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Hey guys. I just got the opportunity to bid on a kitchen job where the customer wants stainless steel back splash installed on three different kitchen sinks. pics below.They are pretty sure they dont want them welded to the top of the sinks (just overlaped 2inches on the angled part of the top of the sinks).This way when the wall is splashed by water it will hit the back splash and fall down and into the sink. They said that caulking the overlap of the new back splash with the sink with silicone is most likely what they want. I'm going to quote with both options. Heres my Qs. I'm first thinking that this would be a great opportunity to use my new 4ft finger brake, but thats exactly the problem its only 4f long. The three kitchen sink lengths are: 78 1/2 in, 125 1/2 in, and 5ft. So when I put a ~30 degree bend 2inches from the bottom of each backsplash, because my brake is only 4ft long, should I just do it in pieces and weld the seam in a but weld to accomplish the full length?Example: One sink is 5ft long. So cut 4 ft section and a 1ft section, put both in bender separately to bend to get the bevel that will overlap the top edge of the sink. Then but weld the two pieces together all the way through the bent 2inch section. They want these flush with the wall behind, hence the bevel that will have to be bent. I guess i could sub this out to a shop with a larger brake, but then what about the sink with the 125in length. Thats 10 ft. Does anyone have a bender that long?? lol I hope this makes sense. Anyone have an idea of what they would price a job like this out at? So would you guys approach this the same way im talking?Last edited by outdoort; 07-17-2015 at 06:27 PM.Dynasty 200DX (2014)Millermatic 211 (2015)Optrel 864 (2014)Smith Medium duty MBA 30510 (Xmas 2014)Tennsmith 16ga 4ft finger brake (2015)Trailblazer 325 EFI and excel Thermal dynamics Cutmaster 82Miller maxtron 450
Reply:I spend a lot of time in restaurants commercial A/V is my main business that being said in south Florida to get some one to show up and do what they say is difficult. I have a great relationship with my customers they know I get things done I have done exactly what you are planning many times. The way I have don't it is with overlapping vertical seams caulked to seal the overlap and top and bottom. nothing in kitchens is done fast enough and cheap enough welding in a kitchen is a bad idea metal from grinding gets everywhere make you panels as close to equal length with a 2" over lap and stick them in place you in out and payed.
Reply:Most commercial brakes arw at least 10 ft long. All the ones I use are minimum 12 feet.
Reply:Originally Posted by iongarMost commercial brakes arw at least 10 ft long. All the ones I use are minimum 12 feet.
Reply:Originally Posted by jamesclerieI spend a lot of time in restaurants commercial A/V is my main business that being said in south Florida to get some one to show up and do what they say is difficult. I have a great relationship with my customers they know I get things done I have done exactly what you are planning many times. The way I have don't it is with overlapping vertical seams caulked to seal the overlap and top and bottom. nothing in kitchens is done fast enough and cheap enough welding in a kitchen is a bad idea metal from grinding gets everywhere make you panels as close to equal length with a 2" over lap and stick them in place you in out and payed.
Reply:One other thing. What finish do i request for the stainless sheet? Not farmiliar with the different kitchen finishes.Dynasty 200DX (2014)Millermatic 211 (2015)Optrel 864 (2014)Smith Medium duty MBA 30510 (Xmas 2014)Tennsmith 16ga 4ft finger brake (2015)Trailblazer 325 EFI and excel Thermal dynamics Cutmaster 82Miller maxtron 450
Reply:I worked in kitchens for seven years when I lived in Vegas. Seen a lot of installs done in that time. One thing for sure, you're NOT going to want to weld anything you don't have to as far as a backsplash goes. Every single one I seen either uses a prefabricated joint piece silicone caulked between sections made of plastic or metal, or was just overlapped (that has it's difficulties if the material isn't flat). I'm guessing you're going to glue them to the wall behind? Again, all the ones I have seen were either attached to the wall with an adhesive, mechanical fasteners or a combination of both.I put stainless backsplash in my kitchen when I redid it back in the mid 2000s. I used 18 ga with a grained finish. I attached it to the walls with finished stainless screws which hit the studs inside the wall. I laid out and pre drilled all my holes then put the screws in. I also had to pre cut holes for three electrical outlets in a single piece. That was a bit nerve racking but they came out right on the money. I used a plasma cutter to do mine.You can purchase stainless in a variety of finishes from a radial wipe (straight grain) to highly polished. When you go to get some pricing from your steel supplier, they should be able to show you samples of the various grades they have available. I'm not sure on the type, I wanna say 304 but I might be wrong. It's been a long time.An important thing you will have to calculate when pricing and buying material is accounting for grain direction, unless you're customer wants a more polished grade where the grain won't be as obvious. If you're using more standard grade finish material, the last thing you want is to have mismatched pieces with grain going the opposite directions. Getting