Help with gin pole design

admin

I've been designing a welding bed and I want a set of gin poles. I've got most of the bed and boxes worked out, but I want some input on the gin poles. I've looked and looked at pictures on the net and I've tried to find some to look at in person with no luck. So I would really appreciate it if some of you guy that run and or build poles could give me a heads up on what mistakes not to make now. I have thought about a small winch like a 3000 lb. but now I'm leaning more toward a larger one. Also, unless something changes my setup will be on my 99 chevy 2500. ThanksRanger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Think about a few things for the moment... What's the remaining payload weight capacity of your chevy 2500, with all your welding gear on board?  This should set the max lift capacity of your gin poles, unless you're also going to build some kind of outriggers to transfer the load from the poles to the deck to the ground, without overloading the truck suspension.Once you've figured this out, you need to size the poles to carry that load, at maximum reach without exceeding the yield strength of the components in the rigging and structure.  For safety, make sure that the stress doesn't exceed 1/2 to 1/10 the load required to cause yielding/buckling of the tubes, mounts, pins, cable, hook, and hoist.  I've heard cranes are designed for 7x factor of safety, but that's for massive construction equipment that sees continuous duty and which the designers have to account for accumulating fatigue damage.  For an small gin pole setup that sees infrequent use, you can probably opt for a smaller FOS in the design.Make sure you buy a winch/hoist that is designed and rated for overhead lifting.  Most of the winches sold are for horizontal pulling and they don't incorporate the safety features you want in a machine that's picking heavy things up off the ground...If the literature with the winch doesn't explicity say it's suitable for overhead lifting, assume that it's not....Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Here's mine. This is the 4th one I've built and I can't think of any thing that would make this any better. I copied parts of several other set ups I have seen. I use mine a lot and consider it to be the best I know of any where. It picks itself up and lays it self back down with the winch line. It takes about a minute to adjust it in angle and a few minutes to extend or shorten it. It goes out to 19' in length, giving me 21' of height counting the truck bed. Sorry, I don't have pictures of the individual parts of it. I could get them tomorrow if you want.Up at normal height.Extended half way.DownHauling a forty foot beam Attached Images
Reply:Most of the 1 ton hotshot guys around here are running 8 - 10k winches, for poles 2-7/8" pipe works. Some are using square tube slid inside each other to extend taller if needed , pipe same way. I have seen many use "sockets" welded into bed,where you slide in your poles(need swivel base mounted to end of pole)...similar to a 2" reciever hitch setup...makes for easy mount/removal.I had a Leland pole bed with rolling tailboard, poles were pin mounted like on the big oilfeild trucks, i used Super Winch 10k winches, was happy with them. Need a long remote and dont skimp on the blocks,wire rope and fittings needed for the setup.this link might help somehttp://www.totalrace.ro/info17.htmlehttp://www.j-btrailers.com/1ton.htmlLast edited by saltbranch; 06-28-2011 at 11:43 PM.Reason: add link
Reply:Good looking setup Bob, I for one would like to see some close up pics if you have them. After I get my house project down, I plan on building a flatbed with poles for my old 1 ton...hopefully by late summer.
Reply:How BIG do you want the poles to be? lol This is the 2nd last set I made - Pole cap was 35 feet in the air, and they were certified to lift 79.8 Tons. Attached ImagesLater,Jason
Reply:Dab- Thanks for the margin of safety reminder. That had crossed my mind when I asked for input. Bob- If you could post some detail pictures I would appreciate it very much.Thanks for the link saltbranch.Blackwolf -I swear you friggin canadians get carried away with your rig up trucks!lol None of the local rig movers use the tandem fronts, but they do have some trucks with similar wheelbase. I think I'll be lifting more like 700 lb rather than 79 tons. Thanks for the pictures.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Originally Posted by MrLeadManBlackwolf -I swear you friggin canadians get carried away with your rig up trucks!lol None of the local rig movers use the tandem fronts, but they do have some trucks with similar wheelbase. I think I'll be lifting more like 700 lb rather than 79 tons. Thanks for the pictures.
Reply:Originally Posted by Black Wolf but from what I hear, Pole Trucks have gone the way of the Dinosaur - All the big companies make the rig movers use Cranes for the Derrick and Draw Works now.
Reply:Here in South Texas Pole Trucks are in short supply, they cant build them fast enough. Even old ones are being refurbed. We just outfitted one of the tandem steer trucks today with winch lines and blocks, we have done several tandem steers over the last year or so, they are an awesome piece of equipment.
