Spray Welding with C25

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Just bought a couple Optima Pulsers from a forum member here, and wanted to try it out! Too lazy to hook up the 90/10 so I left the 75/25 hooked up. Set the pulser for steel, .035 wire, and non-adaptive, whatever that means. Well I pulled the trigger, it was pretty loud, but I'm pretty sure it was spraying. I've never sprayed steel wire before, but I've done it plenty with aluminum wire and it looked just like that. Looked at the machine readout right after and it read something like 37 volts, but I think it said only around 130 amps. Does this make sense? Was this spraying, or just some kind of globular transfer?John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:It is close to spray, but not quite true spray. I use hot C25 at work all the time. Works great. For spray I think you need at least 85% argon..
Reply:You're in globular transfer. There are droplets forming, but not of a consistent size or rate. With respect to gas, 90/10 isn't going to get you into spray. You need at least 98% argon for true spray transfer.-Chris
Reply:I was taught you needed 90% AR to achieve true spray. I have heard the 85%. There is also a 92/08 and 95/05 AR/CO2."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:@ Mr Smith - you are misguided and technically inaccurate.  90/10 is commonly used for "true" spray.  98Ar/2Oxy is more "fluid", sure, but GUARANTEE you this:  90/10 is used in the industry by heavy hitters for axial spray transfer.  Have personally used 90/10 during training at Lincoln Electric and during projects.  It's the bees knees.To wit, Table 1 on p.9 :: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...L-50/c4200.pdfLast edited by ManoKai; 04-24-2015 at 07:02 PM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Hello Econdron, Whenever you are operating in "pulse" mode you will have a high current and a low current. Often the readouts on a power source will display the average of these two currents. Thus it is very possible to see some low numbers in the area of amperage as you have noticed. Being as how you are attempting to get to voltage/amperages that could be considered to be at a "spray" level, but at the same time there is a short-circuiting component to the pulse mode then it could be that you are at the higher voltage/amperage for such a short duration that the "globular" characteristics don't have enough time to form the large droplets that are characteristic of straight globular transfer. So you are seeing one of the possible benefits of pulse transfer. I saw the information that Chris posted about "spray" transfer from the Lincoln book, kind of surprising to see that listed in that way, unless the information is slightly out of context, spray transfer can be achieved with a minimum of 80% argon. Certainly the correct level of voltage is also required and the correct wirespeed (amperage). Enjoy your Optima, it'll just make you want to get some of the more advanced stuff here pretty soon. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldEnjoy your Optima, it'll just make you want to get some of the more advanced stuff here pretty soon. Best regards, Allan
Reply:I have used .035 at 25 V , 420 IPM using 90/8/2  steel mix gold ...and have run it higher than that ...need to run .045 wire really when you do 3/8 to 1/2 materialWhen i was told that tri gas was the bomb ......it's not really ...it's expensive and it's hotter than all getout You will know that quiet hissing sound when you hear it also you will need a shade 12 to 14 lens and a heat shield on your glove when you achieve axial spray transferthe brightness and heat are really incredible compared to short circuit arc mode ...but it has limited usesBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Hello again Econdron, although it may not seem this way now, the Optima is at the very beginning end of a pulse controller and was one of Miller's first attempts at providing pulse for addition to a number of their machines. If you take a look at the XMT 350 Mpa and matching Mpa feeders you will see how there have been drastic additions to capabilities relative to pulsing and other types of welding in that particular multi-process machine.To take it even a bit further, look at the Miller 352 Invision Mpa and it's matching feeders and you will see even more options and applications. In short there are a vast array of options for machines from Miller that cater to folks who can/could possibly benefit from the additional features available. I have only singled out some of the Miller equipment as I am most familiar with them. Lincoln, ESAB, Fronius, OTC Daihen, HTP, Kempi, and the list goes on for manufacturers who make equipment that is capable of some pretty amazing welding applications. Some of this equipment has the capability to feed and retract wire while the weld is being produced in order to prevent the "explosion" and resulting spatter of certain welding parameters. Others can electronically pinch the transfer across the arc to aid with reduction of spatter and better out of position welding with solid wires. Even smoke reduction can be influenced by the control of the arc by a power source and manufacturers have figured out how to effect reductions there in this manner. When we received a demo on the Miller Invision machine at our shop we were able to run a vertical stringer uphill on the edge of a piece of 10 GA. aluminum sheet with .047 wire. It was set to "profile pulse", I believe, and the resulting bead matched what you would see performed similarly with a GTAW machine. I didn't make it to attend a demonstration by OTC Daihen of their "AC" aluminum GMAW wire welding equipment, but if it matches in real life what I have seen in the literature, then that is something else too. Well anyhow, enjoy your new equipment and as to instructions on it's use: do you have the manual that can be downloaded from Miller for it? The manual actually has some pretty good explanations on how to use it and it also explains that there are many "ready to use" parameter choices based on alloy type, wire diameter, and shielding gas composition. Then you also have a "straight CV mig" choice and a customizable basic pulse program choice. If you can, just plan on taking some time to experiment and reason your way through how you can utilize it to provide enhanced welding choices for some of your welding challenges.Many of the choices that are considered to be "canned" are there because the welding engineers at whatever manufacturers R&D facilities have spent a great deal of time tweaking a lot of the controllable aspects of their machines to provide what they consider an optimimum approach to a particular application. Much of the time though these parameters/settings are fairly broad in their application and they allow additional options for customization for specific applications to make the performance even better. Best regards, AllanLast edited by aevald; 04-25-2015 at 01:55 AM.aevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello Econdron, Whenever you are operating in "pulse" mode you will have a high current and a low current. Often the readouts on a power source will display the average of these two currents. Thus it is very possible to see some low numbers in the area of amperage as you have noticed. Being as how you are attempting to get to voltage/amperages that could be considered to be at a "spray" level, but at the same time there is a short-circuiting component to the pulse mode then it could be that you are at the higher voltage/amperage for such a short duration that the "globular" characteristics don't have enough time to form the large droplets that are characteristic of straight globular transfer. So you are seeing one of the possible benefits of pulse transfer. I saw the information that Chris posted about "spray" transfer from the Lincoln book, kind of surprising to see that listed in that way, unless the information is slightly out of context, spray transfer can be achieved with a minimum of 80% argon. Certainly the correct level of voltage is also required and the correct wirespeed (amperage). Enjoy your Optima, it'll just make you want to get some of the more advanced stuff here pretty soon. Best regards, Allan
Reply:Originally Posted by Welder DaveI'm not sure that's from a Lincoln book. 92/8 is common gas for spray as well.
Reply:According to Ed at weldreality.com, it is definitely possible to spray with mild steel and C25 gas. It requires a high voltage between 32-36V with 0.045" wire, I would imagine with 0.035" and 37V this would definitely be doable, although I've never done it personally. Not sure what the necessary transition current is though. Check out the welding gas section on that site, he discusses it there.
Reply:Originally Posted by JieveAccording to Ed at weldreality.com, it is definitely possible to spray with mild steel and C25 gas. It requires a high voltage between 32-36V with 0.045" wire, I would imagine with 0.035" and 37V this would definitely be doable, although I've never done it personally. Not sure what the necessary transition current is though. Check out the welding gas section on that site, he discusses it there.