Welding to RR track

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I was asked to weld some black pipe to a guard rail for a flag holder in a parking lot, the guard rail is made out of old rail road track. I was going to mig weld it, it would be welded to the bottom side of the track will this work ?Lincoln 210mp
Reply:The HAZ will probably be somewhat brittle as the rail is generally medium-high carbon steel."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Would pre heat help? The flags are only on a 6" poleLincoln 210mp
Reply:Sorry 6 ft poleLincoln 210mp
Reply:Weld one, bang on it with a hammer. If it holds you are probably OK. Pre and post heat/cool down are a good idea on hardenable steel, but for a flag holder ..."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Good point! Doing for our local American legion hall would hate to see the flag on some guys hood on $1 beer night lol thanks for the infoLincoln 210mp
Reply:On $1 beer night, I wouldn't even see the hood, let alone the flag.If a weld doesn't crack at first, it should be strong.  However, if the substrate is high carbon, the quenching effect can harden it significantly.  It might be hard and strong but not ductile.  So it wouldn't hold up to impact shock or repetitive stress. Some hammers are tempered hard.  Stone hammers are generally softer to prevent chipping and spalling."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:I can say this from experience, the weld will break if you put any real shock load on it. Not sure on preheats/post heats but I will say that I have never seen welds break as easily as I have with additions to railroad track. A flag holder might be ok but I wouldn't get too crazy. I welded a piece of angle to a track and it popped off with the equivalent of a watchmakers hammer blow. The weld held fine but the track broke and removed the weld in mirrored fashion from the body of the track. It was welded with properly stored 7018, no heating or cooling because the boss wanted it done now, and wouldn't do it on my own insurance, ever. Since then, I have done a bunch of research on railroad rail steel and would be surprised if you could make a guaranteed sound electric arc weld without a significant amount of preheating and post heating, like temperature and time controlled preheating and post heating.
Reply:make a plate and bend it around the base of the track, or take two short angle irons, and weld them to the plate with the lips under and clamping the plate to the base of the rail,     Weld the edges, weld the pipe on the plate, or bolt the plate to the base of the rail.
Reply:Well I welded it tonight and took oldendum advice welded it with no preheat and hit it good with a 2lb sledge, it held! But my ears hurt sounded like a church bell. Thanks every oneLincoln 210mp
Reply:now days, it might be a bigger concern what type of flag you got, rather than the weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldnow days, it might be a bigger concern what type of flag you got, rather than the weld.
Reply:In the old days of scrapping trolley rail, the old timers stated that the top of the rail was work hardened and brittle. They often cut the bottom and web with torches, then lifted it off the ground and dropped it. The top portion of the rail would break. They felt it was cheaper to do it that way.Where am I going?Based on this "scientific" info, then you should be able to weld to the bottom of a rail with no issues.....
Reply:Check out breaking a rail at 00:19 in this video.  Looks like the bottom and part of the web were cut.  Top snaps clean."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:this discussion made me go look at the 10 or 12 " piece that i have that i used to drag behind a disk to act as a poor mans harrow.    i gotta pretty good idea who welded it, and i don't think of them as to sophisticated.    it has ears welded on each end, and only welded to the top portion.    What drijinin said about the bottom, sounds good, and it will stick in my mind.    I can't say for sure, but it seems to me, I've even seen the railroad guys welding on rails still being used.    I know they do it, I'll try to find the link of an article on here about a year ago in an automated way.    Anyway, yea, I'd think you ought to be able to hold a flag up w/o much effort or thinking on this
Reply:Originally Posted by burnsI can say this from experience, the weld will break if you put any real shock load on it. Not sure on preheats/post heats but I will say that I have never seen welds break as easily as I have with additions to railroad track. A flag holder might be ok but I wouldn't get too crazy. I welded a piece of angle to a track and it popped off with the equivalent of a watchmakers hammer blow. The weld held fine but the track broke and removed the weld in mirrored fashion from the body of the track. It was welded with properly stored 7018, no heating or cooling because the boss wanted it done now, and wouldn't do it on my own insurance, ever. Since then, I have done a bunch of research on railroad rail steel and would be surprised if you could make a guaranteed sound electric arc weld without a significant amount of preheating and post heating, like temperature and time controlled preheating and post heating.
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldthis discussion made me go look at the 10 or 12 " piece that i have that i used to drag behind a disk to act as a poor mans harrow.    i gotta pretty good idea who welded it, and i don't think of them as to sophisticated.    it has ears welded on each end, and only welded to the top portion.    What drijinin said about the bottom, sounds good, and it will stick in my mind.    I can't say for sure, but it seems to me, I've even seen the railroad guys welding on rails still being used.    I know they do it, I'll try to find the link of an article on here about a year ago in an automated way.    Anyway, yea, I'd think you ought to be able to hold a flag up w/o much effort or thinking on this
Reply:as i rember seeing them stick weld, it was buy some tracks where switching was done.    it must be policy for each welder to have a lookout, cuz each welder had a guy standing next to him.    They were stick welding i believe.      the article i was trying to find was a member on here said he was certified to do this, and had pics, and of a junction area they did.   i think it was the thermite way you were talking about.    as i remeber he had some little mechanical can looking thing or something about double the size of a coffee can.   i think he would set it next to the track, and turn it on, walk away, and it would robotically like fuse it together or something.
Reply:The high manganese (12-13 percent) steel used for frogs is a different beast than the rail steel. The Frog Mang rod is 20% manganese.For rails, preheat can't hurt.  But if you get a successful weld, post heating the immediate weld area to a very dark red (1,000 - 1,200 F) will at least draw the temper where the weld zone hardened due to the quenching effect of the mass of the rail. Read up on hardening, quenching and tempering.  Ask a blacksmith or knife maker.Here's a typical rail steel analysis from Jersey Shore Steel.  They reroll used rails - "The furniture and bed frame industries are the largest consumers of Jersey Shore Steel angle.""USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldas i rember seeing them stick weld, it was buy some tracks where switching was done.    it must be policy for each welder to have a lookout, cuz each welder had a guy standing next to him.    They were stick welding i believe.      the article i was trying to find was a member on here said he was certified to do this, and had pics, and of a junction area they did.   i think it was the thermite way you were talking about.    as i remeber he had some little mechanical can looking thing or something about double the size of a coffee can.   i think he would set it next to the track, and turn it on, walk away, and it would robotically like fuse it together or something.
Reply:Thermite Welding:moulds placed and gap closed with luting sandCanister with thermite mixture set on top of the moulds, and the charge has just been startedAfter the reaction and the cooling down, moulds are ready to be opened up:Cutting of the surplus of filler material with a hydraulic trimming machine:Results of the trimming operation, now both risers still have to be removed:
Reply:nice pis and explanation burns and kingnero, sure beats what i was trying to babble about.   http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ight=rail+roadLast edited by 123weld; 08-08-2015 at 12:12 PM.