DC, AC works fine with baseball bats. People are wimps today with mig ,grab a 600 amp club and burn rod.