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Ok, A gentleman has approached me with the opportunity to put together a pro race car shop. There is a lot more to it but this is the welding end of it.I've got a lot of TIG time with the racer stuff so that's not new as well a lot of hood time production and job shop TIg. I am also a mech eng and toolmaker so chip making is not new to me. ( I can weld up my mistakes too haha) I regularly pass the weld tests. While there are lots of guys here I have deep respect for I don't have experience with some of the fancy stuff. I do have lots of time to test and try out this however. I'm not afraid to ask question and learn from others, that's why I'm here.I've used Syncrowave for most of this and have my own Lincoln.What I don't have is a lot of time with the latest tech TIG. I simply have not had the equipment available so the Syncrovave is what I am most familar with.He says get what ever I want as long as it is Miller (he has other Millers in his regular shop) as long as it can do any race car stuff that comes thru the door. Now On these cars there is nothing that a Sync 200 can't do. A 250 would do it easier. I doubt we would ever weld titianium as it requires vast certifications. Aluminum, 4130, stainless, mild steel, some copper, would be the common metals. I can't think of anything over 1/4 in in any metal. An aluminum or magnesium valve cover would be the toughest to weld of the non ferrous materials. Damaged aluminum oil pans are the toughest to get at so a WP 20 torch is what we use. Complete chassis are 4130 plus a ton of fabricated parts are the norm for this. Some parts can be pretty thin .019 ss and .030 alum for example so low power control is desirable.So the choice is between the Dynasty, Maxstar, and Syncrowave 200 or 250. Cordless pedal, water cooled, WP-20, and cart. up to 25 foot cables. single phase. Stick welding would not be done here so not an issue.How about a little help??? What would be the dream machine and accessories??Thanks
Reply:Bentwings,I'm an "old" Syncrowave 250 fan, but love the advanced features of the Dynasty 200 DX.Given the situation, you may want to look closely at the new Miller Dynasty 280 DX.Offers the output/duty cycle of the Sync 250, plus the advanced features of the Dynasty 200 DX.About the only thing it lacks compared to the Dynasty 350, is the independent amplitude adjustment and a little amps/duty cycle, which you wouldn't need for the work you're doing.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Sundown is right. I had the chance to demo the Dynasty 280, and it is really nice.There is already a waiting list for these. Call your best Miller LWS and have them get thier Miller regional rep to contact you. You could be one of the first to get one and they may showcase your shop. Who knows, you could be the next shop on the Discovery Channel.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Thanks guys. I have to check Dynasty availability locally. You woun't believe this. I just got a call and he already ordered a loaded Syncrowave. It will be here Tues. He said he already made arrangements so if I don't like it or want something different I can exchange it. I guess I have to be more carefull in what we discuss. haha I just suggested the thing over lunch last week. He has a way of making things happen regardless of the situation. If there is a limited supply of the Dynasty I can be assured that we will get one no matter what. He is picking up a new rolling chassis tomorrow and wants to get started on updates next week. Fortunately it will take a few days to get all the parts sorted and stored.Nothing like starting out fresh with a bare floor. I've never dealt with working like this so I have some adjusting to do.I'd appreciate anyone else kicking in on these choices of welding equipment.Thanks again.
