Is it new? Opinions please!

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Here's a story for ya. As some of you might know I ordered a new milling machine. The company in Ontario I dealt with has been in business for 50 years this year. The mill I ordered was according to them and the paper work they faxed us was new. I also ordered the mill with all power feeds including power draw bar and all was to be installed before shipping the mill. Well yesterday it showed up on the truck. As soon as I removed the plastic tarp I noticed metal cuttings over the bed and some on the rest of the machine. I noticed some damage in the form of chips and small spider cracks in various places. One of the power feeds weren't even on the machine and parts that you see in the picture were found on the bed of the truck under the tarp. The power feed wasn't there. Before we off loaded the mill we called the salesman and he said that the machine was only used a few times ( to me this is still a used mill) The reason one power feed wasn't on it was because they had to order a longer shaft to install the power feed on the knee and the wrong shaft showed up three times so they decided to ship it out anyway (Remember. I said all items to be installed before shipping)  Anyway to make a long story short I refused to remove it from the truck and the local dealer had it shipped to there warehouse 80 Km's away.  Now I need to figure out IF I even want this mill (not paid for yet, Thank God) or send it back and look for another. Here's the question. What would you do? Attached ImagesMiller 302 Trailblazer/Custom TrailerMillermatic 350P/Spool gunMillermatic 252Miller Spectrum 875Miller Dynasty200DxHypertherm Powermax 85Tracker CNC 4X8 Pro Table (Down Draft)Visit us @ www.specialtyrepairscustommods.com
Reply:More pics. Attached ImagesMiller 302 Trailblazer/Custom TrailerMillermatic 350P/Spool gunMillermatic 252Miller Spectrum 875Miller Dynasty200DxHypertherm Powermax 85Tracker CNC 4X8 Pro Table (Down Draft)Visit us @ www.specialtyrepairscustommods.com
Reply:Last one. Attached ImagesMiller 302 Trailblazer/Custom TrailerMillermatic 350P/Spool gunMillermatic 252Miller Spectrum 875Miller Dynasty200DxHypertherm Powermax 85Tracker CNC 4X8 Pro Table (Down Draft)Visit us @ www.specialtyrepairscustommods.com
Reply:If you have a purchase order specifying exactly how the machine is to be set up and it doesn't match those specs, you were right to turn it away, IMO.Verbal assurances from the salesman that it will be made right are worth nothing.If the mill had been under power in their showroom, the chips are easily explained, and the mill should have been discounted, as a demo machine, accordingly.The chips and cracks are another matter. Looks like there was some rough handling being done.What brand is the mill?Rex
Reply:Originally Posted by rode2rouenIf you have a purchase order specifying exactly how the machine is to be set up and it doesn't match those specs, you were right to turn it away, IMO.Verbal assurances from the salesman that it will be made right are worth nothing.If the mill had been under power in their showroom, the chips are easily explained, and the mill should have been discounted, as a demo machine, accordingly.The chips and cracks are another matter. Looks like there was some rough handling being done.What brand is the mill?Rex
Reply:Hey 4shorts,You ask what what we would do....hmmmmm. I would surmise that anyone who has any kind of knowledge & usage of machining equipment would tell you to call the company that shipped you that piece of junk & tell them to SHOVE IT!  That unit needs to go to the scrapyard with all the cracks in it. They must feel that you are blind & stupid not to see the damage on that mill......duuuhhhh!  Hey, they may try to tell you maybe it fell off the truck enroute to you & was perfect when loaded......DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:JUNK...buy a bridgeport...even used they go for ever and parts are every where. that mill looks like it has some structure issues..even for a discount it will be a problem till you scrap it..
Reply:do not under any circumstances accept this machine....unless they give it to you for 50$!i can not believe that a company with 50 years of business under there belt thought they could pull the blinds over your eyes and to think that you are stupid enough to accept this piece of crap.i know times are tuff out there these days but c'mon, what were they thinking.not sure if i would continue to deal with them unless they make the situation right and you can hold this over their heads for the rest of time and get better service in the future....thats your decision.if you want i can get a hold of my cousin and ask him who he deals with for his machinery. he owns a small milling shop in Hamilton Ontario. he buys new and used machines. the last one he got was from the states somewhere, used but in great condition for a good price.just let me know and i'll ask. i talk with him and his family pretty much on a daily basis.