a single direction on the grain of the material of course, will result in increased expense since you may need to purchase additional material to accomplish this at a joint or corner. This is where you have to do some figuring so when you buy the material and give the supplier a cut list, all your materials come out with the grain going in the same direction. Horizontal will almost always be cheaper than vertical (except on entire wall pieces) since the longitudinal plane on a piece of sheet metal is going to follow the grain. The cut guy botched one of the cuts on my kitchen back splash and gave me the piece correct dimensions, but with the grain going the wrong way. Fortunately, they didn't argue with me about it when I took it back and pointed it out. He actually cut me a new piece and let me keep the mistake.I also noticed some pipes and boxes attached to the walls. You may not be able to remove some of these things, so you'll want to discuss with your customer how they want you to lay the material out when it comes to obstructions that cannot be removed and re attached. I'm by far no expert when it comes to this kind of stuff, but I do know that it can be a lot more work than you initially realize. Especially when you get into having to remove obstructions, then possibly have to cut the material to allow for protruding pipes, wiring, etc. How high do they want it to go? You may find yourself a good day into the job removing shelving and other stuff just to be able to install the material. I would certainly find out exactly what all the details are regarding that before proceeding. Can you run the stainless behind the counters and sinks, without a complex bend to meet the surface of them at the top? It'll be a hell of a lot easier and I don't recall ever seeing any back splashes bent in such a manner.If you encounter obstructions that cannot be removed, you're on the hook figuring out how to put the panel up around it. How will you cut the material if you have to do so? Plasma? Hole saw? Jig saw?That's when things get tricky and you only get one shot to lay it out and cut it right. It's no fun if you botch a cutout for a protrusion in the wrong place and have to foot the bill for a new piece of material to fix it. Mechanical methods of cutting stainless can muck it up REAL fast if you're not extremely careful. You'll have to account for that when making the bid. In second to the last pic, the piping over the sink will mean you'll have to cut the material to get around it. Or disassemble the piping and put a hole in the material.Don't think you'll wanna be doing that tho. Lots of things to consider......I dunno. I would be hesitant to take on the job with a limited amount of experience and equipment to do the install work. Not trying to be discouraging, just speaking from my own limited experience.IMHO of course Attached ImagesLast edited by 7A749; 07-18-2015 at 11:10 AM.
Reply:Check with Afflicted, he has a 10' brake he apparently wants to get rid of.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...an-brake-worthMaybe y'all are close enough to work something out, even if you were to just use it for this one job and he keeps it. If he's close enough & a nice guy, he may let you use it long enough to make your bends, so you can move on with this project.
Reply:7A749 brought up a lot of good points. There is a lot to consider here. As mentioned, grain direction, if the owner wants that. It would be a lot cheaper to buy a 2B finish. That is just a standard mill finish. It can be "grained" by hand with a coarse Scotchbrite pad, if you want. It's not as perfect as a 4F (machine-grained) finish, but for a restaurant kitchen, the savings are worth it. You can do this before bending, after bending, or after the pieces are installed.After the 30 degree bend is put in, will the piece be able to slide right back and hit the wall, or will the silicone/other current water barriers that I see in the pictures prevent that. If so, all that stuff will have to be cut out of there. The other option is to make the bend less than 30 degrees, say 25 degrees. Then, if you screw it to the wall, set down just so that the bottom edge of your 2" bend touches the angled part of the sink, there will be a little air space behind the rest of your new bend to fit over any obstacles. Of course, you'd have to seal the vertical ends off, somehow. There will be a small gap there.Is that wall ceramic tile, or some composite material? If ceramic, you'd need some ceramic drill bits.Is the wall straight? No bows in it? All this stuff matters when trying to get the new pieces to fit.Does the 10' sink need the back splash the entire length? If he's got clipboards hanging there, I'm guessing that that particular area doesn't get all that wet. Maybe just install the back splash over the 3 sinks, with a little extra. That way, you might be able to get away with buying an 8' sheet, instead of a 10' sheet.If you are going to sub out the bending, perhaps you could have that shop do the shearing for you, too. Depending on how high each back splash is, maybe a 4' x 8' sheet will be enough.I personally wouldn't go with less that 18 ga., preferably 16 ga. There is probably a lot more to consider, but at least you've got enough to help you decide if you want to take on this job. Especially if you're doing it alone. An extra pair of hands would surely come in handy! It's worth a considerable amount of money. Hopefully, you'll price it right.What ever you decide, good luck!Last edited by steelsurgeon; 07-18-2015 at 05:13 PM.