Reply:Hey bentwings,Reading your OP, I believe you know what you are doing regarding TIG as to your level of experience as stated.From an 'ol-timer who's seen many operations get stung really bad, be sure to do some serious homework prior to engaging in any work.1) Since he dictates Miller, let him furnish it as you indicated. There is no reason you should have to sell your unit to please his "taste".2) You should seek the advice of a lawyer as to what legal ramifications may become evident if something goes awry. I would strongly recommend a contract between both parties with explicit details of your duties, his work specs., your insurance liability parameters, & who's responsibilities are who's. Your space(work area), your consumables, your electricity, & anything else you need to provide must be detailed as to your satisfaction of compensation. You should not be reluctant to ask a good hourly rate(min $65/hr) for your talent & knowledge to meet his standards & integrity of the work. Race cars can be "coffins" if a weld broke & structural integrity failed resulting in a serious injury or death. Be smart....do your homework!!!!! Seek legal advice.....I only offer this fodder because I know of (2) welding shop owners who lost everything with a lawsuit. One got out lucky with only $100K of suit, & the other lost everything he & his wife had, including their house/shop, & still owed $350K. CYOA!!!!!!!DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Denny,Thank you for insight and concern. Far above the norm. Not many even think about this.I feel totally naked. I think you have a direct line to my head. I've stayed out of the operation that spawned this one for every reason in the book. I've been the race and hotrod game since the late 50's so I've seen many of the situations noted. I'm very carefull who I do work for and contract specifically. I trust nothing when it come to this stuff. While I don't have all the answers I never bet on the unknown.....don't bet on anything I don't already know I can win , I ask a lot of questions. I already am dealing on the legal side. Very complicated. Well aware of crash situations. I've already discussed shop safety and personell qualifications specifically who is permited to operate the equipment. Who is even permitted in the shop. The standards are very tough. I don't tolerate any horseplay or safety violations in the shop and have made that quite clear. Once everything is in place he will take over and run the show. I will remain as a consultant. My position will be to stay on top of technology in the race area and take care of the computer data generated by the racer. Finally getting paid to do what I enjoy.
Reply:Hey b-w,I misinterpreted your OP thinking he was asking you to use "your" shop for his work instead of he starting another shop for you to direct the operations. My bad. Your use of the English language indicated your intelligence level & thought comprehension as to getting involved in such an operation. I just felt a wee nudge investigating the legal aspects would be a reinforcement of CYOA. You are wise......it will serve you well. Good luck....hope it evolves into a fruitful endeavor for you......DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Lawyers suck. If the man was paying for it, I'd personally go Dynasty 700. My dream machine.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Hey drf,I agree that lawyers definitely "suck" as you project, although, a necessity when any evil may develop in your life/career. Just the way it is.Now, as far as your "dream machine", the type of work described wouldn't necessarily dictate that particular unit. It's quite simple to save enough to buy one, or go into debt to the tune of $16K & go get it. Why piddle in your dreams??????DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Well I went over today and saw the temporary shop and new chassis and related parts. Pretty nice, top of the line. I like looking over this equipment and seeing how the big time builders construct and weld. I use this as a guide for myself as a competition.....Can I weld as well as they do?? How about engineering and analysis of the forces on these cars.?? They weld very well in most places but I see the same problems I face in the radical out of position and tight quarters. I took a couple weld samples along that I purposely made laying on my back on a creeper working the pedal with a knee. Mine don't look any different than theirs so I feel comfortable. The main thing is that the welds must not fail up to the load limit. Fortunately I have experience in the structrual and FEA testing and have software to work with. We had a nice discussion about shop safety limiting access to the area especially untill the new building is done. I also have 3 fuel tanks, 3 dry sump tanks to design and build with substantial "pocket" money supplied. These will be a fun part for me and with a new welder to work with. I'm sure I'll be asking some questions as I explore features that I have not had opportunity to work with. There is a lot more to this but I'm just trying to project the welding aspect here. I really appreciate the help and comments.Please forgive the spelling, typing and usage errors. My wife hates it when I "talk shop" and even worse when I "write shop".
Reply:Hey b-w,Sounds like you're off to a promising start & hopefully you & the "management" team can meld into a single entity of solutions & creations that will benefit everyone involved, especially the driver & those around him/her on the track.We have some superb talent here on the forum, so don't hesitate to pose a query & pics/diagrams for some input. We looooove puzzles.....BTW, you grammar usage is quite "up-to-snuff".....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:BW, good luck with your new endeavor. I wish you well. I agree that having a lawyer involved in the start is a wise move. With that said, I have been in the racing world for twenty years, and almost all parts come with the understanding (usually expressed in the accompanying paperwork) that the user acknowledges that race parts are subjected to abuse, and that they can fail with serious results. I would think that there is some fairly common stuff that the attorney can use in this direction.