Reply:Hey 4shorts, I would stay away form it like many have said here. If this is the type on product they send you, what will their service be like when you have problems. The Rock is a long way from Ont. I looked on kijiji.ca and found a couple decent looking unit in Halifax. Check it out as it might be worth looking at. I don't know much about Mills other than I want one, but I am in Halifax often and would be willing to take a look at it and get some close pictures of it if you need. Just let me know.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:a simple lesson i've learned..a scumbag is a scumbag..when you tell a scumbag that he is a scumbag he will assure you its not so.. dont deal with scumbags.
Reply:From the pics, it looks like the trucker tied the machine down using a sling across the baseplate.  Then, everytime he hit a bump the weight of the upper part of the mill (and that's a lot of weight) was flexing the table pedestal and column.  I'll bet that's the cause of the cracks.While this may not have cracked any metal (we'll never know) it did strech the bolts and crack the bondo....yes, bondo...they use lots of it on these things.  Also, the Asian paint jobs are notoriously sub-standard...lots of chipping and flaking.What really sucks is the swarf on the table.  The mill was obviously a demonstrator sitting on the vendors floor.  He just fork-lifted it onto the trailer and wrapped some plastic around it.  I'll bet that when that mill arrived in the US it was completely crated.I have an Asian mill very similar to this but mine was completely crated....plywood and 1x4 w/ 4x4 skids.  The crate was straped to the bed of the trailer...not the mill itself.  It arrived pretty much undamaged.  Did have one handle that was kaput but it looked like it was that way from the factory.Good luck with this one and I hope everything turns out in your favor.  When the legal dust settles, please let us know the vendor's name and the make and model of the mill.Miller 211 w/ spool gunMiller Dynasty 200DXLongevity 60i IGBT plasmaO/A w/ crappy chinese torch/gaugesSouth Bend 10K latheGrizzly 4029 10x54 millGrizzly 7x12 hor bandsawangle grnders, bench grnder, bench belt sndr7.5 hp 80gal cmprsor
Reply:That's some demo if that's all that it was! Run, don't walk, away. They are shyster's! You didn't get close to what you payed for.  Glad you didn't prepay for it!!!200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:I wouldn't be surprised if that baseplate cracks clean off when they attempt to remove it from the trailer.
Reply:they lied to you once thell do it again
Reply:Every fella I know who knows about machinist tools.. says one thing when I saw mill.  ~Bridgeport~  Must be a good reason?  4Shorts U gotta be one of the most talented restorers I've ever seen... we'll help u look and scrounge for an older sound Bridgeport and then U can bedazzle us with its rebuild to a  "starship". It's a thought. enjoy, Bretthis one, either way should be returned at their expense.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Hi everyone. First of all let me say a BIG thank you for all your responses. You wouldn't believe how much it helped. I wrote an email to the people involved and attached a link to this thread. Shortly after I received a phone call from the person who sold the mill and said that some of it was a misunderstanding and that they want to make it right. The mill was used by them to make brackets I was told.  