Reply:PLEASE DO A BUILD thread when you go and build this
Reply:I saw this hotshot truck about a year ago that had a real cool pole setup for his 1 ton, prolly not useful on a welding rig. He built a metal truck bed liner for the inside of the pickup bed,mounted/secured to the frame via brackets, had gooseneck hitch etc. For the poles he used what looked like 3" square tube, the poles were mounted at widest point in rear of bed interior, they were 45 at top with roughly a 3' piece welded in between outerr 45 corners.On the 3' piece he mounted the winch and had setup double lined using snatch blocks. The poles were moved via hydraulic cylinders. So he could go to a location, use poles to lift whatever like small BOPs, trees,valves whatever with the winch, use poles to fold over towards cab, lower material into bed, then lay poles up against the headache rack and transport. He used also for loading unloading his gooseneck trailer. Prolly one of the coolest pole setups I have seen on a 1 ton or actually this was a F-450 with pickup bed on it.
Reply:Pics of a pin hinge and the notches in the deck so that the poles will come apart and lay flat.The lower (flatter) you want the poles to be when you swing them together and install the pole cap, the wider and longer the notch has to be.Again, WAY TOO BIG for what you are doing, but it should help give you ideas.I am leaving the pictures LARGE so you can see the detail.  I will make a couple of posts. Attached ImagesLast edited by Black Wolf; 07-02-2011 at 06:02 PM.Later,Jason
Reply:More pics Attached ImagesLater,Jason
Reply:Pins are installed from the side, and held in by the plate above the red clearance light with 2 bolts in it.   Sorry - I'm not good at adding arrows to pictures. lolPoles are raised out of the deck and onto the kick roll with hydraulic pole risers. Attached ImagesLast edited by Black Wolf; 07-02-2011 at 06:04 PM.Later,Jason
Reply:The tapered head on the pole riser that contacts the gin pole, and controls it as the poles are raised up to the kick roll.Hope the pics help. Attached ImagesLast edited by Black Wolf; 07-02-2011 at 06:14 PM.Later,Jason
Reply:Many, many years ago growing up, the next door neighbour had a 1 Ton with a deck and poles - His poles were 2 piece, and when he slid out the inserts, they laid flat into the deck.  When he made up the poles, they rested on a short make up rack between the toolboxes and just above the cab of the truck.All the pole trucks up here work with tie-back cables, or the winch line from a 2nd winch, and are secured in the working position with chains.   I have never seen a truck rigged out so that the poles rested on a frame at the back of the deck. To each their own.All pole trucks I have driven, you use the winch line to raise them up off the make up rack, or kick roll.To lower them with tie back cables, we would either pull them over with chains ran under the front of the tires, or back up the bank, and swing on the cables to over-center them <-- BAD IDEA - Guys have DIED from doing this incorrectly.To lower them when using a 2nd winch, just slack off main line, while winching in tie-back line, and they fold over nice and safe.The secret has always been how you attach the tail chain of the main line to your rear apron.Later,Jason
Reply:Oh Crap, I forgot... The last pics of the poles are on this: Attached ImagesLast edited by Black Wolf; 07-02-2011 at 06:22 PM.Later,Jason
Reply:I've seen a few things not covered to the level I think they need to be in this thread. Here's pics of my current setup and I'll try to cover some details in them.  First off before I get to much flack on this setup I didn't actually build all of it. I have modified it and have plans on further improvements. That said I have lifted 3,500lbs with the line doubled. It requires blocking under the hitch but with care it will do it.   Now on to the first pic. The key thing here is the placement of the tail block in relation to the pole hinges. The pole hinges really need to be in front of the tail block. First off it's needed to allow lifting the poles with the winch as in second pic. Secondly if the tail block is to far forward and you lift a load with the poles near straight up you will pull the poles over onto your headache rack. If you look closely at the first pic you can see the original placement of the pole hinges by the original builder. He put them on the back corners of the bed. This didn't work well. I moved them in board as well as forward to clear the tool boxes I added to the bed. This allows me to lay them flat once the extensions are removed. That said you should have the poles mounted as far outboard as possible for stability.   I took the third pic to show improper rigging of the top. My helper put it back together wrong the other day when we put the welder back on my truck. Notice how the chains are going under the cross pin. I don't like this since if the rings happen to let go the chains could slide down the pole. The fourth pic shows the proper setup with the chains above the pin. This brings up another point. Be sure to attach the chains/cable at the point of load. I know one guy who made his poles with the chains going half way down the poles and couldn't figure out why he kept bending his poles even though they where twice as heavy as mine. I like the pin through the pole setup the best since it's the least likely to come apart if a side load happens. You should never pull sideways with a set of poles like this however sometimes things happen that cause a side pull when you don't want it. If the poles come apart in a situation like that then it makes a bad situation much worse.   