Reply:Great points SS! Yeah, it's gonna be an involved job whatever the case. Even with what little I know, I would be reluctant to do it myself, especially if they're looking for a "budget" priced job.I'm guessing that they probably are. Nothing involving stainless and kitchens is cheap. The guys that did a lot of the install work at Palace Station when I was working there were getting close to $100/hr according to one of the senior engineers (the maintenance guys) and that was back in the mid 90s.Yeah, cover your bases well before diving in. You could get over your head really quick.IMHO of course
Reply:I would sub this to someone with a longer brake, that's what we do at my work. We order the sheet with a #4 finish (trust me, you're not going to want to grain all that yourself), overlap all vertical seams and use heavy duty double sided tape and silicone. The double sided tape is just to hold it in place until the silicone dries.
Reply:Thanks for the helpful points so far. Yes I'm going to get a quote from a couple sheet metal shops I deal with for them to supply material, shearing, and bending. The only reason why I was thinking 20 gauge is that the one sink has a 90 degree corner where I'll have to bend the sheet 90 degrees to go the other way for approx 3 more feet. I was just going to cut the 2 inch pre bent section at 45*s and then tig weld and blend back together. Some of your other Qs and points: I admit, I'm pretty new to the kitchen stainless stuff, but I feel this job would be pretty easy for me honestly. The back splash will slide right in under the shelves and will be mounted using those existing screws for the most part. I will Need to drill some additional holes in the wall (i think its tile, What does ceramic look like?). -And that does concern me drilling holes in that stuff without it breaking, but there are already existing holes in the wall with wall anchors. I plan to have the sheet pre bent at a slightly less of an angle that way the 2inch bottom section sits flush against the sink no problems.Dynasty 200DX (2014)Millermatic 211 (2015)Optrel 864 (2014)Smith Medium duty MBA 30510 (Xmas 2014)Tennsmith 16ga 4ft finger brake (2015)Trailblazer 325 EFI and excel Thermal dynamics Cutmaster 82Miller maxtron 450
Reply:7a749 and Steel surgeon definately have helpful comments and valid points raised. One of the walls isn't particualary flat so yes, I will have to take that into consideration. Another reason why I'm thinking 20ga if I have to force it into place against the wall (with glue) I don't want it too think lol. The pipes: yes I plan to jig saw cut on site within their parking lot after I've made my final measurements. Qs still: What type of glue would one use to glue on the backsplash? Would I really need to find a stud to drill extra screws? or would a plastic female wall anchor with a screw work? Do I need a special bit to drill this tile? How much $ would you add on after materials for this job? I really have no Idea what materials or the bend and cutting sub out will cost me untill tomorrow or something.Dynasty 200DX (2014)Millermatic 211 (2015)Optrel 864 (2014)Smith Medium duty MBA 30510 (Xmas 2014)Tennsmith 16ga 4ft finger brake (2015)Trailblazer 325 EFI and excel Thermal dynamics Cutmaster 82Miller maxtron 450
Reply:I wouldn't even bother with screws, get some heavy duty double sided tape and 100% Silicone, clean everything well and put small strips of double sided tape and beads of the silicone on the sheet, stick in place.
Reply:This customer wants a fancy written quote for corporate they said with all the detailed costs etc. I'm thinking about making something on microsoft word? What does one use to maintain the professional look?Dynasty 200DX (2014)Millermatic 211 (2015)Optrel 864 (2014)Smith Medium duty MBA 30510 (Xmas 2014)Tennsmith 16ga 4ft finger brake (2015)Trailblazer 325 EFI and excel Thermal dynamics Cutmaster 82Miller maxtron 450
Reply:Originally Posted by outdoortThis customer wants a fancy written quote for corporate they said with all the detailed costs etc. I'm thinking about making something on microsoft word? What does one use to maintain the professional look?