Reply:Well, we got the new TIG welder today. Syncrowave 250 DX..loaded. HW20 water cooled torch, 25 foot cables, wireless remote, full compliment of cups, collet bodies and holders, Tan, red and green tungstens, alum and steel rod, water cooler with coolant installed, cart, 2 bottles argon and 2 flow meters. 25 foor cord. Missing are the gas lens parts and pulser. Our area is wired for 3 phase so the elecrician is coming over in the morning to install the plug make sure the machine is wired correctly. The weld co rep is coming over with gas lens and the pulser board and will install it for us. It looks like and old friend. hahaI can't wait to try it out.
Reply:Careful bro. An offer that good usually is followed by the guy wanting you to sit on his lap or something. Whatever you do, don't let him talk you into going down in his basement. Scary movies and porno movies start like that.Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:I just thought I'd bump this again. I should probably leave this out as it is not welding related but for the guys starting shops or running shops it may be of some value.The @#$% electrician still has not showed up. One of the truck shop guys said he knows electricity and said he could do it. I asked him if he knew 3 phase and he said the box that the air compressor is on is only single phase. I went over and opened it up and then showed him the AC and pointed to the 3ph hook up. (part of knowing the bet before casting haha) He didn't quite know what to say so I said we'll wait for the electrician..thank you. Later I heard that I'm now a "smart @#$ engineer". Anyway I went thru the boxes and found that I only got a few samples of rod and tungstens and some other items instead of what I had asked for plus the wireless pedal was missing as was the double regulator. I called the weld supply and got everything delivered and installed yesterday....week late. A fact that I impressed on the supplier. I sure wish I could run a business that made money and I could just tell people I'll take care of things when the sun shines and it's not raining..Aren't startup shops fun?? Good thing I have mellowed out now that I'm retired. In my younger days I would have sent the whole works back and got it from the weld shop I deal with since I had that option. He was just crying to get us into a Dynasty. We did get everything ordered and on the way that is needed to update the racer plus some shop equipment and benches. The race shop will be finally isolated from the truck shop Monday so we will be able to keep the truck drivers out. The new building won't get started untill spring as all the permits have to go to the county and it just takes time. I just talked to the bossman and he about came unglued over the electrician. I told him to just get someone else but make sure they are a real electrician and get the job tagged properly. As for the weld supplier, well he is on shakey ground as he has done this before and the BM is not happy about it. I'm choosing to let this simmer for a while and we'll have more discussions later. Like Dirty Harry says"..a guy just has to know his limits...",so it will shake out as we go.
Reply:Bump again.We are well under way with the new car. we should have the new body mounted and "tinned" as we say in 30 days. About 30 days less than the "pro shop" hahaThe new Syncrowave is really smooth. After all the time I've put on one of these I never had a brand new one with all the features. I have to admit that I'm new to some of them.The wireless foot pedal is just fantastic. It's rate or sensitivity is different than the standard foot pedal but that only takes a few minutes to get used to. It does take quite a push to get it started however and when doing something very small/thin can be a bit problem. Now for the pulse. I've explored all the settings practicing and in process welding. Keep in mind that I do very little "on the bench" welding. Most of it is laying on the floor or creeper or standing on a ladder and operating the pedal with something other than foot.The pulse woks very well for less than perfect fit...it just wiggles the puddle untill it bridges the small gaps and bam, it works great. Now the question......I have some .040 3003 aluminum with far from perfect fit. Welded these angle pieces look like pretzles gone bad. My Lincoln 175 welded these quite well and actually were pretty easy. They are 5-6 feet long 2 x 2 .040 strips welded to some kind of angle. Both sides of the corners must be welded then the outside is ground smooth. The inside of the corner is a filit and welded overhead sitting on a rollaround stool I tried the pulse starting at 50 amps, 1/16 ceriated electrodes, 4043 and 5356 1/16 filler, 40 low and 85 hi with pulse rate from .25 to max. Balance on 2. I don't really see any pules at all. I tried all over the place and got no real changes. The problem is that I don't see the pulse like I do with steel. The balance definitely makes a difference especially on the outside corners. 2 seems best. Test parts of .060 material show very nice welds and really the actual part is not bad, it is just that I expected better with these new feature. I even did a sample with my Lincoln and I couldn't really tell the difference.Is there some kind of lower limit that the pulse does not operate at.?? I've tried just switching it off and welding for a bit then turn it back on but I see little if no difference and it still is welding ok. On thicker material it is great, especially on aluminum. Welding 4130 steel is nice. It is easy to keep a cool weld on thin tube so it doesn't get burned. Welds have nice color almost like stainless steel.I also welded some .018 stainless last week without the pulse. It went fine.....difficult as usual but decent welds. I wish I could post some pictures but I'm stuck at present.I need some help with the pulse. Last edited by bentwings; 02-22-2012 at 09:57 PM.