In the last pic you can see the overall setup. Notice the tray on the headache rack to prevent the block from caving in my cab. Eagle eye readers might notice the second winch on the bed. That was my pole winch till it had a gear wear out in it. I've not got around to making a new gear so I'm back to using the chains that where on there when we bought the bed. Don't let the small size of the winches fool you. They are made for lifting and have the same gear setup as 12,000 lb winches just with a small spool. They came off of old auto cranes and are strong enough to break any line I put on them if care is not used. That brings up another detail. Be sure to use a high quality winch line made for the job. The line you see is the highest quality line I can buy and the cost reflected that.  I have some bigger pipe to make a new set of poles but I've just not had time to build them yet. The way it looks I'm going to hold off till I build my next truck since I'm working on plans for it now. Attached ImagesMillermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Blackwolf thanks for the pics I think that pin setup could be useful. Irish thank you for the detailed info that is big help. I've been learning to use Sketchup, I'll try get a drawing up for all to see this week.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Originally Posted by irish fixit  Now on to the first pic. The key thing here is the placement of the tail block in relation to the pole hinges. The pole hinges really need to be in front of the tail block. First off it's needed to allow lifting the poles with the winch as in second pic. Secondly if the tail block is to far forward and you lift a load with the poles near straight up you will pull the poles over onto your headache rack. If you look closely at the first pic you can see the original placement of the pole hinges by the original builder. He put them on the back corners of the bed. This didn't work well.I like the pin through the pole setup the best since it's the least likely to come apart if a side load happens.
Reply:Pole Cap PicsFirst pic - Pole cap secured to the side of the bed in behind the steps.Second pic - Stairs removed, and the pole cap can clearly be seen below Dameon (worker on the deck) Attached ImagesLater,Jason
Reply:Gin Poles in the air, and pole cap pinned into poles.Note: This set of poles was Engineered to use 1-1/8" Tie back cables, the Braden 125 Main Winch is supposed to be the "Load Line" and the Tulsa Rufnek 60 is supposed to be through the apron, and used to hold the BOP's from swinging.In these photos, the Tie-back cables aren't being used, the Braden 125 is holding the poles, and the Rufnek 30 is the load line.  These are "Demo" Photos just showing the poles in the air.Again Irish, I intend NO Disrespect, and I understand a man making do with what he has, but sometimes, there IS a better way. Attached ImagesLater,Jason
Reply:I do not intend that the OP build an absolute monstrosity like I have for use on a pick-up - that would be foolish... Instead, I suggest that he marry the two ideas together - Fab up a pole cap that slides into the poles, has a provision to attach the tie-back cables, AND has a provision to attach a snatch block/pulley/sheave very similiar to the one you have shown.I have seen several pick-up poles in years past with the set-up I just described above, but unfortunately, I do not have pictures.I have Google SketchUp as well - I can draft up a model of what I am describing if it will help.Hope that helps, and doesn't confuse or offend anyone.Later,Jason
Reply:Black Wolf, ya'll fab your own TB blocks?? You definetly play with some big equipment. Most of the 1 tons around here I have seen are using an "A" that drops into the poles at top and are pinned, they hag a block off the crossbar in the "A". Definetly agree on chains to secure poles.MrLeadman, when you get to point of putting the rigging together, shoot me a PM with what you are looking for. I work for a wire rope rigging shop and we sell pretty much everything you will need short of the winch. We carry the McKissick and Gunnebo Johnson Blocks, wire rope and all the fittings needed from 1/4" upto 3-1/2"...I should be able to get you some good pricing on it.These are close ups of my gin poles. I made this set up about 22 years ago. I copied parts of several different sets I had seen and talked to the owners to see what would be best. The biggest was almost as big as what Black Wolf shows and the smallest was on a 1 ton that was an oil field weldors truck.Although I have two connection points to hold the poles up, you can adjust both sides at the same time from the drivers side. There is a chain hook welded to the head ache rack that a chain slips in. The chain is hooked to a piece of winch line that goes to a snatch block at the head and back down to the other side of the head ache rack. The ring you see welded to the head ache rack is used when you bring your running line hook between the poles and hook it to the ring to hold the poles up with the winch while you make adjustments.The second picture shows the head while the poles are down on the rack. You can see the hold back piece of winch line running through the home made snatch block. What I like with this head is I can winch up to the very hieght of the poles unlike when you have the hanging snatch block that your running line goes through. The poles are 2 1/2"x3/16" square tube with 2"x1/4" square inside. I can extend them to half way and all the way minus a foot. They are then 19' long anf there is 3'3" from the ground to the pivot point of the swivel pins at the base so I have almost 22' of lift. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by saltbranchBlack Wolf, ya'll fab your own TB blocks?? You definetly play with some big equipment. Most of the 1 tons around here I have seen are using an "A" that drops into the poles at top and are pinned, they hag a block off the crossbar in the "A". Definetly agree on chains to secure poles.