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749A carbon receipt book and good handwriting.Other than that, sure Word or any other writing program will do the job.
Reply:Originally Posted by Sharon NeedlesI wouldn't even bother with screws, get some heavy duty double sided tape and 100% Silicone, clean everything well and put small strips of double sided tape and beads of the silicone on the sheet, stick in place.
Reply:16 or 18 Gauge #2 brushed 304SS (2B). Don't plan on welding any of it or you are in for some unpleasant surprises. Caulk all seams, tape off both sides, apply the caulk, and then pull the tape off. Don't plan on cutting any of it on site. make really good measurements and templates, cut all holes and shear first, then bend. Use a high tack, early initial strength panel adhesive, that gives you a little flexibility when setting, allows for some repositioning, yet you don't have to wait for hours before it has some holding power. Try Power Grab adhesive or something similar. Don't use any screws, or you are in for some unpleasant surprises when you drill the holes and try to screw it down flat. It will pucker and bow during both operations and you will not be able to get it back to flat. Certainly SS can be welded, drilled, cut, screwed, etc, but since you are not well versed in it, set yourself up for success by avoiding those pitfalls. It takes a lot of practice and skill to pull those things off with good success, and then even sometimes they bite you in the butt. It is not like tig welding brackets out of SS flat bar in the shop. If you really think you want to weld some of these pieces, get some fairly large scraps and try running a seam on one and you will quickly change you mind. If you are dead set on welding it, you need some fairly heavy blocks of copper, clamp them on both sides of the joint to be welded and on both faces. Autogenus welds only, no filler. Weld a little and let it cool in the blocks. carefully sand flush. Rebrush the finish using an inline body sander with 3M pads cut to fit.I did a piece recently that had an 8" seam that had to be welded. It came out of the blocks beautiful and flat. There was a tiny flaw after sanding and brushing it, just needed a little spot weld. I didn't re clamp it. I ended up scrapping it and starting again, bends holes and all. Lesson learned.Last edited by walker; 07-19-2015 at 07:12 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by walker16 or 18 Gauge #2 brushed 304SS (2B). Don't plan on welding any of it or you are in for some unpleasant surprises. Caulk all seams, tape off both sides, apply the caulk, and then pull the tape off. Don't plan on cutting any of it on site. make really good measurements and templates, cut all holes and shear first, then bend. Use a high tack, early initial strength panel adhesive, that gives you a little flexibility when setting, allows for some repositioning, yet you don't have to wait for hours before it has some holding power. Try Power Grab adhesive or something similar. Don't use any screws, or you are in for some unpleasant surprises when you drill the holes and try to screw it down flat. It will pucker and bow during both operations and you will not be able to get it back to flat. Certainly SS can be welded, drilled, cut, screwed, etc, but since you are not well versed in it, set yourself up for success by avoiding those pitfalls. It takes a lot of practice and skill to pull those things off with good success, and then even sometimes they bite you in the butt. It is not like tig welding brackets out of SS flat bar in the shop. If you really think you want to weld some of these pieces, get some fairly large scraps and try running a seam on one and you will quickly change you mind. If you are dead set on welding it, you need some fairly heavy blocks of copper, clamp them on both sides of the joint to be welded and on both faces. Autogenus welds only, no filler. Weld a little and let it cool in the blocks. carefully sand flush. Rebrush the finish using an inline body sander with 3M pads cut to fit.I did a piece recently that had an 8" seam that had to be welded. It came out of the blocks beautiful and flat. There was a tiny flaw after sanding and brushing it, just needed a little spot weld. I didn't re clamp it. I ended up scrapping it and starting again, bends holes and all. Lesson learned.