He said that It should have been mentioned to me that it was used as a demo but someone dropped the ball. To give me the best possible price on the mill they sent that one to me without telling me (they said they meant to) as I said at the start of the thread the paper work said "One New milling Machine". The man apologized no less than four times during our long conversation and it basically boils down to this.A "NEW" mill will arrive at there warehouse tomorrow. It will be fitted out with all the options I had asked for and personally inspected by the appropriate people and then shipped out to me as a "NEW" mill with "ALL" options "INSTALLED" at no extra cost to me personally. I will check with the salesman tomorrow and ask if it can be shipped the way BDT mentioned in reply #12 and I thank him for the advise. I know some will say I should deal with these guys and maybe I'm crazy doing so but I believe everyone should have an opportunity to redeem themselves and to have a company in business for 50 years I can't see this happening on a regular basis. I still have my money and it's there turn to make it right. If it works out I know I will promote there company. if it don't well I will advise people not to buy from them. I think that's fair enough.A special thanks to FabForce1 and to  jamlit  for personally wanting to help me out. If you guys get over here on the rock I'm buying you a beer and that's a promise. yorkiepap, weldbead . You guys cracked me up. Needed that laugh and there's allot of truth to what you've said. Thanks to all the others as well. I know it takes time to post this stuff and your advise was well considered. I'll be updated this thread no matter what the outcome. It will be interesting to see how it ends up. All I can say is that If it shows up again like it did this time I won't take it off the truck. Lets see what chapter two brings.Last edited by 4shorts; 04-27-2010 at 04:41 PM.Miller 302 Trailblazer/Custom TrailerMillermatic 350P/Spool gunMillermatic 252Miller Spectrum 875Miller Dynasty200DxHypertherm Powermax 85Tracker CNC 4X8 Pro Table (Down Draft)Visit us @ www.specialtyrepairscustommods.com
Reply:I hope it all works out for you. I will be over someday and I will be sure to drop in, thanks for the inviteMiller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:4Shorts, a lot of the foreign machines are covered with Bondo and then painted, to give a better-looking surface; the one large chip near a corner shows the thickness of the material. I suspect that the cracks  in the base are only in the coating, but would also assume the machine suffered some decent stress to cause them. Anyway, is this your first milling machine?
Reply:I glad you got it handled. My suggestion would have been to go higher up in the company. It says something to be in business for 50 years. You had a less than honest salesperson. I have had good results by copying any emails to many people in the same company so that a person with some power will see that my needs are met. I'll bet that salesperson go an a$$ chewing at the very least.Last edited by WHughes; 04-27-2010 at 05:37 PM.Reason: why cant I say a$$ on welding web?UA Local 598
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLionEvery fella I know who knows about machinist tools.. says one thing when I saw mill.  ~Bridgeport~  Must be a good reason?  4Shorts U gotta be one of the most talented restorers I've ever seen... we'll help u look and scrounge for an older sound Bridgeport and then U can bedazzle us with its rebuild to a  "starship". It's a thought. enjoy, Bretthis one, either way should be returned at their expense.
Reply:About the cracks.My small import mill is showing cracks in quite a few places.  It's not the casting, it's the bondoYes...........BONDOThe import stuff isn't well known for the quality of the castings, and a lot of the machines have "body work" done prior to painting.There's a good chance that the new "new" machine will show surface cracks after use, and especially after exposure to coolant.It's a wonderful world huh?"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesI glad you got it handled. My suggestion would have been to go higher up in the company. It says something to be in business for 50 years. You had a less than honest salesperson. I have had good results by copying any emails to many people in the same company so that a person with some power will see that my needs are met. I'll bet that salesperson go an a$$ chewing at the very least.