Reply:Not a pro but...No pulse on aluminum. It's such a great conductor of heat that you don't want to limit your input. Less than perfect fit up on aluminum with no backing is a major PITA. You can take it slow and build up both edges with filler and then fill the gap if you want to.I'm sure others will disagree, but in my (limited) experience with thin Aluminum, the pulse does nothing but take longer to get a puddle going. Gotta use the pedal to prevent the bead from washing out with or without it.Last edited by Drf255; 02-23-2012 at 05:14 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255Not a pro but...No pulse on aluminum. It's such a great conductor of heat that you don't want to limit your input. Less than perfect fit up on aluminum with no backing is a major PITA. You can take it slow and build up both edges with filler and then fill the gap if you want to.I'm sure others will disagree, but in my (limited) experience with thin Aluminum, the pulse does nothing but take longer to get a puddle going. Gotta use the pedal to prevent the bead from washing out with or without it.
Reply:bentwings,Second/third the pulse/aluminum comments. I've found pulse to be almost useless with aluminum. Where the pulse really helps is with stainless steel.The comment that "jumped out" was your setting the balance to 2. Not good at all. At a setting of 2 on the Syncrowave 250, you're putting way too much heat into the tungsten and not enough heat into the work. I'd recommend a balance setting (on new material) of between 7.5 and 8.5. You don't need all the "cleaning effect" that a balance setting of 2 will give you.Frankly, and not trying to cast stones, but for an "experienced tigger" your approach to the task at hand seems a little off base. Unfamilar processes should be developed/refined on the bench before you use them on the actual part.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:To me this is one place I would pulse aluminumI will use a "slow" pulse on long overhead runs. May not be in the book, but I'd turn up the amps just a bit more than normal I would spread your high to low out. I crank up the high a bit and put the background at like 10% with slow pulse or whatever your comfy travel speed allows. I'd set so you can just pin the pedal or switch until the close to the end.I wouldn't use the 5356 rod on 3003. Use a g321 or al1100 or 4043.Just my 1.5 cents. Also I use "fast" pulse on extremely thin aluminum. Otherwise I don't use it often on the bench unless I have a sugar load of the same long beads then sometimes I may pulse Al.HammerFile Big Hammer------------------------------Here, let me Google that for you...
Reply:Thanks for the replys. I made another "pretzel" today. This time I did it without the pulse. These are really flimsy so they have to be assembled ( tacked) inside the fiberglas body. The body is only 1/16 to 3/32" thick so excess heat will char a hole in it pretty quickly. I have some .010deoxidized copper strip that I use for backup which works well. I also use some formed aluminum angles that I bend to fit as I go. It's all held together with Cleco fasteners about every 4 inches. It still warps badly as soon as you hit it with the torch. Tacks have to be hot and quick. Even so I still have to reheat and tap the strips together after I take the pretzel out of the body. This time I clamped the thing to a piece of 3/8 flat stock in a few places so it was more rigid.. It welded very nicely even with s few gaps in the fit. Only one side is more or less flat so it is like welding on a minature roller coaster rail.So I learned something today. leave the pulse alone on this project for now. I did try adjusting the balance.....and settled on about 6 after reading the post above. I need to try this some more on this thin aluminum.... the cleaned zone is not important on these as they get epoxied into the body and are pretty well covered. I have 2 more of these things to make so I'll have plenty of practice.For these I use 4043 although I have made them with 5356. 4043 is easier to control. all the rest of the aluminum welding on the car has to be 5356 as the parts get color anodized.Sundown...I agree that spending some time practicing with new features before putting them into the process is a good idea. I can assure you tha I have already spent a good deal of time flogging these in a step by step manner but not with this thin material. My own welder does these very nicely so I think it is a matter of getting more familiar with the new machine, its features and fine tuning my technique. Practice, practice practice.thanks agin.