Reply:I'm gonna be dead honest with you man.This would NOT be the type of job I would wanna cut my teeth doing kitchen stainless on. Not at all.You best get a REAL solid game plan in line before you agree to anything. It sounds to me like you basically don't have a clue how to go about it. Asking how to find studs in a wall is a pretty good indication of that right out of the gate.I want to be very clear that I'm NOT dogging you, or trying to discourage you. I'm only saying that trying to tackle something such as this without any experience or knowledge about it going in, and doing it alone, is a decision fraught with potential for problems. I also can't help but think that they're probably looking to get it done cheap, otherwise they likely would have called a professional kitchen install outfit to come out and give them an estimate.My guess is because they know that those guys charge BIG money to do what they do.Man, I've take on a few jobs that ended up being WAAY more than I could handle and ended up walking away embarrassed and eating a large share of the expense because I couldn't finish what I started. I had to learn that lesson the hard way more than once. Let's just say I've been VERY careful since and don't plan on making that mistake again.If you really wanna do the job, see if you can get some help. Someone with some solid carpentry background would be able to help you find the studs, or give some input on adhesives to use and help with measurements where you are gonna need more than two hands.I applaud your ambition. Just keep in mind that if anything goes wrong, YOU are on the hook for it.Good luck with it man.IMHO of course
Reply:In case I missed it, how high is the new backsplash going to be above your 2" bend line?Rich
Reply:Originally Posted by outdoortThanks for the helpful points so far. Yes I'm going to get a quote from a couple sheet metal shops I deal with for them to supply material, shearing, and bending. The only reason why I was thinking 20 gauge is that the one sink has a 90 degree corner where I'll have to bend the sheet 90 degrees to go the other way for approx 3 more feet. I was just going to cut the 2 inch pre bent section at 45*s and then tig weld and blend back together.
Reply:Originally Posted by steelsurgeonIn case I missed it, how high is the new backsplash going to be above your 2" bend line?Rich
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749I'm gonna be dead honest with you man.This would NOT be the type of job I would wanna cut my teeth doing kitchen stainless on. Not at all.You best get a REAL solid game plan in line before you agree to anything. It sounds to me like you basically don't have a clue how to go about it. Asking how to find studs in a wall is a pretty good indication of that right out of the gate.I want to be very clear that I'm NOT dogging you, or trying to discourage you. I'm only saying that trying to tackle something such as this without any experience or knowledge about it going in, and doing it alone, is a decision fraught with potential for problems. I also can't help but think that they're probably looking to get it done cheap, otherwise they likely would have called a professional kitchen install outfit to come out and give them an estimate.My guess is because they know that those guys charge BIG money to do what they do.Man, I've take on a few jobs that ended up being WAAY more than I could handle and ended up walking away embarrassed and eating a large share of the expense because I couldn't finish what I started. I had to learn that lesson the hard way more than once. Let's just say I've been VERY careful since and don't plan on making that mistake again.If you really wanna do the job, see if you can get some help. Someone with some solid carpentry background would be able to help you find the studs, or give some input on adhesives to use and help with measurements where you are gonna need more than two hands.I applaud your ambition. Just keep in mind that if anything goes wrong, YOU are on the hook for it.Good luck with it man.IMHO of coursePersonally I would drill holes in the backsplash of the sinks and shoot studs to the new splash to hold the lap tight against the existing splash along the length. At least on that 3-comp. I'd be shocked if that backsplash is flat. So you'll need some way to keep the lap tight. If you don't have a stud welder, small evenly spaced tacks will do the trick. Knock the color off with scotchbrite and seal. If that little one is 14ga it's probably pretty flat so I would do a small edge tack on each end then seal the length. For ss to ss use aluminum color food grade silicone. For ss to anything else use clear food grade silicone. Whatever sealant you use to secure the new splash to the wall, put it on the wall and the ss and smear them around a little bit before you slide the splash in place-to flatten the beads. Very important to have no sharp edges (i.e. round the corners a bit on your new splash where it meets with the existing one) and seal absolutely everything. Good luck!
Reply:Appreciate the tip rgfab242 about the silicone color. I would have not known that and now thats one less think i have to figure out when the time comes. Looks like they are going to give me a go on the job, I think. I have a plan of action. But Q. If I did put just a couple tig tacks in place on the lap, that might not be a bad idea at all. The small tack would probably be un-noticable after I coat the lap joint with silicone. And as what was said above, this may be completely neccessary if their sinks aren't completely flat...Dynasty 200DX (2014)Millermatic 211 (2015)Optrel 864 (2014)Smith Medium duty MBA 30510 (Xmas 2014)Tennsmith 16ga 4ft finger brake (2015)Trailblazer 325 EFI and excel Thermal dynamics Cutmaster 82Miller maxtron 450 |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:32:06