Reply:Very Nice Bob... Thanks for the pics and explanation.  A couple more pics of pole caps off the Commanders - Same machine, just before and after mods to remove the 2nd winch and install a roller fairlead. Attached ImagesLast edited by Black Wolf; 07-03-2011 at 12:09 AM.Later,Jason
Reply:Although they don't look it now the base pieces of the poles are stainless. They were given to me by a scrapper and I have no idea what their intended purpose was. The bolt is 1", probably over kill but that was the size of the hole in the stainless pieces.In the next picture you can see I made it where I can take out the bottom bolt and the holder piece will set down below bed height to be able to carry bigger stuff on the bed. Attached Images
Reply:I used it just this evening to set an old metal cistern on a cistern stand. It is supposed to have the water coming out of a pipe and falling into the pool so it's non functional as a cistern. I set the wind mill for this guy last year. When I set the wind mill I had to extend the poles out all the way. To do this I pulled the winch line between the poles, hook to the eye on the rack and let the poles all the way to the bed. Back up to a tree and tie the head to the tree and drive forward until I can put the pins in the poles. I can pull them out by hand but the tree method is easier, well, I mean, if you have a tree.The stand for the cistern was short enough that I didn't have to do that but I did have to winch up all the way to the top of the head. Total time spent was about 15 minutes, no welding but a quick $50. Attached ImagesLast edited by Bob; 07-03-2011 at 12:27 AM.
Reply:I might also mention that when loading stuff on a trailer with an "A" frame, you can back your rig up to the object and jack knife the rig where the poles are over the object. You can then winch it up, get in the truck, pull forward until the trailer in straight behind and then let it down into the front of the trailer. I've done this many times, works like a champ and saves taking the trailer off.I don't know about the bigger trucks but for my size, I think you should have the pivots for the bottom of the poles on the bed between the axle and the back spring hangers and right over the frame. You definitely need additional framing under the bed as well. There is massive pressure there on a very small area. The ones that have them all the way to the rear can't pick up as much as it pulls the back of the truck down too much.Also with the pivots back from the edge you can put tie downs on the poles at the length that will let the poles set straight up with out falling onto the head ache rack. When you need to load something onto the back of the truck there will be room there with the poles back away from the back edge of the bed. Also you can put a clamp onto the winch line at a spot that will stop at the gin pole head when the object is just about bed height. Once the line clamp hits the head the poles will start forward, that is until they are stopped by the tie downs. When it stops you let out the winch line until the object is on the bed. One of the people I copied part of my rig from was loading an engine out of a dozer onto his bed when I drove up. I was truly impressed at the time but have used the same technique many time since.
Reply:I don't discount that you and many others have worked out some really neat tricks that you can do with the poles on a pick-up.  I can picture what you are describing.  For obvious reasons, those sort of things are just NOT a good idea on the iron I used to run.Of course, I never said I didn't lay the poles down on the headache rack, and then winch a load onto the poles on short location moves.Shhh... Don't tell.  Ok?Later,Jason
Reply:Originally Posted by BobI don't know about the bigger trucks but for my size, I think you should have the pivots for the bottom of the poles on the bed between the axle and the back spring hangers and right over the frame.
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfWith all respect to you Irish, I will have to disagree with your statements, and your logic.  I will explain my self as best I can.
Reply:I REALLY wish you would have posted up your drawings and explanations in 3 seperate posts instead of that chopped up garbled up mess that is a nightmare to follow.  I will do my best to sort through it.In my opinion, you as well made some "sweeping statements that have some possible problems." ie the pole hinges in front of the tail block.From a cursory glance, I believe you and I are more or less on the same page, just explained it differently.Gimme a few minutes please to sort through your post.Later,Jason
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfI REALLY wish you would have posted up your drawings and explanations in 3 seperate posts instead of that chopped up garbled up mess that is a nightmare to follow.  I will do my best to sort through it.