Reply:Originally Posted by bentwingsOk, A gentleman has approached me with the opportunity to put together a pro race car shop. There is a lot more to it but this is the welding end of it.I've got a lot of TIG time with the racer stuff so that's not new as well a lot of hood time production and job shop TIg. I am also a mech eng and toolmaker so chip making is not new to me. ( I can weld up my mistakes too haha) I regularly pass the weld tests. While there are lots of guys here I have deep respect for I don't have experience with some of the fancy stuff. I do have lots of time to test and try out this however. I'm not afraid to ask question and learn from others, that's why I'm here.I've used Syncrowave for most of this and have my own Lincoln.What I don't have is a lot of time with the latest tech TIG. I simply have not had the equipment available so the Syncrovave is what I am most familar with.He says get what ever I want as long as it is Miller (he has other Millers in his regular shop) as long as it can do any race car stuff that comes thru the door. Now On these cars there is nothing that a Sync 200 can't do. A 250 would do it easier. I doubt we would ever weld titianium as it requires vast certifications. Aluminum, 4130, stainless, mild steel, some copper, would be the common metals. I can't think of anything over 1/4 in in any metal. An aluminum or magnesium valve cover would be the toughest to weld of the non ferrous materials. Damaged aluminum oil pans are the toughest to get at so a WP 20 torch is what we use. Complete chassis are 4130 plus a ton of fabricated parts are the norm for this. Some parts can be pretty thin .019 ss and .030 alum for example so low power control is desirable.So the choice is between the Dynasty, Maxstar, and Syncrowave 200 or 250. Cordless pedal, water cooled, WP-20, and cart. up to 25 foot cables. single phase. Stick welding would not be done here so not an issue.How about a little help??? What would be the dream machine and accessories??Thanks
Reply:I too thought a Dynasty would be great even though I have not had experience with some of the advanced features. However I happened to be off gathering up some hotrod parts when the casting of votes came and apparently the powers that be were talked into a fully loaded Syncrowave 250. It's is a great machine however and it's parked in my own work corner with a hand off sign on it.I noted above some questions working with it on some really thin aluminum and today I got to got to the other side and weld some 3/8 aluminum. The co has a fleet of cattle trucks and one came in with a ramp of some sort all bent, twisted and broken. I guess cows are pretty brutal when they find out they are on their final trip.Not only was this thing all bent and broken but it looked like it had been submerged in the manure pile for some time. The truck shop guys cleaned it well enough so you could tell it was aluminum but that was about it. After a botched weld job with the aluminum spool gun they came and asked if I could help out as they had burned up all the spool wire and needed to get the truck on the road. I have a nice set of carbide cutters for aluminum so I growled out the mess they had made with the spool gun and got into the main body of the ramp. I cleaned it the best I could. You would not believe the stink acetone and manure makes. haha Add a lot of weld heat and you would think you had landed on one of the gas planets. Well anyway the SW came thru and I managed to make some decent welds for them. Fortunately I had some bigger electrodes. Never though I'd ever use them. i used about 5 pounds of wire.I called my wife on the way home and told her to have the washer ready for my clothes. Nice way to end a Friday at the hotrod shop.
Reply:Denny,If you don't mind me asking, what caused the lawsuit for these two welding shops to lose everything? Poor welds that caused injury or death? Were they incorporated or under an LLC to protect them personnally? That would be really good information to know. I'm going to start my own fab shop in my garage under an LLC so I am also interested on protecting all of my assets in case something goes south. ThanksTodd
Reply:^ Old thread, and your question is best left to a private message. Good luck with your query.-AaronJet 17.5" Drill Press1942 South Bend 16x84 Lathe1980s Miller 320A / BP --- 2013 Power Mig 2562012 Jet 7x12 Horizontal BandsawVictor O/A Setup |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:36:51