Reply:Oh crap, I didn't read Oldiron's post.  It's already been covered"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammOh crap, I didn't read Oldiron's post.  It's already been covered
Reply:Error on the seller and/or the freight company in the packing/crating (or lack there of) and the tie-downs.Just because it is big and heavy doesn't mean that it can just be lashed down on the machine itself.  And that single strap across the machine base could NEVER be made tight enough to keep the machine top from rocking and beating itself into the 'maybe it once was a precision machine but it certainly no longer is' category.Error on the seller for trying to pass off used/demo equipment as brand new.Error on the seller for not selling all the items that were supposed to be in the sale.+1 to the buyer for refusing the attempted shipment of the crap and incomplete order.Let us know how it all turns out.  Maybe it -was- an 'honest' mistake.  But it really seems like too many things were wrong there to be an honest mistake.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...4shorts,Sounds like things are working out for you.  I know the frustration of long distance machinery purchases.  My mill, although pretty much unscathed on arrival, was 2 1/2 months late arriving.  Dealing with sales/shipping for weeks on end was a royal PITA.The pics don't show it real clear but does the mill have a DRO.  I think I saw one of the encoders in the pics.  I hope it is but if not I would highly recommend getting one.  I retrofitted mine with one (Newall DP900) and it makes a huge difference in set-up time and machining operations.  The Newall is pretty bullit proof....uses stainless steel balls in a stainless steel tube....doesn't break like the glass encoders and oil and dirt don't matter...it's all sealed up.  Has lots of canned programs such as bolt holes, radius, linear hole patterns, tool libraries, etc.Also, I mentioned the Bondo but I wouldn't get too concerned about it.  I've heard that US mfg machines have used it too.  Now if you want to see cheap, when you get the mill back, take a flashlight and look up inside the knee (up where the z-axis lead screw connects to the knee.  I'll bet you find lots of really crappy looking flash and maybe some sand....I did.   It probably won't matter in the long run but given the level of detail I see in your work I'm guessing you might sigh and shake your head.  They don't spend any effort to clean up their mess, just slap some paint on it and ship it out.  I mean, couldn't that twelve year old Chinese factory worker spend just another 30 minutes to make it look nice?  Guess not. You said you'd probably keep the mill drill.  I'm betting once you get the new mill up and running you'll never use that Rong Fu again.  I say this because I had the exact same mill drill that you have....same size, same x-axis drive, same color.  The new mill was a completely different machine, no more handles falling off cus the grub screws got loose, no more messed up setups cus I had to raise the head cus the quill travel wasn't long enough, no more climbing up on a chair to loosen the motor/pully brackets to change speed.  Keep us posted and I can't wait to see what you build with it.Miller 211 w/ spool gunMiller Dynasty 200DXLongevity 60i IGBT plasmaO/A w/ crappy chinese torch/gaugesSouth Bend 10K latheGrizzly 4029 10x54 millGrizzly 7x12 hor bandsawangle grnders, bench grnder, bench belt sndr7.5 hp 80gal cmprsor
Reply:Glad to here they got in touch and will hopefully make things right. Good idea attaching the link to here so they can see that it's not just one customer that they would potentially loose!!! Lets hope they've been honest with you and not just back pedaling because they got busted by someone who isn't going to stand for it. A company can be 1000 years old, but if grandpa built the good name, all it takes is a lazy, greedy, idiot son or nephew to throw it away. Sad really, but happens across the spectrum.  Good luck with the "new" one to come!200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:this is a tough one, finding a suitable priced machine for your needs probaley took you a while what to decide on but at the end of the day that is rubbish i would return the unit and never deal with them again .....Cigweld Transmig 265seBoc 140amp StickBoss 200amp AC/DC TIGLincoln Electric Invertec V260-S
Reply:Originally Posted by 4shortsA "NEW" mill will arrive at there warehouse tomorrow. It will be fitted out with all the options I had asked for and personally inspected by the appropriate people and then shipped out to me as a "NEW" mill with "ALL" options "INSTALLED" at no extra cost to me personally. I will check with the salesman tomorrow and ask if it can be shipped the way BDT mentioned in reply #12 and I thank him for the advise.
Reply:Originally Posted by BTDThe pics don't show it real clear but does the mill have a DRO.  I think I saw one of the encoders in the pics. .
Reply:U might post a ~wanted BP~ on this site? could turn one, these fellas are real keen on machining stuff. http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/Bondo? go figure?   Course the Chinese, have centuries of  casting skills before we ever even thought of it... still, they  don't seem to understand the process very well   I like older US stuff and some sweat equity.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLionU might post a ~wanted BP~ on this site? could turn one, these fellas are real keen on machining stuff. http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/Bondo? go figure?   Course the Chinese, have centuries of  casting skills before we ever even thought of it... still, they  don't seem to understand the process very well   I like older US stuff and some sweat equity.