Reply:Originally Posted by irish fixitNo the block doesn't have to be behind the poles. However it does need to have the cable fairly close to the poles.Agreed - That was the point I was trying to illustrate when I responded to your initial post.  My pictures and explanations that followed clearly outline that fact. I'm attaching some drawings to try and explain my points. In the first drawing I'm showing what I'm talking about as for the tail block not raising the poles. If the distance of point A is smaller than point B then the poles will not raise but rather be pulled down into the headache rack. As long as the line coming off your winch drum is below the line coming off the pole cap and going over your roll, the poles are going to raise up - Period. The higher your poles are from horizontal, the easier they will raise up.
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfWe don't build pole trucks up here where the poles do not "diappear" below the deck surface - It wrecks the hauling or work surface.  Even the 1 Ton poles come apart and bury in the deck.And I DO see the points you wished to make.  Aside from some minor issues, we are more or less in agreement.  I would submit that BOTH of us are striving to provide what we believe to be accurate and SAFE information so that readers can construct a good working set of poles that operate well.On the minor points of contention, I will suggest again that we Repectfully Agree to Disagree.I hope I explained myself sufficiently while not being too offensive.... I'm working on that.
Reply:Very good then Sir.Let me wish you a very Happy and Enjoyable 4th of July.Later,Jason
Reply:Can some one tell me if tie back chains will hold the poles back or if you have to have a tail block?
Reply:I haven't seen Black Wolf on here in a while. Hopefully irish fixit will chime in.Tagged gin poles"Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Sorry for the slow reply. I threw my back out today and I've not felt well enough to get to the computer and reply.   I wouldn't trust it. If for no other reason than you're putting additional strain on the poles. That said I suppose that if engineered correctly it would work but there's a lot of complicated stresses involved.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:My truck is a 1970 single axle leaf spring tractor. The frame has 6" behined the rear springs and that is were the poles are hinged. Its has a hitch plate on the rear of the frame with a pintel hitch. Can i put the tail block back their or should i build some thing behind the 5 wheel? If i was to do over i would have built it totaly different but its what i got. I need to pickup and move 3500 pounds about 50 feet.
Reply:Originally Posted by Old DougMy truck is a 1970 single axle leaf spring tractor. The frame has 6" behined the rear springs and that is were the poles are hinged. Its has a hitch plate on the rear of the frame with a pintel hitch. Can i put the tail block back their or should i build some thing behind the 5 wheel? If i was to do over i would have built it totaly different but its what i got. I need to pickup and move 3500 pounds about 50 feet.
Reply:Thanks for your help irish fixit. I built this truck 5 years ago and have been useing it with no tail block or tie back chains. last summer i was loading some trucks to scrap on a very hilly farm and my poles came back over.The  cable broke the windshield i was very lucky not to have goten hurt. I knew it could happen.The truck i used before was a 3/4 chevy. I built a set of poles that had pipes that went up part way on them that when they were stood up hit the frame above the rear end. A 3/8 cable held them their. They worked very good but took a lot of extra pipe to build. I am building a tail block now. I want to put tie back chains on it also but will have to figure out how to do it because of rear of truck is to short.
Reply:Ok. Yes sounds dangerous alright.   Sounds like you're running into my problem with tie back chains. There's no place to put them where they have enough leverage to do more than stop a pole from just flopping over on you when unhooked. To be truthful I'd never even heard of tie back chains till this thread came up.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:I thought about building some kind of stand of for the tie back chains. If i was to do over i would have moved the 5 wheel ahead and put the pole hinges closer to the axle so i could of made it better for the tie back chains. The 5  wheel only is used to move trailers around.I do not use it very much or i would get a better truck and use my experience to build it better.Most of the pole trucks around here use a pipe going from the headach rack to the top of the poles.
Reply:Originally Posted by Old DougI thought about building some kind of stand of for the tie back chains. If i was to do over i would have moved the 5 wheel ahead and put the pole hinges closer to the axle so i could of made it better for the tie back chains. The 5  wheel only is used to move trailers around.I do not use it very much or i would get a better truck and use my experience to build it better.Most of the pole trucks around here use a pipe going from the headach rack to the top of the poles.
Reply:If your head ache rack is more substantial, you could tie back to it. With the larger angle, it makes the whole rig much stronger.
Reply:Hey Doug,If you could, post up some pics of your gin pole setup please.  It IS interesting to see how engineering is different regionally.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....