Reply:Originally Posted by bert the welderJust food for thought, 4shorts.Bert
Reply:Originally Posted by 4shortsI know what your saying Bert but some of the stuff coming out of China is pretty good. I bought a tire changer made in China and that was four years ago. I have never had an issue with it and it has changed hundreds of tires and not harmed a wheel rim. The welds on the thing is as good as I've ever seen and if it gave out tomorrow it wouldn't owe me a dime and I'd go right out and bring home another one.The milling machine I'm buying is made in Taiwan. I've been told by machinist that the Taiwanese mills are very good and there in most shops around. The problem I have with buying a BP is I'm on an island and I don't want to ship in a worn out unit so that's why I'm going in the direction I'm going in. Have you heard of anyone getting injured buy a Chinese or Taiwanese mill? I haven't. Thanks for your comment though.
Reply:Just couldn't resist sounding off here.One of the nice things about being "older" (58 this month) is that I can see things going on around me and remember when it happened before....oil shortages, global warming (OK it was global cooling then but basically the same politics), and crappy Asian products. Back in the late 50's/early 60's we laughed about the junk coming from the east...cameras, cars, radios.  Only it wasn't China, it was Japan.  Fast forward to the 21st Century...Lexus, Nissan (used to be Datsun), Nikon, Sony not to mention some rather nice machine tools.  When the stuff started getting good (sometimes better than ours) we wrung our hands that the Japanese were going to take over the world and ruin our economy and we'd all lose our jobs.  That didn't happen then...it won't happen now.There's some crappy Chinese stuff out there...but it's getting better by the minute.  Their economy is also improving as well as the average Chinese standard of living.  They used to be evil Chicoms, now they're consumers.  And what lifestyle to they want to have?  Simple answer...ours.  Make me kinda proud.Have fun with that mill.  If I were you I'd grab the bargains while they last 'cus I can bet they won't last long.Please excuse my ranting.Miller 211 w/ spool gunMiller Dynasty 200DXLongevity 60i IGBT plasmaO/A w/ crappy chinese torch/gaugesSouth Bend 10K latheGrizzly 4029 10x54 millGrizzly 7x12 hor bandsawangle grnders, bench grnder, bench belt sndr7.5 hp 80gal cmprsor
Reply:Just to let you know, bondo is used on all bridgeport mills too, that's how they get that smooth finish.Synchowave 180SD  Bernard 3500SS water coolerMillermatic 200Parker Plasma Tec 40dvOperating Engineers Local 12
Reply:Originally Posted by BruceTSJust to let you know, bondo is used on all bridgeport mills too, that's how they get that smooth finish.
Reply:Here's another item I thought I'd mention here that is related to machining. I've been running a lathe for 20 years now. I haven't had anything that I couldn't do with it up to this point with in it's capacity. That being said, I still only picked up what I know on my own and every day I learn a little more. I was looking around the net a few weeks ago and came across a guy who produced a video called "Machine Shop Secrets". Looked at a few of the sample vids that were there so I said why not and ordered the DVD. Well I can tell you honestly it was one of the best DVD's I ever bought ( even better than Avatar) . If you think you know it all you should think again. I've spent a pile of money on tooling and trying to get a milling machine and this was the best $50. I ever spent. I'm in no way related to the guy who produced this video and I'm not getting reimbursed in any way for posting this. Honestly. I'm just a happy customer http://www.machineshopsecrets.com/sample.htmlMiller 302 Trailblazer/Custom TrailerMillermatic 350P/Spool gunMillermatic 252Miller Spectrum 875Miller Dynasty200DxHypertherm Powermax 85Tracker CNC 4X8 Pro Table (Down Draft)Visit us @ www.specialtyrepairscustommods.com
Reply:Hi Bert, the "sweat equity" I was referring to was my sweat  I meant to clean up an older item, maybe US made to put it back into service, save a few $ and have something nice to use.  My uncle had a serious bias against  the Japanese, he was a Marine in the Pacific in '42-5... so I guess it was understandable.  I was in Nam, could be I should re think some of my "stinkin' thinkin'.  Still, I do like US stuff the best   I got room for a mill, hmmm wish I knew how to use one well, the DVD might be worth a looksee.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Any update?Did they make it right or did you go with another mill altogether?
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim MAny update?Did they make it right or did you go with another mill altogether?
Reply:Glad to hear everything worked out for you.